Ministry of Crap Design - Modern Car Ergonomics
Discussion
I'd like to start a rant & open discussion about modern car ergonomics & design 
Many of a modern cars features require greater driver attention & input than the old methods, please explain how, why or who decided any of this stuff was a good idea please. I've been in design & engineering for many years, so have some idea of the thought process involved in designing nice ergonomic things, however modern car design leaves an awful lot to be desired!!!
Car design people responsible please put your hands up now
to be shot at dawn
Heater controls in many cars with climate control
1) To reduce the fan speed from 4 to 3 you have to press the button 3 times to reduce the speed by one.
2) Temperature controls where you have to press the up or down button multiple times to vary from hot to mild. Meanwhile reading what it says all whilst driving along.
3) Blow direction, again having to press multiple times, to move it one way whilst looking at the screen to see where it's at
When a twisty knob does it with one motion & you don't need to read it!!!!! Take for example my Volvo V70 it has the classic 2 knob one fan speed slider system, its brilliantly simple, requires no visual input & imho near perfect.
LCD screen controls & Displays Especially ones that don't dim at night!! why???? I'm especially thinking of many Renaults, Nissans & Mitsubishi's
Electronic Handbrakes Ok I understand the hillstart ones maybe, but are they really a benefit especially as many cars with them don't have hillstart or autorelease as standard eg new Toyota's
Foot Operated Handbrakes Why? never ever seen the benefit
Non linear wiper speeds What the effing hell is all that about? Up is intermittent, down one is off, down another is on, lowest is fast. Why not just intermittent, fast & faster in a linear fashion? Ford & Volvo designers stand up to be shot!
BMW's E46 Ultimate driving machine my ass, hugely offset pedals, handbrakes obscured by the armrest even though it has an "afterthought cutout". Pedal arrangment that makes heel & toe possible but rather awkward & this is supposed to be a driving machine???
Bulb access that requires hours at a dealer Cars should not be allowed type approval or be allowed on the road if you can't access a blown bulb at the roadside in a miniute without tools, in the dark on a wet & windy night. Why is this not the case, which feckwhit designer signed that idea off.
Please discuss & or add your own modern car annoyances. I'd be interested to see what car features we'd all like to have, which should be binned & what car we'd end up with if you comibined all the bits for one brilliant one & awful one
Many of a modern cars features require greater driver attention & input than the old methods, please explain how, why or who decided any of this stuff was a good idea please. I've been in design & engineering for many years, so have some idea of the thought process involved in designing nice ergonomic things, however modern car design leaves an awful lot to be desired!!!
Car design people responsible please put your hands up now
to be shot at dawnHeater controls in many cars with climate control
1) To reduce the fan speed from 4 to 3 you have to press the button 3 times to reduce the speed by one.
2) Temperature controls where you have to press the up or down button multiple times to vary from hot to mild. Meanwhile reading what it says all whilst driving along.
3) Blow direction, again having to press multiple times, to move it one way whilst looking at the screen to see where it's at
When a twisty knob does it with one motion & you don't need to read it!!!!! Take for example my Volvo V70 it has the classic 2 knob one fan speed slider system, its brilliantly simple, requires no visual input & imho near perfect.
LCD screen controls & Displays Especially ones that don't dim at night!! why???? I'm especially thinking of many Renaults, Nissans & Mitsubishi's
Electronic Handbrakes Ok I understand the hillstart ones maybe, but are they really a benefit especially as many cars with them don't have hillstart or autorelease as standard eg new Toyota's
Foot Operated Handbrakes Why? never ever seen the benefit
Non linear wiper speeds What the effing hell is all that about? Up is intermittent, down one is off, down another is on, lowest is fast. Why not just intermittent, fast & faster in a linear fashion? Ford & Volvo designers stand up to be shot!
BMW's E46 Ultimate driving machine my ass, hugely offset pedals, handbrakes obscured by the armrest even though it has an "afterthought cutout". Pedal arrangment that makes heel & toe possible but rather awkward & this is supposed to be a driving machine???
Bulb access that requires hours at a dealer Cars should not be allowed type approval or be allowed on the road if you can't access a blown bulb at the roadside in a miniute without tools, in the dark on a wet & windy night. Why is this not the case, which feckwhit designer signed that idea off.
