Getting the most from my driving hours.
Discussion
Hi all.
In the last month I've passed my C and C+E test, done my cpc and on Monday, i started work, driving a volvo fh with a (normally) potato bulker, and aside from a horrific attempt at reversing into a black hole of a loading dock/potato hopper in the dark which was on the seemingly impossible to see out of nearside of the vehicle and getting to grips with the vagueness and stubborness of a 768000km old gearbox, plus being pulled in by vosa twice, once 5 hours into my very first day its going pretty well.
I do however, want to improve my productivity, on account of me working for a farmer who (as farmers do) expects me to work right up to the legal limit. i dont really want to ask him questions becausw as nice as he is his agenda is to get as many tonnes shifted as possible, and any answers he gives me maybe wont be as unbiased and honest as those of complete strangers on the internet.
So i was hoping i could clear up a few things.
1, can anyone reccomend me a book or similar that states all the tachograph rules etc in proper englandish so someone like me can understand.
2, can anyone explain to me what "duty time" is if we can only be "on duty" for 11 hours. i assume that excludes breaks. so if i have a day where i extend and drive for 10 hours, my brakes alone would push me over 11 hours, let along any "other work" My boss tells me you can be on duty for 15 hours, but the dsa book i got to pass my theory test says 11. it must be 15 hours from the moment you start your timesheet to the moment it ends?
3, i assume putting your tacho on break for 15 whilst you fill up must be a big no-no and patrolling vosa people (vosites, voseens, vosafairians?) may ask to look at your tacho whilst you fill up?
4, my boss is looking to get digicard tachos fitted to all the vehicles. i understand these make it harder to overrun your driving time? Do they have a countdown with your remaining driving time or driving time till break on them? because i'd quite like this.
5, this week i did 55 or 54 (i forget) driving hours, so next week i can only do 30 odd hours. can i still do two 10 hour days? even if i'm only looking at doing 4 days. then after that, presumably i can start next sunday after a 48hr rest.
Surely at some point they will have to overhaul and simplfy the rules.
thanks all
ps, i understand this looks a bit moany, it really isnt. i do like it, im just stressed im going to get expensive fines for driving infringememts and points on my licence etc. I also want to stick with this employer for a while, the work is interesting, nobody tells me what to do, i figure it out myself, and im lucky to have dropped onto someone (admittedly a mate of my grandad) who's willing to give someone with zero experience a go (even if it does mean throwing me in at the deep end and have me drive for 55 hours on my first week).
In the last month I've passed my C and C+E test, done my cpc and on Monday, i started work, driving a volvo fh with a (normally) potato bulker, and aside from a horrific attempt at reversing into a black hole of a loading dock/potato hopper in the dark which was on the seemingly impossible to see out of nearside of the vehicle and getting to grips with the vagueness and stubborness of a 768000km old gearbox, plus being pulled in by vosa twice, once 5 hours into my very first day its going pretty well.
I do however, want to improve my productivity, on account of me working for a farmer who (as farmers do) expects me to work right up to the legal limit. i dont really want to ask him questions becausw as nice as he is his agenda is to get as many tonnes shifted as possible, and any answers he gives me maybe wont be as unbiased and honest as those of complete strangers on the internet.
So i was hoping i could clear up a few things.
1, can anyone reccomend me a book or similar that states all the tachograph rules etc in proper englandish so someone like me can understand.
2, can anyone explain to me what "duty time" is if we can only be "on duty" for 11 hours. i assume that excludes breaks. so if i have a day where i extend and drive for 10 hours, my brakes alone would push me over 11 hours, let along any "other work" My boss tells me you can be on duty for 15 hours, but the dsa book i got to pass my theory test says 11. it must be 15 hours from the moment you start your timesheet to the moment it ends?
3, i assume putting your tacho on break for 15 whilst you fill up must be a big no-no and patrolling vosa people (vosites, voseens, vosafairians?) may ask to look at your tacho whilst you fill up?
