Books: A Song of Ice and Fire [SPOILERS]
Discussion
Season 1 - Game of Thrones has finished on TV and a lot of people are reading the books or have read and re-read the books.
Thought I'd start this thread so we can discuss the books that are currently published - all the way up to book 4 without fear of ruining the story for others.
Expect this to contain spoilers for all the published books.
When book 5 comes out next month please don't discuss that (or avoid the thread) for a few weeks please!
Thought I'd start this thread so we can discuss the books that are currently published - all the way up to book 4 without fear of ruining the story for others.
Expect this to contain spoilers for all the published books.
When book 5 comes out next month please don't discuss that (or avoid the thread) for a few weeks please!
I'd put this int he Books section but there isn't one so TV etc. will have to do.
I've just ordered the books but I've read a lot of synopses so I'm pretty much up to speed with the general shape of the story. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this all pans out. There's likely to be at least 2 more books after number 5 next month, so I believe. I will be quite upset if HBO decides to drop the series part way through but nothing surprises me after they killed off Deadwood (and numerous other excellent TV shows).
It'll all depend on the ratings if HBO keep it up but they've admitted to wrongly cancelling a number of shows prematurely, Deadwood included.
It's frustrating having finished book 4 a while abck that book 5 has been outstanding for so long - they allegedly cover teh same time period as each other but book 4 is based in and around Kings Landing (and plots that start there) and book 5 primarily 'elsewhere'.
Much of the material was written, according to GRRM's author's note, while in book 4 which he split into 4 & 5. If that's actually the case then it's about the longes gap between writing and editing I can imagine! Lazy bugger!
It's frustrating having finished book 4 a while abck that book 5 has been outstanding for so long - they allegedly cover teh same time period as each other but book 4 is based in and around Kings Landing (and plots that start there) and book 5 primarily 'elsewhere'.
Much of the material was written, according to GRRM's author's note, while in book 4 which he split into 4 & 5. If that's actually the case then it's about the longes gap between writing and editing I can imagine! Lazy bugger!
IainT said:
It'll all depend on the ratings if HBO keep it up but they've admitted to wrongly cancelling a number of shows prematurely, Deadwood included.
It's frustrating having finished book 4 a while abck that book 5 has been outstanding for so long - they allegedly cover teh same time period as each other but book 4 is based in and around Kings Landing (and plots that start there) and book 5 primarily 'elsewhere'.
Much of the material was written, according to GRRM's author's note, while in book 4 which he split into 4 & 5. If that's actually the case then it's about the longes gap between writing and editing I can imagine! Lazy bugger!
Yes I read exactly the same about the timlines. I fear that, when I've read the first 4 books, and managed to buy a reasonably-priced paperback of book 5 later in the year, I'll have to wait *years* before book 6 is available, and then book 7. By then I wonder if I'll give a hoot.It's frustrating having finished book 4 a while abck that book 5 has been outstanding for so long - they allegedly cover teh same time period as each other but book 4 is based in and around Kings Landing (and plots that start there) and book 5 primarily 'elsewhere'.
Much of the material was written, according to GRRM's author's note, while in book 4 which he split into 4 & 5. If that's actually the case then it's about the longes gap between writing and editing I can imagine! Lazy bugger!
I hated LOTR. Couldn't get into the whole fantasy thing at all. And even though ASOIAF is more "adult" in its writing style, there are so many questions I have about why their culture is different to ours that I wonder if Martin will try to address them. For example, why is this world locked into a middle ages scenario for thousands of years? Isn't there any scientific dicovery? Hasn't anyone mapped any more land than what we're presented with? Doesn't anyone ask questions why the seasons last as long as they do? Etc etc etc...
I think I just find it hard to totally suspend disbelief given that he has taken such great pains to write such detailed accounts of people's characters and the political machinations. Perhaps it's the scientist/engineer in me.
Mars said:
For example, why is this world locked into a middle ages scenario for thousands of years? Isn't there any scientific dicovery? Hasn't anyone mapped any more land than what we're presented with? Doesn't anyone ask questions why the seasons last as long as they do? Etc etc etc...
I think I just find it hard to totally suspend disbelief given that he has taken such great pains to write such detailed accounts of people's characters and the political machinations. Perhaps it's the scientist/engineer in me.
The technologial progress 'issue' is one that many fantasy books with long histories don't deal with. If we look at the GRRM world it's essentially been a Medieval society for 5000 years. From there to here in reality took us 1500 years. I think I just find it hard to totally suspend disbelief given that he has taken such great pains to write such detailed accounts of people's characters and the political machinations. Perhaps it's the scientist/engineer in me.
