The Official F1 2024 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
HTP99 said:
TheDeuce said:
Dr Murdoch said:
TheDeuce said:
Are you really going to be that basic about why people are attributing blame..?
No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
I would go further, A. As I understand it the team agreed before the race that they would hold station, so Gasly would assume that he would not be attacked by Ocon at that point and B. and most importantly imo, Ocon disobeyed team instructions.No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
Lewis wouldn’t have tripped over a back-marker running his own race on new soft tyres, he’d have let him go. I can’t recall exactly what Max’s race engineer told him beforehand, but he should have been quite forceful that Ocon was several seconds a lap faster and about to unlap himself.
Sandpit Steve said:
HTP99 said:
TheDeuce said:
Dr Murdoch said:
TheDeuce said:
Are you really going to be that basic about why people are attributing blame..?
No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
I would go further, A. As I understand it the team agreed before the race that they would hold station, so Gasly would assume that he would not be attacked by Ocon at that point and B. and most importantly imo, Ocon disobeyed team instructions.No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
Lewis wouldn’t have tripped over a back-marker running his own race on new soft tyres, he’d have let him go. I can’t recall exactly what Max’s race engineer told him beforehand, but he should have been quite forceful that Ocon was several seconds a lap faster and about to unlap himself.
As I have said elsewhere, there are 3 red mist brigade members in F1 at the moment - Ocon, K Mag, and Perez. Put them in a situation like Monaco, and surprise, surprise they can’t resist lungeing into trouble at the first opportunity rather than getting a whole lap under their belt. I can’t see them surviving into next year - they are all liabilities to any team.
dobly said:
As I have said elsewhere, there are 3 red mist brigade members in F1 at the moment - Ocon, K Mag, and Perez. Put them in a situation like Monaco, and surprise, surprise they can’t resist lungeing into trouble at the first opportunity rather than getting a whole lap under their belt. I can’t see them surviving into next year - they are all liabilities to any team.
Perez is by all accounts about to be offered a contact extension by RB, suits the Verstappen's him being the second driver from what I understand. TheDeuce said:
Max knew he was there but plainly didn't expect him to block the racing line - I think most drivers in that situation (lap down) wouldn't have done that. Having established that Max must know he was there and wanting to pass, make a second obvious attempt at the next opportunity - in a way that doesn't heavily disrupt Max's line.
The way Ocon did it, there was far more risk than was necessary. I find that impossible to justify when Ocon was 'fighting' for literally nothing. That's the crux of it, whatever Max could have done better/differently, doesn't really matter. If Max had departed the line and avoided the collision, I would still think Ocon was mad to take the risk, to try so aggressively to pass the race leader who was a lap ahead.
Bonkers.
Ocon was stupid, but it takes two to tango. Max was leading the race and chose to risk it all by squeezing a lapped guy who he knew was trying to pass him on quicker tyres. They were both fighting for nothing, but one of them had a lot to lose if it went wrong. It would have affected neither of their races if he just gave him room to pass. Pretty dumb from both of them.The way Ocon did it, there was far more risk than was necessary. I find that impossible to justify when Ocon was 'fighting' for literally nothing. That's the crux of it, whatever Max could have done better/differently, doesn't really matter. If Max had departed the line and avoided the collision, I would still think Ocon was mad to take the risk, to try so aggressively to pass the race leader who was a lap ahead.
Bonkers.
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
Max knew he was there but plainly didn't expect him to block the racing line - I think most drivers in that situation (lap down) wouldn't have done that. Having established that Max must know he was there and wanting to pass, make a second obvious attempt at the next opportunity - in a way that doesn't heavily disrupt Max's line.
The way Ocon did it, there was far more risk than was necessary. I find that impossible to justify when Ocon was 'fighting' for literally nothing. That's the crux of it, whatever Max could have done better/differently, doesn't really matter. If Max had departed the line and avoided the collision, I would still think Ocon was mad to take the risk, to try so aggressively to pass the race leader who was a lap ahead.
Bonkers.
Ocon was stupid, but it takes two to tango. Max was leading the race and chose to risk it all by squeezing a lapped guy who he knew was trying to pass him on quicker tyres. They were both fighting for nothing, but one of them had a lot to lose if it went wrong. It would have affected neither of their races if he just gave him room to pass. Pretty dumb from both of them.The way Ocon did it, there was far more risk than was necessary. I find that impossible to justify when Ocon was 'fighting' for literally nothing. That's the crux of it, whatever Max could have done better/differently, doesn't really matter. If Max had departed the line and avoided the collision, I would still think Ocon was mad to take the risk, to try so aggressively to pass the race leader who was a lap ahead.
Bonkers.
Max could indeed have played it far safer.
I do think that it wasn't unreasonable for Max to assume that if Ocon were to try a pass, it would be a safe pass as opposed to an attack - because in virtually all comparable occasions that would be true, of course lapped cars don't tend to battle if they can make a pass, it's not a logical thing to do. I'm still not saying that to defend Max, I'm saying it to illustrate that Ocon, as a racer himself, should have been aware of how unlikely Max would be to worry about or plan for such an attack - that's the point, the situation was stacked with danger and uncertainty and there was nothing to gain from it.
