Alcohol induced Blackout & consciousness
Discussion
Whilst walking the dog I was discussing consciousness with my teenage daughter (mainly pointing out that it is something humans are only just starting to understand). We talked about memory and the role it plays in maintaining a sense of self - the continuity of the “l” narrative that distinguishes the conscious state. My daughter asked a perceptive question. I had previously told her of a night out when I was a student where myself and my group of friends remembered being in the pub and we remembered being back at the halls but no-one remembered the journey home! My daughter asked whether we were still “conscious” on that journey home (in the sense of having consciousness as we were clearly awake). I didn’t know how to answer her.
I also wonder if it depends on the type of alcohol consumed.
When I was in the RN, we had a stop in Gibraltar (shocker, I know), as part of our Run Ashore I was drinking a cocktail that contained Gin, I don't actually like Gin, so hadn't had it before or since.
However, this is the only night out I've had where I can't remember a reasonable proportion of it. About 2 hours, all of which was spent in one particular pub, that I have absolutely no recollection of. I was reminded of the events the next day by the Flight Cdr (I wasn't even in that branch of the RN).
When I was in the RN, we had a stop in Gibraltar (shocker, I know), as part of our Run Ashore I was drinking a cocktail that contained Gin, I don't actually like Gin, so hadn't had it before or since.
However, this is the only night out I've had where I can't remember a reasonable proportion of it. About 2 hours, all of which was spent in one particular pub, that I have absolutely no recollection of. I was reminded of the events the next day by the Flight Cdr (I wasn't even in that branch of the RN).
AshVX220 said:
I also wonder if it depends on the type of alcohol consumed.
When I was in the RN, we had a stop in Gibraltar (shocker, I know), as part of our Run Ashore I was drinking a cocktail that contained Gin, I don't actually like Gin, so hadn't had it before or since.
However, this is the only night out I've had where I can't remember a reasonable proportion of it. About 2 hours, all of which was spent in one particular pub, that I have absolutely no recollection of. I was reminded of the events the next day by the Flight Cdr (I wasn't even in that branch of the RN).
Could be a factor. Only once have I honestly blanked out and iv been unable to walk from me and a friend buying 3 trays of shots while in america, each tray containing a mere 40 shots.. still remember every detail, and every detail of hugging the toilet all night.When I was in the RN, we had a stop in Gibraltar (shocker, I know), as part of our Run Ashore I was drinking a cocktail that contained Gin, I don't actually like Gin, so hadn't had it before or since.
However, this is the only night out I've had where I can't remember a reasonable proportion of it. About 2 hours, all of which was spent in one particular pub, that I have absolutely no recollection of. I was reminded of the events the next day by the Flight Cdr (I wasn't even in that branch of the RN).
Not even that drunk but on strongbow mixed with tennents at a fancy dress birthday house party, only thing I remember of coming home is actually being upside down in a bush. No idea how I go upside down in a bush, cant even remember getting out the bush or getting home. Wasnt even sick the next day. Hell maybe we was both spiked.
This is a good question from the OP, or his daughter actually ! My answer would be that you are conscious but the alcohol means you are not consciously recording events for replay later.
I don't believe you even need to be drunk to be in this state, where you are not recording events. We have all walked somewhere or driven somewhere and whilst not crashing or walking into a lamp post you can be what is termed "miles away" ... you eventually snap out of it but then will not be able to recall specific events such as how many people walked past you or similar.
The brain seems to let you function whilst thinking about other things, so functioning is not reliant on active thinking and storing those thoughts, so when you get drunk and active thinking and storage is reduced massively you can still function.
I am no expert though. Darn, I need a drink now, my head hurts....
I don't believe you even need to be drunk to be in this state, where you are not recording events. We have all walked somewhere or driven somewhere and whilst not crashing or walking into a lamp post you can be what is termed "miles away" ... you eventually snap out of it but then will not be able to recall specific events such as how many people walked past you or similar.