It's maybe not unreasonable then to say 5k years may pass if there were 'resets' to development or if drivers of progress were not present - e.g. population growth.
Many fantasy authors use the presence of magic to dictate that science isn't needed but a few authors have gone down the route of having both and of the contantion between the two.
As for land - later books open up much more fo the world, it's much bigger than Westeros which, in many respects, is a little backwater.
IainT said:
The technologial progress 'issue' is one that many fantasy books with long histories don't deal with. If we look at the GRRM world it's essentially been a Medieval society for 5000 years. From there to here in reality took us 1500 years.
True enough. Until the industrial revolution in the latter part of the 1700s, our society hadn't changed since... when? Romans? Before? In truth I guess it hadn't changed significantly since men first harnessed horses.IainT said:
It's maybe not unreasonable then to say 5k years may pass if there were 'resets' to development or if drivers of progress were not present - e.g. population growth.
From some very quick research it seems that population growth *followed* the industrial revolution, so my initial thoughts that a limited population would keep innovation at bay are incorrect. This means Westeros could be at the cusp of an industrial revolution. Natural disaster might curtail that but war may accelerate it.Would be interesting to see if GRRM accounts for this but as he seems focussed on political machinations.
IainT said:
Many fantasy authors use the presence of magic to dictate that science isn't needed but a few authors have gone down the route of having both and of the contantion between the two.
I agree but I find it hard to believe there's a limited view of the world - even with magic, people journey to discovery.IainT said:
As for land - later books open up much more fo the world, it's much bigger than Westeros which, in many respects, is a little backwater.
Ahah..!! I need to read those books. Thanks. 
I have vetured in...
We have had our own resets in this world, history isn't linear. I get the impression that the seasons can altar and sometimes they get a big winter like an ice age? Which would have an impact (that's what got rid of Atlantis 
), dragons may also have had an impact? Is it Earth? Are the laws of physics the same? Middle Earth was Earth, but the Discworld isn't and things work differently there
IainT said:
The technologial progress 'issue' is one that many fantasy books with long histories don't deal with. If we look at the GRRM world it's essentially been a Medieval society for 5000 years. From there to here in reality took us 1500 years.
It's maybe not unreasonable then to say 5k years may pass if there were 'resets' to development or if drivers of progress were not present - e.g. population growth.
Many fantasy authors use the presence of magic to dictate that science isn't needed but a few authors have gone down the route of having both and of the contantion between the two.
Obviously I haven't read the books, just the series, but I don't see it as unusual that a society has stayed static for 5000 years. In some fantasy magic is science. Science so advanced it might as well be called magic springs to mind as wellIt's maybe not unreasonable then to say 5k years may pass if there were 'resets' to development or if drivers of progress were not present - e.g. population growth.
Many fantasy authors use the presence of magic to dictate that science isn't needed but a few authors have gone down the route of having both and of the contantion between the two.
We have had our own resets in this world, history isn't linear. I get the impression that the seasons can altar and sometimes they get a big winter like an ice age? Which would have an impact (that's what got rid of Atlantis ), dragons may also have had an impact? Is it Earth? Are the laws of physics the same? Middle Earth was Earth, but the Discworld isn't and things work differently thereSo its ok to discuss spoilers here?
as I nearly wet myself laughing when the guy on the other thread suggested Caitlin cut off Jaime's hand. Either he has read the books and is playing about or he got in a very lucky guess.
The thing I am looking forward to about book 5 most of all is that hopefully there will be no Briene in it as her POV was covered in book 4. I wouldnt mind if they clear up if she is dead or not though, mainly because I hope she is. I cant stand her.
Im really looking forward to find out what Jon has been up to with Stannis though.
as I nearly wet myself laughing when the guy on the other thread suggested Caitlin cut off Jaime's hand. Either he has read the books and is playing about or he got in a very lucky guess.
The thing I am looking forward to about book 5 most of all is that hopefully there will be no Briene in it as her POV was covered in book 4. I wouldnt mind if they clear up if she is dead or not though, mainly because I hope she is. I cant stand her.
Im really looking forward to find out what Jon has been up to with Stannis though.
The point about fantasy worlds not progressing to an industrial revolution - something I've never considered and feel very small mentally for not doing so!
The arguments that have no doubt been done ad infinitum are: they obviously smelt to get armour and swords, and they boil water to cook - why then has no-one made the leap to create an air tight container with water in it to provide torque?
Hindsight is very easy!
The arguments that have no doubt been done ad infinitum are: they obviously smelt to get armour and swords, and they boil water to cook - why then has no-one made the leap to create an air tight container with water in it to provide torque?
Hindsight is very easy!