Please discuss & or add your own modern car annoyances. I'd be interested to see what car features we'd all like to have, which should be binned & what car we'd end up with if you comibined all the bits for one brilliant one & awful one
I present the king of useless design - the Smart Car
glovebox - no need for one of them
window switches - lets just put one per side so the driver still has to lean over to lower the window
interior light - no point putting one in the roof, lets put a 1w one at the bottom of the dash
heater controls - put them all over the place and make them impossible to read at night
gearbox - let's put in an up and down shift but make sure the car overrides anything you do if it decides you're wrong
warning buzzers - lets make sure to put a really loud one in if you leave the lights on. Reason being no one would ever want to leave the sidelights on when parked
handling - no need to bother with that at all
glovebox - no need for one of them
window switches - lets just put one per side so the driver still has to lean over to lower the window
interior light - no point putting one in the roof, lets put a 1w one at the bottom of the dash
heater controls - put them all over the place and make them impossible to read at night
gearbox - let's put in an up and down shift but make sure the car overrides anything you do if it decides you're wrong
warning buzzers - lets make sure to put a really loud one in if you leave the lights on. Reason being no one would ever want to leave the sidelights on when parked
handling - no need to bother with that at all
Negative Creep said:
I present the king of useless design - the Smart Car
glovebox - no need for one of them
window switches - lets just put one per side so the driver still has to lean over to lower the window
interior light - no point putting one in the roof, lets put a 1w one at the bottom of the dash
heater controls - put them all over the place and make them impossible to read at night
gearbox - let's put in an up and down shift but make sure the car overrides anything you do if it decides you're wrong
warning buzzers - lets make sure to put a really loud one in if you leave the lights on. Reason being no one would ever want to leave the sidelights on when parked
handling - no need to bother with that at all
My wife has a Smart, so, if I may be bold.....glovebox - no need for one of them
window switches - lets just put one per side so the driver still has to lean over to lower the window
interior light - no point putting one in the roof, lets put a 1w one at the bottom of the dash
heater controls - put them all over the place and make them impossible to read at night
gearbox - let's put in an up and down shift but make sure the car overrides anything you do if it decides you're wrong
warning buzzers - lets make sure to put a really loud one in if you leave the lights on. Reason being no one would ever want to leave the sidelights on when parked
handling - no need to bother with that at all
Glovebox, ours has a storage box under the passenger`s seat. The handbook lives in it`s folder which I`ve attached to the carpet behind the driver`s seat with velcro.
Window switches, indeed there is only one on each door. I`m a strapping 5 foot 8 inches but I can lean accross to operate the nearside window with no problem at all.
Interior light, it has two. One as you point out on the lower dash, another one in the roof.
Heater controls, they are in one place (within a 15 cm area) and are backlit. No dramas here either.
Gearbox, it`s pretty pump, I`ll give you that.
Warning buzzers, at least it hasn`t got the "You haven`t got your seatbelt on" buzzer!
Handling, Hmmm, it`s certainly interesting isn`t it........
The headlight bulbs are a pain to change though, luckily I`ve learnt to take the front of the car off totally in about 10 minutes so I don`t have too much of a beef about replacing them.
Ergonomically I don`t think it`s too bad.
volkswagen audi group seats.
Why do you feel the need to put a support right in my kidneys? I don't consider myself extremely tall, 6'2", but why are the seats not adjustable for someone of my height? How is it that Honda, designed by a nation who aren't reknowned for their lankiness, can make a small car that I can get in adjust the seat to make it comfortable and fit my legs in,drive for 3 hours and feel fresh at the end of the journey. In the audi half an hour is enough for my back and I walk like I have arthritis for about ten minutes afterwards.
Why do you feel the need to put a support right in my kidneys? I don't consider myself extremely tall, 6'2", but why are the seats not adjustable for someone of my height? How is it that Honda, designed by a nation who aren't reknowned for their lankiness, can make a small car that I can get in adjust the seat to make it comfortable and fit my legs in,drive for 3 hours and feel fresh at the end of the journey. In the audi half an hour is enough for my back and I walk like I have arthritis for about ten minutes afterwards.
cptsideways said:
Heater controls in many cars with climate control
1) To reduce the fan speed from 4 to 3 you have to press the button 3 times to reduce the speed by one.