4, my boss is looking to get digicard tachos fitted to all the vehicles. i understand these make it harder to overrun your driving time? Do they have a countdown with your remaining driving time or driving time till break on them? because i'd quite like this.
5, this week i did 55 or 54 (i forget) driving hours, so next week i can only do 30 odd hours. can i still do two 10 hour days? even if i'm only looking at doing 4 days. then after that, presumably i can start next sunday after a 48hr rest.
Surely at some point they will have to overhaul and simplfy the rules.
thanks all
ps, i understand this looks a bit moany, it really isnt. i do like it, im just stressed im going to get expensive fines for driving infringememts and points on my licence etc. I also want to stick with this employer for a while, the work is interesting, nobody tells me what to do, i figure it out myself, and im lucky to have dropped onto someone (admittedly a mate of my grandad) who's willing to give someone with zero experience a go (even if it does mean throwing me in at the deep end and have me drive for 55 hours on my first week).
thats a lot of questions to answer all at once , im sure rog will be along in a minute to muddy the water a bit more but to clear the biggest error up , and start from the last question ,
yes you can only do 30 odd hrs next week , then you cant start driving again till sun night midnight as that is when your fixed week starts
digi cards are easier and depending on the sort you have fitted yes they count down for you and tell you loads more info .
putting your tacho on break whilst you fill up is a big no no and not only pisses off vosa but pisses me off at the pumps when im waiting to fill up and can clearly see you sat in your cab waiting for your 15 to tick over
yes you can only do 30 odd hrs next week , then you cant start driving again till sun night midnight as that is when your fixed week starts
digi cards are easier and depending on the sort you have fitted yes they count down for you and tell you loads more info .
putting your tacho on break whilst you fill up is a big no no and not only pisses off vosa but pisses me off at the pumps when im waiting to fill up and can clearly see you sat in your cab waiting for your 15 to tick over
Edited by spike50 on Sunday 3rd November 16:01
I wouldnt hesitate to put it on break to fill up but: different jobs work in different ways and Id have been happy to leave my tacho on break for most of the day. VOSA may not like it but due to the nature of the work theres little that they can do provided that you have used the mode switch once or twice.
On the other hand, if I was driving for several hours without a break I wouldnt entertain sneaking a break in in the manner that Ive endorsed above. In those circumstances I think that you need to take all of your statutory breaks and possibly more besides.
On the other hand, if I was driving for several hours without a break I wouldnt entertain sneaking a break in in the manner that Ive endorsed above. In those circumstances I think that you need to take all of your statutory breaks and possibly more besides.
Hello nick.
at least you've had the balls to ask
Like someone else said Rog is very good on all the tacho rules.
as for your 55 hour question. You must not exceed 90 hours driving in any 2 week period, so if you did 55 hours in your 1st week, (which is very impressive as on a 6 day week the very, very max you could do would be 56 hours driving)
So after week 1 at 55 hours driving, your 2nd week you must not exceed 35 hours driving. This then rolls again, so if you did 35 on your 2nd week, you could then do 55 hours driving on your 3rd week, etc, etc, etc.
re your filling up, and putti ng it on break, technically its illegal, as filling up is other work, so really your tacho should be set to show other work, the crossed hammers! That said, I'm sure plenty do put their tacho to show break whilst filling up, loading/unloading etc.
sometimes I think in at the deep end is the best way to learn, you are lucky to get a start, so good luck and enjoy, and any questions, , keep asking
Don't stress to much, after a while it all starts to fall into place, it will become 2nd nature, even the blind side reverses the tacho rules at times can seem like a bloody minefield though
at least you've had the balls to ask
Like someone else said Rog is very good on all the tacho rules.
as for your 55 hour question. You must not exceed 90 hours driving in any 2 week period, so if you did 55 hours in your 1st week, (which is very impressive as on a 6 day week the very, very max you could do would be 56 hours driving)
So after week 1 at 55 hours driving, your 2nd week you must not exceed 35 hours driving. This then rolls again, so if you did 35 on your 2nd week, you could then do 55 hours driving on your 3rd week, etc, etc, etc.
re your filling up, and putti ng it on break, technically its illegal, as filling up is other work, so really your tacho should be set to show other work, the crossed hammers! That said, I'm sure plenty do put their tacho to show break whilst filling up, loading/unloading etc.
sometimes I think in at the deep end is the best way to learn, you are lucky to get a start, so good luck and enjoy, and any questions, , keep asking
Don't stress to much, after a while it all starts to fall into place, it will become 2nd nature, even the blind side reverses
the tacho rules at times can seem like a bloody minefield though thanks guys.
