Tachograph and WTD expert? Quick question please.
Discussion
The firm is work for has recently undergone a big change, new depot and contracts etc. and we are now paid a salary based on a 45 hour week over an average of 17 weeks.
I've recently found out that when being a second driver, a lot of the time for me as a trainer, and the vehicle is stopped for doing deliveries or whatever the tachograph head defaults to POA. This time is then not counted towards our WTD and my average hours are kept artificially low.
Firstly, is this legal and secondly, is there a legal obligation for me to put my tachograph in the head? Can I instead leave it out and do a manual entry when I return at the end of the day meaning my hours would be correct.
Thanks
I've recently found out that when being a second driver, a lot of the time for me as a trainer, and the vehicle is stopped for doing deliveries or whatever the tachograph head defaults to POA. This time is then not counted towards our WTD and my average hours are kept artificially low.
Firstly, is this legal and secondly, is there a legal obligation for me to put my tachograph in the head? Can I instead leave it out and do a manual entry when I return at the end of the day meaning my hours would be correct.
Thanks
My understanding of POA is that it is neither other work or driving. It is to be used when waiting to load/deliver etc where the waiting time is known in advance and you are sat in the cab twiddling your thumbs. It isn't rest as you are not free to dispose of your time as you see fit. POA does not count towards working or driving time, but can count towards rest.
I believe that the vehicle unit defaults to POA for driver 2 as this is relevant when double driving. It is the drivers responsibility to ensure the mode switch is used correctly and that the tacho records your time correctly. I would seek immediate WRITTEN guidance from your TM regarding this as company interpretations or policies on use of POA to maximise 4.5 driving/ 6hrs WTD can differ. If unsure of their interpretation bounce it off the FTA/RHA helpline and go with their advice (if your co is a member).
Until you get clarification from your TM or FTA/RHA I would do manual entries.
I believe that the vehicle unit defaults to POA for driver 2 as this is relevant when double driving. It is the drivers responsibility to ensure the mode switch is used correctly and that the tacho records your time correctly. I would seek immediate WRITTEN guidance from your TM regarding this as company interpretations or policies on use of POA to maximise 4.5 driving/ 6hrs WTD can differ. If unsure of their interpretation bounce it off the FTA/RHA helpline and go with their advice (if your co is a member).
Until you get clarification from your TM or FTA/RHA I would do manual entries.
Thanks for that 
It has already been proved with another driver that they are taking it as a Break and not including it in his weekly WTD calculations, as such his average hours were well below what was expected, it also answers my query as to why my own hours seemed so low. This has not been briefed out to any of the drivers as far as I'm aware, so my guess is that we have a whole fleet of double manned wagons out there with the 2nd driver being permanently on POA even when working.
So to clarify, there is no legal need for me to put my card in the 2nd driver slot when out in a lorry and I'm OK to do aannual entry upon my return to depot?
It has already been proved with another driver that they are taking it as a Break and not including it in his weekly WTD calculations, as such his average hours were well below what was expected, it also answers my query as to why my own hours seemed so low. This has not been briefed out to any of the drivers as far as I'm aware, so my guess is that we have a whole fleet of double manned wagons out there with the 2nd driver being permanently on POA even when working.
So to clarify, there is no legal need for me to put my card in the 2nd driver slot when out in a lorry and I'm OK to do aannual entry upon my return to depot?
NickM450 said:
Thanks for that
It has already been proved with another driver that they are taking it as a Break and not including it in his weekly WTD calculations, as such his average hours were well below what was expected, it also answers my query as to why my own hours seemed so low. This has not been briefed out to any of the drivers as far as I'm aware, so my guess is that we have a whole fleet of double manned wagons out there with the 2nd driver being permanently on POA even when working.
So to clarify, there is no legal need for me to put my card in the 2nd driver slot when out in a lorry and I'm OK to do aannual entry upon my return to depot?
You could ask the question on trucknet, there are some real knowledgable guys on there. It has already been proved with another driver that they are taking it as a Break and not including it in his weekly WTD calculations, as such his average hours were well below what was expected, it also answers my query as to why my own hours seemed so low. This has not been briefed out to any of the drivers as far as I'm aware, so my guess is that we have a whole fleet of double manned wagons out there with the 2nd driver being permanently on POA even when working.
So to clarify, there is no legal need for me to put my card in the 2nd driver slot when out in a lorry and I'm OK to do aannual entry upon my return to depot?
This happened at my place of work as well, the tacho software was recording all driver 2 as poa, some guys were being told they'd only done 35 hours in that week, yet when it was looked into they were into the 50s
If you are not driving at all in a shift then I see no reason to put your card in. You're not looking to fiddle your hours just make sure they are correctly recorded so I can't see any issue with doing this.
I would still insist on written clarification from your boss just to be sure. Something to give to the authorities if you are stopped.
I would still insist on written clarification from your boss just to be sure. Something to give to the authorities if you are stopped.
If you are not doing any driving then no need to use your card .
The confusion is calling it double manned when its probably better to be called driver and drivers mate .
If properly double manned both cards need to be in the machine .
