Towing weight for this autotrail (Plate picture)

[ajondyh]

Can anyone of the more knowledgeable motorhomers tell me what the max weight I can tow with this Autotrail Cheyenne 696G 2004 Fiat 2.8TD They had the GVW upgraded apparently see extra sticker.

[size13]

5500 - 3850 = 1650KG

1st figure is the van weight
2nd is the gross train weight (van + trailer)
3rd is front axle
4th is rear axle

It's been re-plated at 3850, so the 1st figure is now 3850KG

[ajondyh]

Many Thanks for the reply. Is it possible to re plate it back to original to give a bigger tow weight?

[nagsheadwarrior]

Not hard to downplate back to 3500kg, you need to put the van empty on a weighbridge first though to prove they'll be enough payload left.
Do that then if there's enough payload to be practical ring sv tech in Leyland who'll send a form for you to fill in and deal with the dvla paperwork for about £120.

[ajondyh]

nagsheadwarrior said:

Not hard to downplate back to 3500kg, you need to put the van empty on a weighbridge first though to prove they'll be enough payload left.
Do that then if there's enough payload to be practical ring sv tech in Leyland who'll send a form for you to fill in and deal with the dvla paperwork for about £120.

Sorry but you're talking to mr stupid now :-) How much payload should be left? And are there weigh bridges available in most locations?

[R0G]

Talk about some mis-information on here ....

There is no need to down plate at all because
1 - any towing capacity listed by the manufacturer remains the same
2 - the GTW remains the same

The towing capacity is not the GTW minus the GVW unless that just happens to be the same as the listed towing capacity

The one thing down plating back to 3500 will do is to put the vehicle into a B category instead of a LGV C1 category which it is at 3850

At the moment towing a trailer over 750 kgs MAM will require LGV C1+E but if down plated to 3500 is will make towing under B+E if trailer over 750 kgs plated MAM

Do you have B+E or C1+E on your licence?

Edited by R0G on Tuesday 10th June 06:57

[R0G]

At the moment on a C1+E licence with a listed towing capacity of 2000 you could have a trailer plated at 3500 loaded to an actual weight of 2000 with the vehicle loaded to an actual weight of 3500 as that would not break any laws

[size13]

Not sure I understand much of ROG is on about (maybe needs more coffee!)

I'm just repeating what I was told be two different trailer companies, plus the same here...
http://www.towbarexpress.co.uk/towing-weight.html

Our GVW is 3950KG and a GTW of 5500KG so we were advised that if we want to tow a car, we'd need to down-plate the van back to it's original 3450KG. Which we're not bothering with.

Edited by size13 on Tuesday 10th June 14:16

[Rosscow]

size13 said:

Not sure I understand much of ROG is on about (maybe needs more coffee!)

I'm just repeating what I was told be two different trailer companies, plus the same here...
http://www.towbarexpress.co.uk/towing-weight.html

Our GVW is 3950KG and a GTW of 5000KG so we were advised that if we want to tow a car, we'd need to down-plate the van back to it's original 3450KG. Which we're not bothering with.

Edited by size13 on Tuesday 10th June 10:05

The Gross Train Weight has remained at 5500kg - only the Gross Vehicle Weight has been increased to 3850kg.

As Rog says, nothing else has changed, you can still tow 2000kg if you load the vehicle to 3500kg as the Gross Train Weight is still 5500kg.

You've actually got the best of both worlds as you can load it up heavy when not towing, or keep it normal and tow up to 2000kg.

The only downside is that the Gross Vehicle Weight of 3850kg is above the car license maximum of 3500kg.

[jagracer]

ajondyh, when did you pass your test, what groups do you have on your licence?

[size13]

Rosscow said:

The Gross Train Weight has remained at 5500kg - only the Gross Vehicle Weight has been increased to 3850kg.

As Rog says, nothing else has changed, you can still tow 2000kg if you load the vehicle to 3500kg as the Gross Train Weight is still 5500kg.

You've actually got the best of both worlds as you can load it up heavy when not towing, or keep it normal and tow up to 2000kg.

The only downside is that the Gross Vehicle Weight of 3850kg is above the car license maximum of 3500kg.

I asked that very question at the trailer place and was told no. Bit confusing
(License not an issue for me)
My understanding was that the new GVW was the only figure to use, you couldn't decide which one to use depending on towing or not.

Edited by size13 on Tuesday 10th June 11:41

[size13]

Just spoke to SV Tech as they re-rated ours, they say the towing weight is the difference between the Gross Train Weight and the Plated Gross Vehicle Weight (the new plated weight)
There is no option to under-load the van e.g. 3500KG unless you have the van down-rated.

[Rosscow]

size13 said:

Just spoke to SV Tech as they re-rated ours, they say the towing weight is the difference between the Gross Train Weight and the Plated Gross Vehicle Weight (the new plated weight)
There is no option to under-load the van e.g. 3500KG unless you have the van down-rated.

I think they are wrong.

To drive the above vehicle, you will need a C1 license. if you have a C1+E license then you will be able to tow more than 750kg (which the OP would need to do if he wants to pull a car).

So, if you have a C1+E license, you can tow any combination of vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to a maximum combination of 12000kg. HOWEVER - the trailer can't weigh more than the vehicle.