Chilli, your post confirms what i think i know. so thats good. I think being thrown in at the deep end probably is for the best, and i know most of it will come to me eventually, especially the reversing etc (and keeping up with everyone else, who apparently seems to be driving around in empty lorries, as they storm past me on hills, and can seemingly get through the first half of the gears much quicker than me in busy traffic)
I think i'm not breaking any laws at the moment, i've left my dsa book with the basic driver rules in the cab. but i'm constantly referring to it to make sure i dont do anything stupid.
Chilli, your post confirms what i think i know. so thats good. I think being thrown in at the deep end probably is for the best, and i know most of it will come to me eventually, especially the reversing etc (and keeping up with everyone else, who apparently seems to be driving around in empty lorries, as they storm past me on hills, and can seemingly get through the first half of the gears much quicker than me in busy traffic)
I think i'm not breaking any laws at the moment, i've left my dsa book with the basic driver rules in the cab. but i'm constantly referring to it to make sure i dont do anything stupid.
And to add,
normally its a max of 9 hours driving time per day, but twice a week it can be extended to 10 hours driving time.
as for duty time, its supposed to be 13 hours a day, with 11 hours daily rest at the end of each shift,
however
3 times a week you may extend your duty time to 15 hours total, although never exceed the 9 or 10 hours driving in this 15 hour period. As every thing works on a 24 hour period, it is also legal after a 15 hour shift to take a reduced daily rest of 9 hours. (15 hour shift+9 reduced daily rest=24) you could still take an 11 hour rest after a shift of 15 hours, but it will only count as a 9, because of the 24 hour rule keeping up???
Weekly rest is 45 hours, not 48, but again, this can be reduced, but I'll let you get your head round the basics for now
normally its a max of 9 hours driving time per day, but twice a week it can be extended to 10 hours driving time.
as for duty time, its supposed to be 13 hours a day, with 11 hours daily rest at the end of each shift,
however
3 times a week you may extend your duty time to 15 hours total, although never exceed the 9 or 10 hours driving in this 15 hour period. As every thing works on a 24 hour period, it is also legal after a 15 hour shift to take a reduced daily rest of 9 hours. (15 hour shift+9 reduced daily rest=24) you could still take an 11 hour rest after a shift of 15 hours, but it will only count as a 9, because of the 24 hour rule
keeping up???Weekly rest is 45 hours, not 48, but again, this can be reduced, but I'll let you get your head round the basics for now
My link is to a .pdf copy of VOSA's driving hours book. You can print it out, keep it on your phone if itll store and display .pdf files (rules out an iPhone!) or you can even pick up an actual book if you can find a VOSA office/station which has one.
It is the definitive guide to the rules, but I have found it to be very accessible and relatively straightforward. Well: its written in a straightforward way and it explains the inaccessible and convoluted rules are clearly as possible...
It is the definitive guide to the rules, but I have found it to be very accessible and relatively straightforward. Well: its written in a straightforward way and it explains the inaccessible and convoluted rules are clearly as possible...
chilistrucker said:
And to add,
normally its a max of 9 hours driving time per day, but twice a week it can be extended to 10 hours driving time.
as for duty time, its supposed to be 13 hours a day, with 11 hours daily rest at the end of each shift,
however
3 times a week you may extend your duty time to 15 hours total, although never exceed the 9 or 10 hours driving in this 15 hour period. As every thing works on a 24 hour period, it is also legal after a 15 hour shift to take a reduced daily rest of 9 hours. (15 hour shift+9 reduced daily rest=24) you could still take an 11 hour rest after a shift of 15 hours, but it will only count as a 9, because of the 24 hour rule keeping up???