Slot 1 for person driving and slot 2 for the other .
When swapping seats you must swap cards .
The first 45 mins of the card in slot 2 is accepted as break time .
If both helping with loading etc then both must be put on other work .
As far as paid time when double manned HMRC regard the length of time from start of shift to end of shift less breaks as the time you should be paid for .
Double manning is usually done to attain longer working days as you can do upto 21hrs spread . The driving hours for each shift are still the same as normal for each driver .
The confusion is calling it double manned when its probably better to be called driver and drivers mate .
If properly double manned both cards need to be in the machine .
Slot 1 for person driving and slot 2 for the other .
When swapping seats you must swap cards .
The first 45 mins of the card in slot 2 is accepted as break time .
If both helping with loading etc then both must be put on other work .
As far as paid time when double manned HMRC regard the length of time from start of shift to end of shift less breaks as the time you should be paid for .
Double manning is usually done to attain longer working days as you can do upto 21hrs spread . The driving hours for each shift are still the same as normal for each driver .
Seems as though a can of worms has been opened with none of the managers agreeing or even giving the same answer. As I've yet to see my hours for the last few weeks I can't really comment on what our system has done, all I have so far is here say and speculation so I'll wait to get some solid proof before I go in with my issues.
More research is needed on both the regulations as well as what the company is doing. Thanks again all.
More research is needed on both the regulations as well as what the company is doing. Thanks again all.
If they argue that you are on break then remind them that a break is regarded as a period of time where you can do as you wish , if you are in the passenger seat of a moving truck you cannot do as you wish .
ACAS and HMRC are the people to contact for clarity on the legality of these disputes.
The employer could be in danger of breaches of minimum pay rules if they are only paying for the hours they think you work rather than the actual hours on shift/ duty .
ACAS and HMRC are the people to contact for clarity on the legality of these disputes.
The employer could be in danger of breaches of minimum pay rules if they are only paying for the hours they think you work rather than the actual hours on shift/ duty .
I would have thought that if you are in the truck only in a training role and not at any point doing any driving then you simply do not put the card in but keep a record of the work and breaks for that day, then when you do drive do a manual entry for the other work and breaks for the day or days, it will be a pain but then you are recorded as working, which is part of your requirements when it comes to your averages both fortnightly and over 17 weeks.
Also I would have though that when on shift as a trainer your working day being recoreded is important as it will affect how many 13/15 shifts you do and how daily rests are recorded??
Also I would have though that when on shift as a trainer your working day being recoreded is important as it will affect how many 13/15 shifts you do and how daily rests are recorded??
Every time driver 2 records POA with driver 1 in the driving seat then the first 45 mins, or part thereof, of each POA will be deemed as BREAK
Do not dwell on the WTD for drivers as the authorities aint bothered about it but some companies give internal infringements for breaches
As long as the EU tacho regs are complied with then all will be well
Do not dwell on the WTD for drivers as the authorities aint bothered about it but some companies give internal infringements for breaches
As long as the EU tacho regs are complied with then all will be well
R0G said:
Every time driver 2 records POA with driver 1 in the driving seat then the first 45 mins, or part thereof, of each POA will be deemed as BREAK
Do not dwell on the WTD for drivers as the authorities aint bothered about it but some companies give internal infringements for breaches
As long as the EU tacho regs are complied with then all will be well
Agree Rog, but if it's not recorded on the card properly you could leave yourself open to be exploited by some firms who would argue that you have plenty of time left to be used on your card, hence my point about manual entry at the first opportunity.Do not dwell on the WTD for drivers as the authorities aint bothered about it but some companies give internal infringements for breaches
As long as the EU tacho regs are complied with then all will be well
your card so your evidence of work.
Well it's all come out now, it turns out we run two separate systems at work. There is the 'smart analysis' which takes your tacho information and keeps a track if that. This is just a legality to make sure no one is being too naughty, on top of that someone keeps a separate spreadsheet that calculates our contractual hours. This is done by start time, finisht time less 30 minutes, this is the information that should be used when calculating our 45 hours average over 17 weeks.
The problem has been that some managers are either not aware of this or simply don't care and aew just using the tachograph data to make uninformed drivers think they still have hours left to work. Legally they do but contractually they do not.
I keep a personal diary of my hours in accordance with our contract, this however has made me in to some sort of trouble maker in the eyes of some managers.
My last 8 weeks have all been 55 hours plus, but due to me being doubled up or training I legally have plenty of hours available. I will be having a chat with a manager over the next week to explain that the deeper in to the 17 week period we get the more difficult it will be for me to get down to the 45 hour average.
The problem has been that some managers are either not aware of this or simply don't care and aew just using the tachograph data to make uninformed drivers think they still have hours left to work. Legally they do but contractually they do not.
I keep a personal diary of my hours in accordance with our contract, this however has made me in to some sort of trouble maker in the eyes of some managers.
My last 8 weeks have all been 55 hours plus, but due to me being doubled up or training I legally have plenty of hours available. I will be having a chat with a manager over the next week to explain that the deeper in to the 17 week period we get the more difficult it will be for me to get down to the 45 hour average.
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