Recommend me a book about the troubles in Ireland
Discussion
This is a subject you really have to see both sides of in a bit of depth. I suggest:-
Guerilla Days in Ireland by Tom Barry
The IRA by Tim Pat Coogan
I would also suggest Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War, by Doherty & Macgregor, with particular reference to Chapter 25 if you really want to understand the nature of British Government manipulation of the Irish situation in that period.
There are plenty of ‘shoot em up’ memoirs from ex Para or SAS soldiers, often exciting but not very analytical.
Guerilla Days in Ireland by Tom Barry
The IRA by Tim Pat Coogan
I would also suggest Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War, by Doherty & Macgregor, with particular reference to Chapter 25 if you really want to understand the nature of British Government manipulation of the Irish situation in that period.
There are plenty of ‘shoot em up’ memoirs from ex Para or SAS soldiers, often exciting but not very analytical.
How far back in time do you want to go?
The "trouble" stems from British/English involvement in Ireland which some would claim goes back to 1169 when the Normans arrived in Ireland and eventually came to control the whole country.
Others might take the English Reformation as a point where problems began as that established a religious split between the two countries.
And some others might say that the abolition of the Irish Parliament and the Act of Union of 1801 which brought Ireland into the United Kingdom might be a point in history worth starting at.
Key moments after 1801 would be
The Irish Potato Famines of 1845 to 1847
The establishment of Irish revolutionary movements from the United Irishmen through to The Fenians, The Irish Republican Brotherhood and the the Irish Republican Army.
The fight for Irish Home Rule 1880 to 1913
The 1916 Rising
The War of Independence 1920/21
The Anglo/Irish Treaty of 1921 and the establishment of the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland as separate political entities divided by a common border.
The "trouble" stems from British/English involvement in Ireland which some would claim goes back to 1169 when the Normans arrived in Ireland and eventually came to control the whole country.
Others might take the English Reformation as a point where problems began as that established a religious split between the two countries.
And some others might say that the abolition of the Irish Parliament and the Act of Union of 1801 which brought Ireland into the United Kingdom might be a point in history worth starting at.
Key moments after 1801 would be
The Irish Potato Famines of 1845 to 1847
The establishment of Irish revolutionary movements from the United Irishmen through to The Fenians, The Irish Republican Brotherhood and the the Irish Republican Army.
The fight for Irish Home Rule 1880 to 1913
The 1916 Rising
The War of Independence 1920/21
The Anglo/Irish Treaty of 1921 and the establishment of the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland as separate political entities divided by a common border.
You are right, but I don't think that the OP wanted to argue the toss about the rights and wrongs, he wanted some good books on the subject.
To me the problem was the classic absentee landlord syndrome. Going back millennia, Ireland had a strong Celtic culture. They launched Gaelic invasions of Britain after that had been weakened by Roman invasion then abandonment. Others will know that better than me. Then you have a Norman invasion, following which the country becomes an appendage to Britain. The focus of power is in London, and Ireland becomes simply the booty of war. They are treated the way defeated and subject nations are always treated, namely as a quaint rather second rate place which is much like Britain but a bit s
t, populated by yokels and ripe for colonisation by anyone prepared to take it on. Cue some hardbitten former Cromwellian soldiers, not unlike the Boers and possibly even related. It's how Britain lost America. Potato famines in 1848 handled very poorly because the victims were a long way away and outside daily consciousness (though the Lowland and Highland Scots caught up in the Clearances were not handled significantly more humanely.That was the point of my reference to the First World War history. Ireland was treated like a political chesspiece to help win the great game against, at that time, Germany, without regard to the consequences in Ireland.
None of the uprisings came to much until Britain over reacted in 1916 and handed the Irish the greatest catalogue of martyrs the world has ever seen, leading inevitably to independence. Northern Ireland is the rump of that and it is a tragic problem which can only be resolved by people trying to forget their differences and live together.
Ireland is a different nation, a different culture, and have a different and unique outlook. It is another country and better independent. Scotland, though treated in some ways the same is so much more integrated into Britain that it is better within the UK. That's how I see it anyway.