The brain seems to let you function whilst thinking about other things, so functioning is not reliant on active thinking and storing those thoughts, so when you get drunk and active thinking and storage is reduced massively you can still function.
I am no expert though. Darn, I need a drink now, my head hurts....
I take lots of long haul flights and used to use sleeping tablets and alcohol in various doses. One day I woke up at home in the morning with no recollection of how I got there. This includes getting off the plane, driving home, apparently conversing with my wife and children before going to bed.
I was obviously fully conscious and for all intents and purposes lucid, but as above I guess my brain wasn't transferring the activity correctly to memory. It was very odd and I no longer use either method to while away time on flights.
I was obviously fully conscious and for all intents and purposes lucid, but as above I guess my brain wasn't transferring the activity correctly to memory. It was very odd and I no longer use either method to while away time on flights.
Esceptico said:
I had previously told her of a night out when I was a student where myself and my group of friends remembered being in the pub and we remembered being back at the halls but no-one remembered the journey home! My daughter asked whether we were still “conscious” on that journey home (in the sense of having consciousness as we were clearly awake). I didn’t know how to answer her.
99.999% of everything you've done is forgotten, probably because what you did after cleaning your teeth on 7 Sep 1997 is of no importance.We've all driven home from somewhere and have no recollection of journey details - you're not drunk, it's just the brain working on different levels.
NB Where does 'black-out' come in to your story?
I was reading recently that monkeys, especially chimpanzees, have better short term memory than we do.
The area of the brain that corresponds to short term memory is smaller in humans because part of it has been specialised to our speech & language capabilities. Quite the evolutionary trade off.
Here's a monkey showing its ability to see and remember patterns really quickly. Way faster than I can do at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiDHXtM0VA
Still, after a few pints I reckon I could take him.
The area of the brain that corresponds to short term memory is smaller in humans because part of it has been specialised to our speech & language capabilities. Quite the evolutionary trade off.
Here's a monkey showing its ability to see and remember patterns really quickly. Way faster than I can do at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiDHXtM0VA
Still, after a few pints I reckon I could take him.
Simpo Two said:
99.999% of everything you've done is forgotten, probably because what you did after cleaning your teeth on 7 Sep 1997 is of no importance.
We've all driven home from somewhere and have no recollection of journey details - you're not drunk, it's just the brain working on different levels.
NB Where does 'black-out' come in to your story?
Perhaps you have never been drunk enough to experience black out. It isn’t like driving home with your mind on something else and then not being able to recall the journey home. More like having an operation under general anaesthetic where you just lose time, with the difference that you were walking and talking during the period of lost time even though you can’t recall anything you did.We've all driven home from somewhere and have no recollection of journey details - you're not drunk, it's just the brain working on different levels.
NB Where does 'black-out' come in to your story?
Esceptico said:
Perhaps you have never been drunk enough to experience black out. It isn’t like driving home with your mind on something else and then not being able to recall the journey home. More like having an operation under general anaesthetic where you just lose time, with the difference that you were walking and talking during the period of lost time even though you can’t recall anything you did.
Well either you drank until you passed out, or you just forgot because you were pissed. If you got home without being carried then you must have been conscious enough to walk. Just because you don't remember something doesn't mean you were unconscious, it means you forgot. If you remember everything you've ever done you're not H. sapiens.Beati Dogu said:
I was reading recently that monkeys, especially chimpanzees, have better short term memory than we do.
The area of the brain that corresponds to short term memory is smaller in humans because part of it has been specialised to our speech & language capabilities. Quite the evolutionary trade off.
Here's a monkey showing its ability to see and remember patterns really quickly. Way faster than I can do at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiDHXtM0VA
Still, after a few pints I reckon I could take him.
That video is bloody amazing! The area of the brain that corresponds to short term memory is smaller in humans because part of it has been specialised to our speech & language capabilities. Quite the evolutionary trade off.
Here's a monkey showing its ability to see and remember patterns really quickly. Way faster than I can do at least.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPiDHXtM0VA
Still, after a few pints I reckon I could take him.