Weekly rest is 45 hours, not 48, but again, this can be reduced, but I'll let you get your head round the basics for now
So, if i do a 9 hour driving day, i have to take 11 hours rest, but if i work a 10 hour driving day i must reduce that to 9 hours rest. but a 9 hour shift cant be followed by a 9 hour rest,if say i want to get an extra early start?normally its a max of 9 hours driving time per day, but twice a week it can be extended to 10 hours driving time.
as for duty time, its supposed to be 13 hours a day, with 11 hours daily rest at the end of each shift,
however
3 times a week you may extend your duty time to 15 hours total, although never exceed the 9 or 10 hours driving in this 15 hour period. As every thing works on a 24 hour period, it is also legal after a 15 hour shift to take a reduced daily rest of 9 hours. (15 hour shift+9 reduced daily rest=24) you could still take an 11 hour rest after a shift of 15 hours, but it will only count as a 9, because of the 24 hour rule
keeping up???Weekly rest is 45 hours, not 48, but again, this can be reduced, but I'll let you get your head round the basics for now
GC8 said:
My link is to a .pdf copy of VOSA's driving hours book.
thanks, just printing it out now.this overcomplicated mess of rules must be due an overhaul/simplification soon.
bigfatnick said:
chilistrucker said:
And to add,
normally its a max of 9 hours driving time per day, but twice a week it can be extended to 10 hours driving time.
as for duty time, its supposed to be 13 hours a day, with 11 hours daily rest at the end of each shift,
however
3 times a week you may extend your duty time to 15 hours total, although never exceed the 9 or 10 hours driving in this 15 hour period. As every thing works on a 24 hour period, it is also legal after a 15 hour shift to take a reduced daily rest of 9 hours. (15 hour shift+9 reduced daily rest=24) you could still take an 11 hour rest after a shift of 15 hours, but it will only count as a 9, because of the 24 hour rule keeping up???
Weekly rest is 45 hours, not 48, but again, this can be reduced, but I'll let you get your head round the basics for now
So, if i do a 9 hour driving day, i have to take 11 hours rest, but if i work a 10 hour driving day i must reduce that to 9 hours rest. b4ut a 9 hour shift cant be followed by a 9 hour rest,if say i want to get an extra early start?normally its a max of 9 hours driving time per day, but twice a week it can be extended to 10 hours driving time.
as for duty time, its supposed to be 13 hours a day, with 11 hours daily rest at the end of each shift,
however
3 times a week you may extend your duty time to 15 hours total, although never exceed the 9 or 10 hours driving in this 15 hour period. As every thing works on a 24 hour period, it is also legal after a 15 hour shift to take a reduced daily rest of 9 hours. (15 hour shift+9 reduced daily rest=24) you could still take an 11 hour rest after a shift of 15 hours, but it will only count as a 9, because of the 24 hour rule
keeping up???Weekly rest is 45 hours, not 48, but again, this can be reduced, but I'll let you get your head round the basics for now
GC8 said:
My link is to a .pdf copy of VOSA's driving hours book.
thanks, just printing it out now.this overcomplicated mess of rules must be due an overhaul/simplification soon.
Also after a 10 hour drive, you can take any daily rest you like as long as its a minimum of 9 hours.
it is really complicated. I agree the rules should be simplified, it can be a nightmare keeping legal week in week out.
easiest way to think of your breaks is to think of everyday as a 24 hour period , whenever you start work , say 0600, just count back wherever you are in the day and must be able to see 9 hrs solid break , i.e. at 1800 if you count back then you go back to 1800 yesterday and you will see 9 hrs solid break at least , if you think of it that way you cant really go far wrong
Do you have a smart phone OP?
There's some really good driver timer apps in the app store for free or cheap. My Android one was free and does daily/weekly/fortnightly hours. The GPS feature doesn't seem to work on mine though so I have to remember to stop it!