Therefore, as long as you have a C1+E license, the above vehicle can tow anything up to it's own weight, but there is a gross train limit of 5500kg.

Therefore, you could weigh the towing vehicle at 3000kg and legally tow 2500kg.

Rog will clarify but that's my take on it.

[R0G]

SV Tech really need to get up to speed on the law if they want to state so called facts

The law is very clear ...

Do not exceed a vehicle GVW = max vehicle can weigh when fully laden

Do not exceed a trailer plated MAM = max trailer can weigh when fully laden

Do not exceed the GTW = max vehicle and trailer can weigh when weighed together

There is also a manufacturers max towing capacity (max actual weight that can be towed) if listed and if exceeded that can result in a prosecution under reg 100 of the C&U regs in court if deemed unsafe - it can also invalidate insurance

Those laws are simple to understand so all the driver has to do is to take each one at a time and see if they have been complied with


Licencing laws are also simple as they are based on vehicle GVW and trailer plated MAM weights - not the GTW because that refers to actual weight

If anyone can find extra laws which refute any of this post then feel free to post them and give where they got them from

[R0G]

Legal example where no max towing capacity is specified by manufacturer

Vehicle - non PCV
GVW 4000 (over 3500 so requires LGV C1 licence)
GTW 6500
Difference between GTW and GVW is 2500 but no max towing capacity listed so the GTW can be used as the driver wants to

Towing a Trailer
MAM 3500 (over 750 so now requires LGV C1+E licence)

Load vehicle to actual weight of 3500
Load trailer to actual weight of 3000
No laws broken

The fact that the vehicle GVW and the trailer MAM add up to more than the GTW has no legal restriction

Had a towing limit of 3000 been placed by the manufacturer then the fact that the trailer MAM exceeds that would also have no legal restriction

A pre 1997 C1+E with a 107 code restricting the driver to a max total MAM (GVW & MTPLM mean the same) of 8250 can be used because the GVW 4000 added to trailer MAM of 3500 = 7500 so under the 8250 limit

[size13]

I still disagree. All the searching (google + talking to people) I've done over the past few months points to what I've said. I haven't seen a single source that backs up what you're saying.

I know it relates to a car but...
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weig...

"Alternatively the vehicle’s gross train weight may be listed on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate on the car. This is normally under the bonnet or inside the driver’s door. The gross train weight is the weight of the fully loaded car plus fully loaded trailer and must not be exceeded."

fully loaded car = Gross Vehicle Weight, or 3850KG in this case. Not however much you think you can put in under the train weight.

Also...
http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/download/Towing%20...

Here's the plates of ours...

Original


re-plated


Unless somebody can proved (with evidence) otherwise, I'm going to take it that I can tow 5500KG - 3950KG = 1550KG

[Rosscow]

size13 said:

I still disagree. All the searching (google + talking to people) I've done over the past few months points to what I've said. I haven't seen a single source that backs up what you're saying.

I know it relates to a car but...
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weig...

"Alternatively the vehicle’s gross train weight may be listed on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate on the car. This is normally under the bonnet or inside the driver’s door. The gross train weight is the weight of the fully loaded car plus fully loaded trailer and must not be exceeded."

fully loaded car = Gross Vehicle Weight, or 3850KG in this case. Not however much you think you can put in under the train weight.

Also...
http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/download/Towing%20...

Here's the plates of ours...

Original


re-plated


Unless somebody can proved (with evidence) otherwise, I'm going to take it that I can tow 5500KG - 3950KG = 1550KG

The second link that you posted gives you this quote:

size13 said:

However if the towing vehicle is not fully laden, any spare weight capacity can be used by the trailer, so long as the GCW and trailer GVW are not exceeded.

Therefore, if you only load the vehicle to 3500kg, then you can add the 350kg to the trailer....

[size13]

Rosscow said:

Therefore, if you only load to 3500kg, then you can add the 350kg to the trailer....

I think you've probably just found the answer I've been looking for for the past 3 months! First time I've seen that in writing, and I missed it!

[Rosscow]

size13 said:

Rosscow said:

Therefore, if you only load to 3500kg, then you can add the 350kg to the trailer....

I think you've probably just found the answer I've been looking for for the past 3 months! First time I've seen that in writing, and I missed it!

In fairness, I knew that Rog and I were correct as when I passed my B+E test a few weeks ago, I asked the same question. I was using my instructors tow car (a Kia Sorrento) and his trailer (Ifor Williams box trailer).

The car gave a maximum braked trailer weight of 2500kg and a gross vehicle weight of 2510kg.

Obviously the 2 of these added up to 5010kg. However, the trailer was rated to 2750kg.

Obviously this would be more than the 5010kg.

My instructors answer? The trailer is only loaded with xxxkg, bringing the total trailer weight to 1750kg, well under the combined maximum of 5010kg.

[size13]

I've been looking at towing a Toyota Yaris plus trailer which came to 1575 kg and was told to take as much weight out of the car (e.g. spare wheels, jack etc) and put it in the motorhome to get the trailer under 1550kg.
Told this by two trailer sales places, hence my understanding of it.