This discussion chimes with something I was thinking only the other day.
About five years ago I had a major operation that lasted about 14 hours. I can remember being prepped for the anaesthetic and even that rapid slide down the slippery slope as the drug kicked in. The next thing I knew I was waking up in intensive care.
There was no feeling of having been 'asleep', just nothing. No sense of time having passed at all. When you wake up in the morning after a long night's sleep, you don't feel that you have been nowhere for all that time. You know that you were still there, dreaming or not. But with that operation there was no feeling of having existed at all during all that time. It was an entirely different experience.
So where was I?
I started to wonder why it was that my individual consciousness should wake up again within the confines of my own skull, after so many hours seemingly unattached to my physical body. It sounds odd, but I felt I could have woken up anywhere.
Then, of course, thoughts of mortality kicked in. I suppose that when you die you slip out of the realm of self aware consciousness (not wakefulness, which is a different thing) but, unlike after an operation, you just don't come back. There will be no memory of your life, for there is nothing present any more to do the remembering. It seems a very easy thing to do. If the operation had gone wrong, I had experienced exactly what it is like to die when I was anaesthetised.
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
About five years ago I had a major operation that lasted about 14 hours. I can remember being prepped for the anaesthetic and even that rapid slide down the slippery slope as the drug kicked in. The next thing I knew I was waking up in intensive care.
There was no feeling of having been 'asleep', just nothing. No sense of time having passed at all. When you wake up in the morning after a long night's sleep, you don't feel that you have been nowhere for all that time. You know that you were still there, dreaming or not. But with that operation there was no feeling of having existed at all during all that time. It was an entirely different experience.
So where was I?
I started to wonder why it was that my individual consciousness should wake up again within the confines of my own skull, after so many hours seemingly unattached to my physical body. It sounds odd, but I felt I could have woken up anywhere.
Then, of course, thoughts of mortality kicked in. I suppose that when you die you slip out of the realm of self aware consciousness (not wakefulness, which is a different thing) but, unlike after an operation, you just don't come back. There will be no memory of your life, for there is nothing present any more to do the remembering. It seems a very easy thing to do. If the operation had gone wrong, I had experienced exactly what it is like to die when I was anaesthetised.
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
Whilst we're on monkeys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk
I wonder if these ones have problems with short term memory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk
I wonder if these ones have problems with short term memory
Roofless Toothless said:
This discussion chimes with something I was thinking only the other day.
About five years ago I had a major operation that lasted about 14 hours. I can remember being prepped for the anaesthetic and even that rapid slide down the slippery slope as the drug kicked in. The next thing I knew I was waking up in intensive care.
There was no feeling of having been 'asleep', just nothing. No sense of time having passed at all. When you wake up in the morning after a long night's sleep, you don't feel that you have been nowhere for all that time. You know that you were still there, dreaming or not. But with that operation there was no feeling of having existed at all during all that time. It was an entirely different experience.
So where was I?
I started to wonder why it was that my individual consciousness should wake up again within the confines of my own skull, after so many hours seemingly unattached to my physical body. It sounds odd, but I felt I could have woken up anywhere.
Then, of course, thoughts of mortality kicked in. I suppose that when you die you slip out of the realm of self aware consciousness (not wakefulness, which is a different thing) but, unlike after an operation, you just don't come back. There will be no memory of your life, for there is nothing present any more to do the remembering. It seems a very easy thing to do. If the operation had gone wrong, I had experienced exactly what it is like to die when I was anaesthetised.
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
I have had the exact same thoughts, albeit after a minor 2 hour operation under general anaesthetic. About five years ago I had a major operation that lasted about 14 hours. I can remember being prepped for the anaesthetic and even that rapid slide down the slippery slope as the drug kicked in. The next thing I knew I was waking up in intensive care.