Tonsko said:
The point about fantasy worlds not progressing to an industrial revolution - something I've never considered and feel very small mentally for not doing so!
Wouldn't worry about it. I once went to a Pratchett "talk" in a Hotel in Brum and asked a similar question about whether the Discworld characters would ever achieve a level of scientific advancement - totally missing the point of the novels. 
In my defence, I was in my teens and trying out some independent thinking for the first time.
I've always just taken the view that any fantasy world like this requires a certain suspension of disbelief and an acceptance that certain things just "are". The presence of dragons is fundamentally no harder to accept than the absence of technological advancement....
I'm a long time fantasy fan but hadn't read any of the SOIAF series before watching the TV show. I'm well and truly snared now. About 100 pages into Book 2 but I'm on holiday next week so can see that and Book 3 being polished off in fairly short order!
I'm a long time fantasy fan but hadn't read any of the SOIAF series before watching the TV show. I'm well and truly snared now. About 100 pages into Book 2 but I'm on holiday next week so can see that and Book 3 being polished off in fairly short order!
Id always just thought that things like the long winters that came along kind of "reset" the development in Westeros, maybe I am totally wrong.
There is a brilliant interview with GRRM somewhere where he is talking about the fans of the books taking it way too seriously though. There was a fan who was moaning about the colour of Eddards horse at one point, it was meant to be one colour in the book and it was different in the TV show. GRRM basically was saying it wasnt important and the fan was saying it ruined the show for him!
There is a brilliant interview with GRRM somewhere where he is talking about the fans of the books taking it way too seriously though. There was a fan who was moaning about the colour of Eddards horse at one point, it was meant to be one colour in the book and it was different in the TV show. GRRM basically was saying it wasnt important and the fan was saying it ruined the show for him!
Mars said:
Tonsko said:
The point about fantasy worlds not progressing to an industrial revolution - something I've never considered and feel very small mentally for not doing so!
Wouldn't worry about it. I once went to a Pratchett "talk" in a Hotel in Brum and asked a similar question about whether the Discworld characters would ever achieve a level of scientific advancement - totally missing the point of the novels. In my defence, I was in my teens and trying out some independent thinking for the first time.
richtea78 said:
Id always just thought that things like the long winters that came along kind of "reset" the development in Westeros, maybe I am totally wrong.
This would be my take on it but it doesn't really explain why other continents and equatorial places haven't progressed.Saying that we can ask the same questions of certain remote parts of the globe and ask why an Amazonian tribe hasn't developed the jet engine yet.
Lack of tech isn't so hard to work with.
richtea78 said:
as I nearly wet myself laughing when the guy on the other thread suggested Caitlin cut off Jaime's hand. Either he has read the books and is playing about or he got in a very lucky guess.
I know, inspired guess I think.I quite like that GRRM doles out a certain amount of justice to some pretty evil characters. There was a point where all teh good guys were dieing left, right and centre and I was feeling a bit shocked by it. Some of the balance is addressed though.
richtea78 said:
The thing I am looking forward to about book 5 most of all is that hopefully there will be no Briene in it as her POV was covered in book 4. I wouldnt mind if they clear up if she is dead or not though, mainly because I hope she is. I cant stand her.
Brienne is one of the characters I really like. From her time with Jaime heading back to King's Landing and her 'quest' after that. I really doubt she's dead but then again GRRM isn't sentimental about killing people off!richtea78 said:
Im really looking forward to find out what Jon has been up to with Stannis though.
Quite a lot of this was covered towards the end of book 3. I'm guessing in 5 we'll see the 'recruitment' of the Wildlings and the beginning of skirmishes with The Others. Mostly I'm looking forwards to Danerys' development and her joining the fight.My prediction for the end: All parties vieing for the Throne will put aside their differences to fight the Others. One side will turn out to be on the Other's side. The good guys win and there's a bitter scramble for control. Dany and Jon wed to form a ruling house.
Probably too obvious though.
Tonsko said:
Did Dany not feature at all in a Feast For Crows? Can't remember now. Her story was one my favourite threads I think. I guess the title gives it all away :P
Was that 3 or 4 - I read them all back-to-back so it's all blurred somewhat! If it's book 3 then her story develops mostly there from memory. i.e. the bilding of her army and 'empire'Reading the books on Kindle I tend to ignore the book title!
She becomes a significant power in her own right by the time focus turns to Westeros and Kings Landing in book 4.
The version I read, book 3 was split into 2 for the paperback. I believe the hardback was 1 volume. So, 'A Feast For Crows' was book 4, but actually the 5th volume. I remember being quite disappointed with it - I think because it didn't seem to be written as well as the previous ones and seemed a bit rushed.
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