2) Temperature controls where you have to press the up or down button multiple times to vary from hot to mild. Meanwhile reading what it says all whilst driving along.
3) Blow direction, again having to press multiple times, to move it one way whilst looking at the screen to see where it's at
When a twisty knob does it with one motion & you don't need to read it!!!!! Take for example my Volvo V70 it has the classic 2 knob one fan speed slider system, its brilliantly simple, requires no visual input & imho near perfect.
The last generation of BMWs (E46 and E39) committed some of these sins. The current ones have moved back to rotary dials.1) To reduce the fan speed from 4 to 3 you have to press the button 3 times to reduce the speed by one.
2) Temperature controls where you have to press the up or down button multiple times to vary from hot to mild. Meanwhile reading what it says all whilst driving along.
3) Blow direction, again having to press multiple times, to move it one way whilst looking at the screen to see where it's at
When a twisty knob does it with one motion & you don't need to read it!!!!! Take for example my Volvo V70 it has the classic 2 knob one fan speed slider system, its brilliantly simple, requires no visual input & imho near perfect.
cptsideways said:
LCD screen controls & Displays Especially ones that don't dim at night!! why???? I'm especially thinking of many Renaults, Nissans & Mitsubishi's
Electronic Handbrakes Ok I understand the hillstart ones maybe, but are they really a benefit especially as many cars with them don't have hillstart or autorelease as standard eg new Toyota's
Foot Operated Handbrakes Why? never ever seen the benefit
I hate these things. I don't like the Aston Martin throwback fly-off handbrake either - it's not designed for the manual gearbox versions.Electronic Handbrakes Ok I understand the hillstart ones maybe, but are they really a benefit especially as many cars with them don't have hillstart or autorelease as standard eg new Toyota's
Foot Operated Handbrakes Why? never ever seen the benefit
cptsideways said:
Non linear wiper speeds What the effing hell is all that about? Up is intermittent, down one is off, down another is on, lowest is fast. Why not just intermittent, fast & faster in a linear fashion? Ford & Volvo designers stand up to be shot!
Down = on? Do you generally drive Japanese cars? up = on!cptsideways said:
BMW's E46 Ultimate driving machine my ass, hugely offset pedals, handbrakes obscured by the armrest even though it has an "afterthought cutout". Pedal arrangment that makes heel & toe possible but rather awkward & this is supposed to be a driving machine???
I'm 6'2" with size 11 feet and I find the pedals on the E46 close to ideal (they are a bit offset, so not ideal). Hans Stueck seems to like them too.Japanese cars - why can't they switch the stalks around for models sold in Europe?
Porsche's PDK controls - you've just got them completely wrong, guys. The rest of the world is right.
Nick_F said:
Indicators on the right stalk. Did the EU fail to notice that we drive on the left over here? Or did they hope to make us change our minds?
?? do you mean they should or should not be on the right?In theory, the right stalk is *correct* as you can change gear and indicate at the same time, e.g when on roundabouts. most steering wheell & stalk arrangements are from LHD cars so that's what we get to the point that now it's the general convention!
cptsideways said:
Bulb access that requires hours at a dealer Cars should not be allowed type approval or be allowed on the road if you can't access a blown bulb at the roadside in a miniute without tools, in the dark on a wet & windy night. Why is this not the case, which feckwhit designer signed that idea off.
+1Since the lenses on most modern cars are the size of Georgian bay windows, why not design them to have their bulbs removed from the front?
I like your idea ref type approval. Isn't it mandatory (or just advisable) that bulbs are carried in some European countries? Do you also need to carry the technician, roll cab, trolley jack and axle stands too?
mat205125 said:
cptsideways said:
Bulb access that requires hours at a dealer Cars should not be allowed type approval or be allowed on the road if you can't access a blown bulb at the roadside in a miniute without tools, in the dark on a wet & windy night. Why is this not the case, which feckwhit designer signed that idea off.
+1Since the lenses on most modern cars are the size of Georgian bay windows, why not design them to have their bulbs removed from the front?