Incidents like this are always about proportion of blame, Max carries some of the blame for the final collision. But on this occasion the debate is about Ocons recklessness. Was Ocon, all by himself, still not very reckless regardless of Max? Needlessly...? I think he was. The stewards agreed and swiftly gave him a 10 second penalty.
There was a fair amount of debate as to the portion of blame at the time. But the overriding reaction was "Ocon, WTF, who does that!?" - and that sentiment seems to have summed up his entire F1 career to date. His judgement of risk/reward is really messed up!
agree on Ocon doing a stupid move - as a professional at the level of the sport he should know that gap was going to close from where he was.
I would go further though, as Gasly - I would have absolutely ensured that resulted in a crash.
No way in a million years could you allow the personality type of Ocon to pass you like that. You'd be forever jumping out the way.
It wasn't a marginal move, it was totally st driving, but even if it had been marginal I'd have ensured there was a shunt to educate him from such attempts in the future.
The pair of them are from the same town aren't they? It's just totally the wrong personality types to have as team mates.
There are plenty of talented drivers that should be in that seat if they move Ocon on.
I would go further though, as Gasly - I would have absolutely ensured that resulted in a crash.
No way in a million years could you allow the personality type of Ocon to pass you like that. You'd be forever jumping out the way.
It wasn't a marginal move, it was totally s
t driving, but even if it had been marginal I'd have ensured there was a shunt to educate him from such attempts in the future.The pair of them are from the same town aren't they? It's just totally the wrong personality types to have as team mates.
There are plenty of talented drivers that should be in that seat if they move Ocon on.
To further muse on the potential for Andretti to take over Alpine, there has to be an attraction, especially with Pat Symonds having just joined Andretti, and there being no engine-supply complications, mainly because none of the independent teams would be interested in the current Alpine/Renault boat anchor.
It's potentially messy from a logistical and managerial perspective, with the cars being built at Enstone and the engines at Viry, but it's not a deal-breaker, Alpine seem to be determined to become another in the fine tradition of French F1 teams to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse, after the Ligier/Prost fiasco, a team whose budget was rumoured to exceed that of the front-runners without troubling the points-paying positions, before the takeover by Benetton and showing how it should be done. Followed by showing how it shouldn't be done, namely the Singapore incident. Followed by the Dani Bahar world domination bid, which turned soft and brown, sadly taking some of their suppliers with it.
As Renault/Lotus the Enstone team did seem to be rather "accident-prone".
How many of the people from Enstone who still know how to make Grand Prix winning cars, and can mould a front-running team actually remain is unclear, and there certainly seems to be a revolving door. But if Andretti and GM are looking for a team that's ripe for plucking, Alpine must be favourite.
At least Carlos Ghosn isn't lurking in the background any more.
It's potentially messy from a logistical and managerial perspective, with the cars being built at Enstone and the engines at Viry, but it's not a deal-breaker, Alpine seem to be determined to become another in the fine tradition of French F1 teams to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse, after the Ligier/Prost fiasco, a team whose budget was rumoured to exceed that of the front-runners without troubling the points-paying positions, before the takeover by Benetton and showing how it should be done. Followed by showing how it shouldn't be done, namely the Singapore incident. Followed by the Dani Bahar world domination bid, which turned soft and brown, sadly taking some of their suppliers with it.
As Renault/Lotus the Enstone team did seem to be rather "accident-prone".
How many of the people from Enstone who still know how to make Grand Prix winning cars, and can mould a front-running team actually remain is unclear, and there certainly seems to be a revolving door. But if Andretti and GM are looking for a team that's ripe for plucking, Alpine must be favourite.
At least Carlos Ghosn isn't lurking in the background any more.
Esteban Ocon off Williams’ shortlist amid concerns of ‘not being a team player’
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears st in the woods.
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears s
t in the woods.FourWheelDrift said:
Esteban Ocon off Williams’ shortlist amid concerns of ‘not being a team player’
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears st in the woods.
And JV won’t be the only TP thinking this. Ocon is making himself very undesirable. https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears s
t in the woods.DanielSan said:
wiliferus said:
And JV won’t be the only TP thinking this. Ocon is making himself very undesirable.
I've never understood why he's seen as a particularly desirable driver to be honest.Nova Gyna said:
DanielSan said:
wiliferus said:
And JV won’t be the only TP thinking this. Ocon is making himself very undesirable.
I've never understood why he's seen as a particularly desirable driver to be honest.I think that was probably the extent of the calculation.
FourWheelDrift said:
Esteban Ocon off Williams’ shortlist amid concerns of ‘not being a team player’
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears st in the woods.
Invented by some clickbait website, and accredited to no one , how the fhttps://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears s
t in the woods.k is Sargent a team player, he can only just drive the carAdrian W said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Esteban Ocon off Williams’ shortlist amid concerns of ‘not being a team player’
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears st in the woods.
Invented by some clickbait website, and accredited to no one https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1049660/1/esteban-oc...
In other news the sky is blue and bears s
t in the woods.Adrian W said:
DanielSan said:
I've never understood why he's seen as a particularly desirable driver to be honest.
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