All employers will try it on to get they're pound of flesh from you. At the end of the day It's you who'll get the fines so make sure you stay legit!
Re. On break at pumps/ when tipping etc do it when it suits you not the boss!
There's some really good driver timer apps in the app store for free or cheap. My Android one was free and does daily/weekly/fortnightly hours. The GPS feature doesn't seem to work on mine though so I have to remember to stop it!
All employers will try it on to get they're pound of flesh from you. At the end of the day It's you who'll get the fines so make sure you stay legit!
Re. On break at pumps/ when tipping etc do it when it suits you not the boss!
Not a lot to add to this because most of the basics have been answered well
What I can suggest is posting what you have done or intend to do and then asking if it legally ok
Generally you can work a 5 on 2 off 6 on 1 off rota with 8 hours of driving for all those 11 days on leaving you with 2 driving hours to spare
any shift over 13 hours means it is a reduced daily rest and only 3 of those are allowed between weekly rests which is not the same as 3 per week because week means the period between sunday midnight to sunday midnight
Some rules are per week and others are between weekly rests which makes it confusing for many
As you are working for a small employer then I doubt they will bother with RTD (WTD) rules - the authorities aint bothered at all about them
What I can suggest is posting what you have done or intend to do and then asking if it legally ok
Generally you can work a 5 on 2 off 6 on 1 off rota with 8 hours of driving for all those 11 days on leaving you with 2 driving hours to spare
any shift over 13 hours means it is a reduced daily rest and only 3 of those are allowed between weekly rests which is not the same as 3 per week because week means the period between sunday midnight to sunday midnight
Some rules are per week and others are between weekly rests which makes it confusing for many
As you are working for a small employer then I doubt they will bother with RTD (WTD) rules - the authorities aint bothered at all about them
Does your job fall under this exemption -
Vehicles used or hired without a driver by agricultural,
horticultural, forestry, farming or fishery undertakings
for carrying goods as part of their own entrepreneurial
activity within a radius of 100 km from the base of the undertaking.
???????????
Vehicles used or hired without a driver by agricultural,
horticultural, forestry, farming or fishery undertakings
for carrying goods as part of their own entrepreneurial
activity within a radius of 100 km from the base of the undertaking.
???????????
GC8 said:
What are the circumstances where you use a log book and not a tachograph (for an operator who would usually use a tacho)?
See the exemptions in here - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...The only example that Ive seen, which was a 30 tonne bulk tipper, was on a ply-on-the-wall motorway police programme. Theres an officer featured who used to be an owner operator (and who was allegedly prosecuted for bent running!) called Angus something or other.
He seems to have a hard-on for HGV drivers and he stopped a pair of bulk tippers who were using log books on that particular day. He explained why they were exempted on that day, but I didnt catch it and presumed that Id be able to refer to the book at a later date and work it out.
I couldnt find anything.
He seems to have a hard-on for HGV drivers and he stopped a pair of bulk tippers who were using log books on that particular day. He explained why they were exempted on that day, but I didnt catch it and presumed that Id be able to refer to the book at a later date and work it out.
I couldnt find anything.
Edited by GC8 on Tuesday 24th December 18:35
GC8 said:
The only example that Ive seen, which was a 30 tonne bulk tipper, was on a ply-on-the-wall motorway police programme. Theres an officer featured who used to be an owner operator (and who was prosecuted for bent running!) called Angus something or other.
He seems to have a hard-on for HGV drivers and he stopped a pair of bulk tippers who were using log books on that particular day. He explained why they were exempted on that day, but I didnt catch it and presumed that Id be able to refer to the book at a later date and work it out.
I couldnt find anything.
It was Angus Nairn on Motorway cops and that is the example I based my answer onHe seems to have a hard-on for HGV drivers and he stopped a pair of bulk tippers who were using log books on that particular day. He explained why they were exempted on that day, but I didnt catch it and presumed that Id be able to refer to the book at a later date and work it out.
I couldnt find anything.
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