I like your idea ref type approval. Isn't it mandatory (or just advisable) that bulbs are carried in some European countries? Do you also need to carry the technician, roll cab, trolley jack and axle stands too?
I too find E46 pedals close to perfect. Heel and toe is easy, and they're not offset if you think about where your left foot is most of the time...
My bad design awards would go to BMW's iDrive, which is more effective at keeping your eyes off the road than Kylie getting undressed in the back seat; and almost all car doors, which seen determined to accelerate back at you as soon as you've opened them. Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.
My bad design awards would go to BMW's iDrive, which is more effective at keeping your eyes off the road than Kylie getting undressed in the back seat; and almost all car doors, which seen determined to accelerate back at you as soon as you've opened them. Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.
RobM77 said:
I too find E46 pedals close to perfect. Heel and toe is easy, and they're not offset if you think about where your left foot is most of the time...
My bad design awards would go to BMW's iDrive, which is more effective at keeping your eyes off the road than Kylie getting undressed in the back seat; and almost all car doors, which seen determined to accelerate back at you as soon as you've opened them. Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.
Clarkson made a good point about iDrive recently in the Times, which makes a lot of sense to me. As it is a German car, its home market (And probably most of their market by a long way TBH) are left hand drive. If you think of the iDrive controller as like a sort of mouse, and then think how hard it is to use a computer mouse with your left hand, it might go some way to explaining why us brits seem to have such a dislike for it.My bad design awards would go to BMW's iDrive, which is more effective at keeping your eyes off the road than Kylie getting undressed in the back seat; and almost all car doors, which seen determined to accelerate back at you as soon as you've opened them. Oh, and not forgetting steering wheels, which always seem to be about three inches too far away.
Nick_F said:
Indicators on the right stalk. Did the EU fail to notice that we drive on the left over here? Or did they hope to make us change our minds?
Indicators should be on the right side, opposite the gear lever. We're the only country that puts indicator stalk and gear lever on the same side.Car designers could learn a lot from sitting in a truck and finding all the controls.
I'm sat in the cab at the moment and the furthest I have to move my hand for any control that I might need whilst driving is about 12 inches. Everything is to hand and the seat and steering wheel are fully adjustable.
I'm sat in the cab at the moment and the furthest I have to move my hand for any control that I might need whilst driving is about 12 inches. Everything is to hand and the seat and steering wheel are fully adjustable.
heebeegeetee said:
Nick_F said:
Indicators on the right stalk. Did the EU fail to notice that we drive on the left over here? Or did they hope to make us change our minds?
Indicators should be on the right side, opposite the gear lever. We're the only country that puts indicator stalk and gear lever on the same side.heebeegeetee said:
Nick_F said:
Indicators on the right stalk. Did the EU fail to notice that we drive on the left over here? Or did they hope to make us change our minds?
Indicators should be on the right side, opposite the gear lever. We're the only country that puts indicator stalk and gear lever on the same side.Dracoro said:
Nick_F said:
Indicators on the right stalk. Did the EU fail to notice that we drive on the left over here? Or did they hope to make us change our minds?
?? do you mean they should or should not be on the right?In theory, the right stalk is *correct* as you can change gear and indicate at the same time, e.g when on roundabouts. most steering wheell & stalk arrangements are from LHD cars so that's what we get to the point that now it's the general convention!
Mercedes single stalk. Don't know if this just applies to the B-Class or if its the whole range, but its highly annoying. All the controls are placed on the left-hand stalk, theres no right hand stalk. The permenant digital km/h display on the computer screen is also a bit daft. We are not in France FFS, I don't need to see my speed in km/h, as well as mph. Other annoyance with this car is the side mirrors. They look nice, but they don't fold in (unlike pretty much every car on the market) 
A few Mid-90's Fords (Escort and I think the Fiesta also) had the switches for the front electric windows down between the gearstick and handbrake. I can see why they did it - to save on the wiring and switches that would be needed if they placed them on the doors - but they are almost completely impossible to find by touch, you always have to look down to see where they are. Also, if you get the top-spec models, the electric boot release button is right next to them, so you can imagine what tends to happen...
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