To me the problem was the classic absentee landlord syndrome. Going back millennia, Ireland had a strong Celtic culture. They launched Gaelic invasions of Britain after that had been weakened by Roman invasion then abandonment. Others will know that better than me. Then you have a Norman invasion, following which the country becomes an appendage to Britain. The focus of power is in London, and Ireland becomes simply the booty of war. They are treated the way defeated and subject nations are always treated, namely as a quaint rather second rate place which is much like Britain but a bit s
t, populated by yokels and ripe for colonisation by anyone prepared to take it on. Cue some hardbitten former Cromwellian soldiers, not unlike the Boers and possibly even related. It's how Britain lost America. Potato famines in 1848 handled very poorly because the victims were a long way away and outside daily consciousness (though the Lowland and Highland Scots caught up in the Clearances were not handled significantly more humanely.That was the point of my reference to the First World War history. Ireland was treated like a political chesspiece to help win the great game against, at that time, Germany, without regard to the consequences in Ireland. None of the uprisings came to much until Britain over reacted in 1916 and handed the Irish the greatest catalogue of martyrs the world has ever seen, leading inevitably to independence. Northern Ireland is the rump of that and it is a tragic problem which can only be resolved by people trying to forget their differences and live together.
Ireland is a different nation, a different culture, and have a different and unique outlook. It is another country and better independent. Scotland, though treated in some ways the same is so much more integrated into Britain that it is better within the UK. That's how I see it anyway.
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 19th March 20:09
cardigankid said:
None of the uprisings came to much until Britain over reacted in 1916 and handed the Irish the greatest catalogue of martyrs the world has ever see
If you want a reasonable book on the Easter Rising, try Rebels, by Peter de Rosa.Don't expect it to be balanced, though: most of the histories of the Irish troubles, and this is no exception, are written with a strongly pro-Irish bias.
I don't think it's possible to get a single book on this subject. It stretches back 800 years, like it or not, so you're going to have to read a few. Plus the more recent the events I think you will get biased accounts on both sides.
Someone has mentioned "The IRA" by Tim Pat Coogan. Personally speaking I don't think it's biased in favour or against the IRA, so I would recommend that book which (if memory serves me right) documents the IRA from it's inception from the Irish Brotherhood through to and beyond the cease fire in the 90's.
Another book from Tim Pat Coogan is "The Famine Plot". This documents the famine and Britain's role in it. It's brutal reading, and at least gives you a bit more background to the sentiment the British held for the Irish during the 1800's and the early 1900's.
A book I bought years ago on the subject, which is (I think) was required reading for Irish kids in history classes is a book called "The Irish War of Independence" by Michael Hopkinson. That deals specifically with the uprising of 1916 and the British response in the form of the Black and Tans in 1920/21.
I don't know of any books in regard to the Unionist responses to the IRA, or the Unionist side of the story. Although from taking the black cab tour of Belfast a year or two ago I think you get to experience the sentiment far more quickly and vividly than you'd get from any book.
Finally another book I would suggest is "The Falling Angels" by John Walsh. It documents what it was like to be the children of Irish immigrants in the UK. That gives an insight in to the upbringing and experiences they had living in England with everything going on.
Someone has mentioned "The IRA" by Tim Pat Coogan. Personally speaking I don't think it's biased in favour or against the IRA, so I would recommend that book which (if memory serves me right) documents the IRA from it's inception from the Irish Brotherhood through to and beyond the cease fire in the 90's.
Another book from Tim Pat Coogan is "The Famine Plot". This documents the famine and Britain's role in it. It's brutal reading, and at least gives you a bit more background to the sentiment the British held for the Irish during the 1800's and the early 1900's.
A book I bought years ago on the subject, which is (I think) was required reading for Irish kids in history classes is a book called "The Irish War of Independence" by Michael Hopkinson. That deals specifically with the uprising of 1916 and the British response in the form of the Black and Tans in 1920/21.
I don't know of any books in regard to the Unionist responses to the IRA, or the Unionist side of the story. Although from taking the black cab tour of Belfast a year or two ago I think you get to experience the sentiment far more quickly and vividly than you'd get from any book.