There was no feeling of having been 'asleep', just nothing. No sense of time having passed at all. When you wake up in the morning after a long night's sleep, you don't feel that you have been nowhere for all that time. You know that you were still there, dreaming or not. But with that operation there was no feeling of having existed at all during all that time. It was an entirely different experience.
So where was I?
I started to wonder why it was that my individual consciousness should wake up again within the confines of my own skull, after so many hours seemingly unattached to my physical body. It sounds odd, but I felt I could have woken up anywhere.
Then, of course, thoughts of mortality kicked in. I suppose that when you die you slip out of the realm of self aware consciousness (not wakefulness, which is a different thing) but, unlike after an operation, you just don't come back. There will be no memory of your life, for there is nothing present any more to do the remembering. It seems a very easy thing to do. If the operation had gone wrong, I had experienced exactly what it is like to die when I was anaesthetised.
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
You put it into words far better than I ever could though!
I remember the strange, 'where am I going' feeling as the drugs kicked in, then I'm on a post op ward.
No feeling of being asleep in between. No feeling of passed time. Just, different.
As you say, thoughts of mortality come into play and then I struggle with it all to be honest!
Roofless Toothless said:
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
On a slightly serious note, you might find this interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYUOn a slightly less serious note try taking acid*
- excuse to link to Gossipmongers Space Worm story: https://youtu.be/6S6gOX-ktk4?t=1233
Roofless Toothless said:
This discussion chimes with something I was thinking only the other day.
About five years ago I had a major operation that lasted about 14 hours. I can remember being prepped for the anaesthetic and even that rapid slide down the slippery slope as the drug kicked in. The next thing I knew I was waking up in intensive care.
There was no feeling of having been 'asleep', just nothing. No sense of time having passed at all. When you wake up in the morning after a long night's sleep, you don't feel that you have been nowhere for all that time. You know that you were still there, dreaming or not. But with that operation there was no feeling of having existed at all during all that time. It was an entirely different experience.
So where was I?
I started to wonder why it was that my individual consciousness should wake up again within the confines of my own skull, after so many hours seemingly unattached to my physical body. It sounds odd, but I felt I could have woken up anywhere.
Then, of course, thoughts of mortality kicked in. I suppose that when you die you slip out of the realm of self aware consciousness (not wakefulness, which is a different thing) but, unlike after an operation, you just don't come back. There will be no memory of your life, for there is nothing present any more to do the remembering. It seems a very easy thing to do. If the operation had gone wrong, I had experienced exactly what it is like to die when I was anaesthetised.
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
I had a biopsy with a full anaesthetic and my heartrate speeded up to 200 plus and then stopped. This is bad. I was given cardiac massage – a thump on the chest. It broke ribs, where they connect to the breastbone. I woke up two days later in intensive care. I had no memory of anything.About five years ago I had a major operation that lasted about 14 hours. I can remember being prepped for the anaesthetic and even that rapid slide down the slippery slope as the drug kicked in. The next thing I knew I was waking up in intensive care.
There was no feeling of having been 'asleep', just nothing. No sense of time having passed at all. When you wake up in the morning after a long night's sleep, you don't feel that you have been nowhere for all that time. You know that you were still there, dreaming or not. But with that operation there was no feeling of having existed at all during all that time. It was an entirely different experience.
So where was I?
I started to wonder why it was that my individual consciousness should wake up again within the confines of my own skull, after so many hours seemingly unattached to my physical body. It sounds odd, but I felt I could have woken up anywhere.
Then, of course, thoughts of mortality kicked in. I suppose that when you die you slip out of the realm of self aware consciousness (not wakefulness, which is a different thing) but, unlike after an operation, you just don't come back. There will be no memory of your life, for there is nothing present any more to do the remembering. It seems a very easy thing to do. If the operation had gone wrong, I had experienced exactly what it is like to die when I was anaesthetised.
So where was I during the operation? If I can be switched off and on so completely there must be some kind or repository for all my memories and the traits of character that makes me 'me'. Or I would wake up and have a mind as empty as a new born baby's. Does this consist of the synaptic connections in my brain, that is, something purely mechanical, or does consciousness have an existence that is non corporeal, where it can be held in abeyance, at least for a time.
