Discussion
If you could stop ageing at say 20-25. Would you stay healthy indefinitely barring accident or disease? Or do certain joints and organs deteriorate even at that age and would cause problems in a few decades even if skin wrinkles hair and close vision stayed youthful? To put it another way, does your bodies maintenance dept give up at a certain age or does stuff just deteriorate over time?
Question ask how much deterioration is due to age, and how much to wear and tear. Or the body not fixing wear and tear after a certain point.
Hair going grey, age.
Wrinkled skin, partly age, partly environment.
Joints giving up, entirely wear and tear I think.
Requirement for reading glasses, age I think.
So if you could suspend the ageing process at 25, through manipulating telomeres perhaps. Would you stay as healthy as you were at 25? Or would you still look 25 at 100 but have joint and heart problems restricting your lifestyle?
Hair going grey, age.
Wrinkled skin, partly age, partly environment.
Joints giving up, entirely wear and tear I think.
Requirement for reading glasses, age I think.
So if you could suspend the ageing process at 25, through manipulating telomeres perhaps. Would you stay as healthy as you were at 25? Or would you still look 25 at 100 but have joint and heart problems restricting your lifestyle?
Dr Jekyll said:
Hair going grey, age.
Wrinkled skin, partly age, partly environment.
Joints giving up, entirely wear and tear I think.
Requirement for reading glasses, age I think.
So if you could suspend the ageing process at 25, through manipulating telomeres perhaps. Would you stay as healthy as you were at 25? Or would you still look 25 at 100 but have joint and heart problems restricting your lifestyle?
Ah, symptoms you describe as wear and tear are actually aging. IE joints. Curiously hair going grey isn't really a sign of aging, you can go grey at any age.Wrinkled skin, partly age, partly environment.
Joints giving up, entirely wear and tear I think.
Requirement for reading glasses, age I think.
So if you could suspend the ageing process at 25, through manipulating telomeres perhaps. Would you stay as healthy as you were at 25? Or would you still look 25 at 100 but have joint and heart problems restricting your lifestyle?
popeyewhite said:
Ah, symptoms you describe as wear and tear are actually aging. IE joints. Curiously hair going grey isn't really a sign of aging, you can go grey at any age.
You can, but it rarely starts grey then changes to blonde or black. So although the age varies from individual to individual it is age related. So is it that joints can repair themselves but cease doing so at a certain (individual dependent) age?Gadgetmac said:
We live in an entropic universe.
I am Not sure that has anything to do with ageing. In a closed system entropy increases but the earth is constantly being provided with energy from the sun so any tendency to increased disorder can be reversed. That Is why life has existed for 3.5 billion years and counting and why life today is infinitely more complex and varied than it was when our first common ancestor. Ageing is part of our DNA. I am not sure there is any biological reason why humans couldn’t be immortal and that we could stay healthy and fit forever (of course death due to injury and disease would still exist).
As someone has said, wear and tear is ageing. If you stopped ageing you would stop wear and tear because any damage could be repaired by replacing the damaged cells.
Doesn’t humanity need new beings with new skills and ideas in order to learn and survive?
The same never-aging people are still the same people, with the same ideas, unchanging in a changing universe.
Don’t we need the occasional Einstein to emerge?
Immortality might be the death of humanity.
The same never-aging people are still the same people, with the same ideas, unchanging in a changing universe.
Don’t we need the occasional Einstein to emerge?
Immortality might be the death of humanity.
Esceptico said:
Gadgetmac said:
We live in an entropic universe.
I am Not sure that has anything to do with ageing. In a closed system entropy increases but the earth is constantly being provided with energy from the sun so any tendency to increased disorder can be reversed. That Is why life has existed for 3.5 billion years and counting and why life today is infinitely more complex and varied than it was when our first common ancestor. Ageing is part of our DNA. I am not sure there is any biological reason why humans couldn’t be immortal and that we could stay healthy and fit forever (of course death due to injury and disease would still exist).
As someone has said, wear and tear is ageing. If you stopped ageing you would stop wear and tear because any damage could be repaired by replacing the damaged cells.
Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both
Quote...
There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems
Gadgetmac said:
We live in an entropic universe.
I think Paul Simon understands what you mean.“Everything Put Together Falls Apart.”
https://youtu.be/E1dMPwSfHmg
Roofless Toothless said:
I think Paul Simon understands what you mean.
“Everything Put Together Falls Apart.”
https://youtu.be/E1dMPwSfHmg
I found this explanation quite user friendly...it's Schrodinger (he of cat fame)...“Everything Put Together Falls Apart.”
https://youtu.be/E1dMPwSfHmg
Eventually, entropy gets us all. There is, at some point, so much accumulated entropy that no amount of energy will overcome it. Humans will die. And when we do, Schroedinger states that we go into a state of perfect equilibrium.
And what could be more at equilibrium than a dead human body? It gives up all its heat to its surroundings, and the energy flow within it becomes zero.
Death is maximum entropy.
Ayahuasca said:
Doesn’t humanity need new beings with new skills and ideas in order to learn and survive?