Finally another book I would suggest is "The Falling Angels" by John Walsh. It documents what it was like to be the children of Irish immigrants in the UK. That gives an insight in to the upbringing and experiences they had living in England with everything going on.
cardigankid said:
To me the problem was the classic absentee landlord syndrome. Going back millennia, Ireland had a strong Celtic culture. They launched Gaelic invasions of Britain after that had been weakened by Roman invasion then abandonment. Others will know that better than me. Then you have a Norman invasion, following which the country becomes an appendage to Britain. The focus of power is in London, and Ireland becomes simply the booty of war. They are treated the way defeated and subject nations are always treated, namely as a quaint rather second rate place which is much like Britain but a bit st, populated by yokels and ripe for colonisation by anyone prepared to take it on. Cue some hardbitten former Cromwellian soldiers, not unlike the Boers and possibly even related. It's how Britain lost America. Potato famines in 1848 handled very poorly because the victims were a long way away and outside daily consciousness (though the Lowland and Highland Scots caught up in the Clearances were not handled significantly more humanely.That was the point of my reference to the First World War history. Ireland was treated like a political chesspiece to help win the great game against, at that time, Germany, without regard to the consequences in Ireland.
A good book for you would be "How The Irish Saved Civilisation" by Thomas Cahill. It documents the Irish culture before Roman invasion and what happened after. It's a fantastic read, very interesting really, how the Irish moved to places like Scotland in little huts and basically made copies of the books and stories that they found from the Romans. t, populated by yokels and ripe for colonisation by anyone prepared to take it on. Cue some hardbitten former Cromwellian soldiers, not unlike the Boers and possibly even related. It's how Britain lost America. Potato famines in 1848 handled very poorly because the victims were a long way away and outside daily consciousness (though the Lowland and Highland Scots caught up in the Clearances were not handled significantly more humanely.That was the point of my reference to the First World War history. Ireland was treated like a political chesspiece to help win the great game against, at that time, Germany, without regard to the consequences in Ireland. Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 19th March 20:09
Edited by sgtBerbatov on Friday 29th March 08:47
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Trinity by Leon Uris.
Yes, that's a good one if you prefer a novel - but be aware that it's fiction.Mind you, I should have added that 'Rebels', that I recommended earlier as a book about the Easter Rising, is also written as a novel, despite being historically factual and only using actual characters and events.
A relatively recent book is Milkman by Anna Burns. It brings to life the fear of even being perceived to have said the wrong thing.
It's written from the viewpoint of a citizen in the first person in a unique style. No names or towns are mentioned, instead she refers to the characters by their relationship to the writer (e.g. "older sister", "the usual place", etc).
Actually, it won the Booker Prize in 2018.
My favourite is Puckoon, by Spike Milligan. Brilliant and very nuts, as you'd expect.
It's written from the viewpoint of a citizen in the first person in a unique style. No names or towns are mentioned, instead she refers to the characters by their relationship to the writer (e.g. "older sister", "the usual place", etc).
Actually, it won the Booker Prize in 2018.
My favourite is Puckoon, by Spike Milligan. Brilliant and very nuts, as you'd expect.
OK, it's not a book, but I've watched the first two in this series and it's been fascinating so far.
Spotlight on the Troubles: A Secret History
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c47
No doubt someone more knowledgeable than me would be able to pick holes in it and/or find bias, but to me it seems a very level showing of events and not done in the modern sensationalist way. It covers a lot of the headlines that we've all heard of, but there's a lot in there that I never knew about.
Not an easy watch by any means, but well worth it.
Spotlight on the Troubles: A Secret History
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c47
No doubt someone more knowledgeable than me would be able to pick holes in it and/or find bias, but to me it seems a very level showing of events and not done in the modern sensationalist way. It covers a lot of the headlines that we've all heard of, but there's a lot in there that I never knew about.
Not an easy watch by any means, but well worth it.
Nothing stands on its own, and that is a significant problem with all history, not just Ireland.