About ten years later I had another biopsy but the anaesthetist wanted me to take a sleeping pill the day before, then pre-med, then full med. I collapsed after taking the sleeping pill, this on the Sunday, and woke up, I’m told, on Thursday in intensive care and had a conversation with my wife. I have no memory of this (not unique of course). I was sent home on Friday, and my first memory was of Saturday afternoon. I fell asleep on Saturday eve, woke up Sunday midday and couldn’t get back to sleep until Tuesday morning.
I met with the surgeon to be given feedback and asked him about the loss of a week. He said that even anaesthetists have no idea. Anaesthetics are used without any knowledge of what the hell they do.
Not reassuring.
Wow, Derek! That was quite an adventure.
At least my operation all went to plan, even if it was long. I had a cancer in my lower jaw under my back teeth, and they chopped out a whole section of jaw (plus lymph glands from my neck) and built me a new face using my shinbone and a pound of flesh attached thereto.
They invited me to meet the surgical team before the operation, and when I walked into the room I was surprised to see more than a dozen of them there. It was explained that there was a team for my leg and a team for my face, comprising two shifts for each team. Until this point I had been thinking along the lines of, "it's a bit of a big operation this, it could take two or three hours." Then I was told it was an estimated 12 to 14 hours!
It was only at this point it dawned on me exactly what I was in for. Like a fool I just said, "well, I hope you've all brought sandwiches." Where that came from I don't know because I was starting to brick it, and I genuinely was grateful I was sitting down.
Intensive care lasted a week, as they had to monitor a lot of joined up blood vessels to make sure the plumbing was working alright. Plus I had tubes going up my nose for food, and the same at the other end. Together with drains, drips and so on there were tubes everywhere. I couldn't think too straight on waking, and no exaggeration, I spent most of the first two days trying to count how many, but I always lost count at about ten and had to start again! Still, it was something to do.
Now you know where part of my user name comes from!
Going back to the point of the thread, ever since I have been interested in the nature of knowledge and consciousness, philosophically speaking. I have been much affected by the thoughts of Spinoza and Kant about the nature of reality and what it is actually possible to know. I do not believe in any religious sense about the afterlife, but I sneakily suspect there is something going on with the mind that is not explainable in any purely physical terms.
At least my operation all went to plan, even if it was long. I had a cancer in my lower jaw under my back teeth, and they chopped out a whole section of jaw (plus lymph glands from my neck) and built me a new face using my shinbone and a pound of flesh attached thereto.
They invited me to meet the surgical team before the operation, and when I walked into the room I was surprised to see more than a dozen of them there. It was explained that there was a team for my leg and a team for my face, comprising two shifts for each team. Until this point I had been thinking along the lines of, "it's a bit of a big operation this, it could take two or three hours." Then I was told it was an estimated 12 to 14 hours!
It was only at this point it dawned on me exactly what I was in for. Like a fool I just said, "well, I hope you've all brought sandwiches." Where that came from I don't know because I was starting to brick it, and I genuinely was grateful I was sitting down.
Intensive care lasted a week, as they had to monitor a lot of joined up blood vessels to make sure the plumbing was working alright. Plus I had tubes going up my nose for food, and the same at the other end. Together with drains, drips and so on there were tubes everywhere. I couldn't think too straight on waking, and no exaggeration, I spent most of the first two days trying to count how many, but I always lost count at about ten and had to start again! Still, it was something to do.
Now you know where part of my user name comes from!
Going back to the point of the thread, ever since I have been interested in the nature of knowledge and consciousness, philosophically speaking. I have been much affected by the thoughts of Spinoza and Kant about the nature of reality and what it is actually possible to know. I do not believe in any religious sense about the afterlife, but I sneakily suspect there is something going on with the mind that is not explainable in any purely physical terms.
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