The same never-aging people are still the same people, with the same ideas, unchanging in a changing universe.
Don’t we need the occasional Einstein to emerge?
Immortality might be the death of humanity.
Heh, I was looking at your username and thinking, oh yeah, I remember what that drug does to people and then I read your response and I burst out laughing. I totally agree with you. What you say reminds me of a scene in The Simpsons:The same never-aging people are still the same people, with the same ideas, unchanging in a changing universe.
Don’t we need the occasional Einstein to emerge?
Immortality might be the death of humanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGrfhsxxmdE
Edited by IAmTheWalrus on Wednesday 13th April 18:22
Gadgetmac said:
Esceptico said:
Gadgetmac said:
We live in an entropic universe.
I am Not sure that has anything to do with ageing. In a closed system entropy increases but the earth is constantly being provided with energy from the sun so any tendency to increased disorder can be reversed. That Is why life has existed for 3.5 billion years and counting and why life today is infinitely more complex and varied than it was when our first common ancestor. Ageing is part of our DNA. I am not sure there is any biological reason why humans couldn’t be immortal and that we could stay healthy and fit forever (of course death due to injury and disease would still exist).
As someone has said, wear and tear is ageing. If you stopped ageing you would stop wear and tear because any damage could be repaired by replacing the damaged cells.
Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both
Quote...
There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems
Esceptico said:
Gadgetmac said:
Esceptico said:
Gadgetmac said:
We live in an entropic universe.
I am Not sure that has anything to do with ageing. In a closed system entropy increases but the earth is constantly being provided with energy from the sun so any tendency to increased disorder can be reversed. That Is why life has existed for 3.5 billion years and counting and why life today is infinitely more complex and varied than it was when our first common ancestor. Ageing is part of our DNA. I am not sure there is any biological reason why humans couldn’t be immortal and that we could stay healthy and fit forever (of course death due to injury and disease would still exist).
As someone has said, wear and tear is ageing. If you stopped ageing you would stop wear and tear because any damage could be repaired by replacing the damaged cells.
Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both
Quote...
There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems
However, more pertinently, I think the onus is on those saying it's possible for bodies to repair themselves indefinitely to present evidence in support of the claim, not the other way around. There are no examples in all of creation of this being possible thus far.
Esceptico said:
I have read various articles on ageing and can’t recall one saying it was physically impossible for bodies to repair themselves indefinitely. That might be the case but I would like to see further evidence presented.
It absolutely IS physically impossible - for instance brain cells (neurons) don't replace themselves, heart muscle doesn't renew, crucial cells in the pancreas don't renew etc etc. The body also has to contend with oxidative stress, which threatens any number of diseases associated with aging. Basically from the day we are born the countdown has begun... .
Gadgetmac said:
There are many other papers on this topic not just articles from that author.
However, more pertinently, I think the onus is on those saying it's possible for bodies to repair themselves indefinitely to present evidence in support of the claim, not the other way around. There are no examples in all of creation of this being possible thus far.
Immortality would be an evolutionary dead end and therefore it is unsurprising that you don’t see examples of it in nature. That doesn’t mean it is impossible. However, more pertinently, I think the onus is on those saying it's possible for bodies to repair themselves indefinitely to present evidence in support of the claim, not the other way around. There are no examples in all of creation of this being possible thus far.
Entropy is important in closed systems not open systems. Organisms are not closed and therefore I don’t see why they could not be immortal.
Whether we could figure out how to change an organisms DNA to make them immortal is another question.
Technically possible and practically possible are not the same. If you could recreate the DNA of a dinosaur you could bring them back to life and as dinosaurs once existed then physics doesn’t stop you doing it. However even if physics allows it, we don’t have enough knowledge or control over DNA to do it (and probably never will).
Esceptico said:
Immortality would be an evolutionary dead end and therefore it is unsurprising that you don’t see examples of it in nature. That doesn’t mean it is impossible.
Entropy is important in closed systems not open systems. Organisms are not closed and therefore I don’t see why they could not be immortal.
Whether we could figure out how to change an organisms DNA to make them immortal is another question.
Technically possible and practically possible are not the same. If you could recreate the DNA of a dinosaur you could bring them back to life and as dinosaurs once existed then physics doesn’t stop you doing it. However even if physics allows it, we don’t have enough knowledge or control over DNA to do it (and probably never will).
Far from being an evolutionary dead end, a combination of genes that allowed an organism to reproduce indefinitely would rapidly become prevalent. There are other issues such as cell mutations that limit reproductive age, so little evolutionary pressure to stay healthy beyond that. Entropy is important in closed systems not open systems. Organisms are not closed and therefore I don’t see why they could not be immortal.
Whether we could figure out how to change an organisms DNA to make them immortal is another question.
Technically possible and practically possible are not the same. If you could recreate the DNA of a dinosaur you could bring them back to life and as dinosaurs once existed then physics doesn’t stop you doing it. However even if physics allows it, we don’t have enough knowledge or control over DNA to do it (and probably never will).
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