For instance, the potato famine was terrible. Relief was sent in, but too late in the eyes of most. On its own, it looks as if the USA pushing for it to be an act of genocide is a slam dunk. However, and it is a big one, also read about what was going on in England, and to a slightly lesser extent (according to many reports, although, of course, they might not be accurate) in Wales. There were more deaths from starvation on this side of the Irish Sea. The belief was that individuals should look out for themselves. Workhouses were brought in to overcome the problem of the starving. In reality, getting them off the street so as not to be a spectacle. They lasted until the mid 30s, my father having to walk past one on his way to school
Read also the poor laws. These, or at least the belief in them, continued up until WWII.
Further, in England, it was normal for corpses of starving peasants to be at the side of the road. You can't understand the potato famine without reading Rural Rides. Then there's the Battle of Waterloo, the removal of any threat to the UK from the sea. The Vagrancy Acts were brought it to further reduce the ability of the poor to offend the eye. These were still in existence, in modified form, when I joined the police in 1975.
Ireland was a part of the UK at the time, so should be viewed according to what was happening as a whole. Whilst few in authority gave a damn what happened to the Irish peasants, beyond limiting profits, the same mind-set went for the rest of the UK.
The so-called troubles, at least that bit since 1969, was, in fact, a civil war, one without set pieces but still a war as such. The way it was fought, with all its errors and horrors, should be viewed with the inclusion of how other countries dealt with their civil wars.
The Irish troubles is a history of the UK and should be looked at from all sides. One aspect to take care with is propaganda. You can still read histories of food being taken away from Ireland during the famine when in point of fact, easily found port documents show that there was a net import from other parts of the UK. You'll find that the USA saved the lives of many by bringing in relief. That's not so much not quite right as wrong. The same problems arise when researching the history from 1969.
The truth is always hidden in history of course. Just don't take it seriously.
For instance, the potato famine was terrible. Relief was sent in, but too late in the eyes of most. On its own, it looks as if the USA pushing for it to be an act of genocide is a slam dunk. However, and it is a big one, also read about what was going on in England, and to a slightly lesser extent (according to many reports, although, of course, they might not be accurate) in Wales. There were more deaths from starvation on this side of the Irish Sea. The belief was that individuals should look out for themselves. Workhouses were brought in to overcome the problem of the starving. In reality, getting them off the street so as not to be a spectacle. They lasted until the mid 30s, my father having to walk past one on his way to school
Read also the poor laws. These, or at least the belief in them, continued up until WWII.
Further, in England, it was normal for corpses of starving peasants to be at the side of the road. You can't understand the potato famine without reading Rural Rides. Then there's the Battle of Waterloo, the removal of any threat to the UK from the sea. The Vagrancy Acts were brought it to further reduce the ability of the poor to offend the eye. These were still in existence, in modified form, when I joined the police in 1975.
Ireland was a part of the UK at the time, so should be viewed according to what was happening as a whole. Whilst few in authority gave a damn what happened to the Irish peasants, beyond limiting profits, the same mind-set went for the rest of the UK.
The so-called troubles, at least that bit since 1969, was, in fact, a civil war, one without set pieces but still a war as such. The way it was fought, with all its errors and horrors, should be viewed with the inclusion of how other countries dealt with their civil wars.
The Irish troubles is a history of the UK and should be looked at from all sides. One aspect to take care with is propaganda. You can still read histories of food being taken away from Ireland during the famine when in point of fact, easily found port documents show that there was a net import from other parts of the UK. You'll find that the USA saved the lives of many by bringing in relief. That's not so much not quite right as wrong. The same problems arise when researching the history from 1969.
The truth is always hidden in history of course. Just don't take it seriously.
You wonder if folk actually read the title,
The " troubles " are known to all who know, as the timeline 1968 to the present , that's all he/she wants to know about.
But as usual we get the know alls with anti-Brit agendas wanting to bring up Oliver Cromwell, The Famine, King Billy,
The Normans, even the Eurovision Song Contest, and all the other cast members of the Oirish tragedy.
The " troubles " are known to all who know, as the timeline 1968 to the present , that's all he/she wants to know about.
But as usual we get the know alls with anti-Brit agendas wanting to bring up Oliver Cromwell, The Famine, King Billy,
The Normans, even the Eurovision Song Contest, and all the other cast members of the Oirish tragedy.
Gassing Station | Books and Literature | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff