Is Maths Truly the Universal Language?
Discussion
I have always been led to believe and understand that Maths is a universal language that should be understood by any intelligent civilisation in the Universe.
For me it comes down to very simply that 1 is indicative of a single object, 2 of 2 etc, etc, etc.
Now, my mate (who is quite smarter, certainly smarter than me) suggested at the weekend that it's not, because our entire numbering system is based off of 10 (and multiples there-of, 10, 100, 1000 etc, etc.) And that this is primarily because we have 10 fingers and this is where the depiction of 10 and multiples of it come from.
An alien civilisation, that possess 12 digits would, or could, have a different way of counting and representing numbers.
But, in my mind that's just the way the numbers are represented or counted. But at the very base level 1 is still 1 and 10 is still 10 and calculations using any number work (when done correctly of course).
Does the view that other alien civilisations that represent numbers in a different or totally alien way carry any weight? I'm un-convinced.
For me it comes down to very simply that 1 is indicative of a single object, 2 of 2 etc, etc, etc.
Now, my mate (who is quite smarter, certainly smarter than me) suggested at the weekend that it's not, because our entire numbering system is based off of 10 (and multiples there-of, 10, 100, 1000 etc, etc.) And that this is primarily because we have 10 fingers and this is where the depiction of 10 and multiples of it come from.
An alien civilisation, that possess 12 digits would, or could, have a different way of counting and representing numbers.
But, in my mind that's just the way the numbers are represented or counted. But at the very base level 1 is still 1 and 10 is still 10 and calculations using any number work (when done correctly of course).
Does the view that other alien civilisations that represent numbers in a different or totally alien way carry any weight? I'm un-convinced.
There is a tribe who have no concept of numbers so no, maths is not universal.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazi...
https://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazi...
AshVX220 said:
I have always been led to believe and understand that Maths is a universal language that should be understood by any intelligent civilisation in the Universe.
For me it comes down to very simply that 1 is indicative of a single object, 2 of 2 etc, etc, etc.
Now, my mate (who is quite smarter, certainly smarter than me) suggested at the weekend that it's not, because our entire numbering system is based off of 10 (and multiples there-of, 10, 100, 1000 etc, etc.) And that this is primarily because we have 10 fingers and this is where the depiction of 10 and multiples of it come from.
An alien civilisation, that possess 12 digits would, or could, have a different way of counting and representing numbers.
But, in my mind that's just the way the numbers are represented or counted. But at the very base level 1 is still 1 and 10 is still 10 and calculations using any number work (when done correctly of course).
Does the view that other alien civilisations that represent numbers in a different or totally alien way carry any weight? I'm un-convinced.
I'd probably agree with you more than your friend, regardless of the base system used the rules and laws will not change. There are some laws I believe which are technically philosophical as you cannot irrefutably prove them, but at the same time nobody's been able to prove they don't work over about 1000 years either.For me it comes down to very simply that 1 is indicative of a single object, 2 of 2 etc, etc, etc.
Now, my mate (who is quite smarter, certainly smarter than me) suggested at the weekend that it's not, because our entire numbering system is based off of 10 (and multiples there-of, 10, 100, 1000 etc, etc.) And that this is primarily because we have 10 fingers and this is where the depiction of 10 and multiples of it come from.
An alien civilisation, that possess 12 digits would, or could, have a different way of counting and representing numbers.
But, in my mind that's just the way the numbers are represented or counted. But at the very base level 1 is still 1 and 10 is still 10 and calculations using any number work (when done correctly of course).
Does the view that other alien civilisations that represent numbers in a different or totally alien way carry any weight? I'm un-convinced.
AshVX220 said:
...because our entire numbering system is based off of 10 (and multiples there-of, 10, 100, 1000 etc, etc.) And that this is primarily because we have 10 fingers and this is where the depiction of 10 and multiples of it come from.
Do you mean 10 fingers in binary, decimal or hexadecimal? Decimal systems certainly haven't always predominated in human civilisation - 12 pence in a shilling, 20 shillings in a pound - 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 6 feet in a fathom, 22 yards in a chain, 10 chains in a furlong, 8 furlongs in a mile. 3 and 1/3 smidgins in a sprinkling. That sort of thing.
Mr Pointy said:
There is a tribe who have no concept of numbers so no, maths is not universal.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazi...
That’s a fascinating read, thank you for posting the link.https://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazi...
garyhun said:
Mr Pointy said:
There is a tribe who have no concept of numbers so no, maths is not universal.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazi...
That’s a fascinating read, thank you for posting the link.https://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazi...
Mr Pointy said:
The thing is we can't un-know what numbers are. If you don't have numbers, how do you know how many fish you need to feed the tribe? It's almost impossible for us to conceptualise how it could be done. Mind you, since it seems a very limited phenomonon it was obviously very useful to most civilisations to invent the concept of numbers.
I know, very difficult to comprehend. The one thing I do like, although again difficult to comprehend, is the notion of no past or future, rather like a happy dog living in and for the present. Not necessarily going to lead to any technological advancements though!
eharding said:
AshVX220 said:
...because our entire numbering system is based off of 10 (and multiples there-of, 10, 100, 1000 etc, etc.) And that this is primarily because we have 10 fingers and this is where the depiction of 10 and multiples of it come from.
Do you mean 10 fingers in binary, decimal or hexadecimal? Decimal systems certainly haven't always predominated in human civilisation - 12 pence in a shilling, 20 shillings in a pound - 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 6 feet in a fathom, 22 yards in a chain, 10 chains in a furlong, 8 furlongs in a mile. 3 and 1/3 smidgins in a sprinkling. That sort of thing.
But the decimal system is only really a way of representing numbers and doesn't affect the concepts. For a long time some European countries used Roman numerals for recording and base 10 Arabic for calculating. Or base 12 for shillings and hours. Now we use decimal Arabic or very occasionally Roman for recording, and decimal Arabic or (behind the scenes) binary for calculating. So even if the aliens do use base 12 exclusively we should be able to communicate.
Some of us remember using textbooks dated MCMLXV to learn how to calculate change by subtracting 6 and 7 from 7 and 6.
Dr Jekyll said:
Roman numerals are an interesting one. On the face of it in no case at all. But actually based on 5s and 10s.
But the decimal system is only really a way of representing numbers and doesn't affect the concepts. For a long time some European countries used Roman numerals for recording and base 10 Arabic for calculating. Or base 12 for shillings and hours. Now we use decimal Arabic or very occasionally Roman for recording, and decimal Arabic or (behind the scenes) binary for calculating. So even if the aliens do use base 12 exclusively we should be able to communicate.
Some of us remember using textbooks dated MCMLXV to learn how to calculate change by subtracting 6 and 7 from 7 and 6.
Please Sir....But the decimal system is only really a way of representing numbers and doesn't affect the concepts. For a long time some European countries used Roman numerals for recording and base 10 Arabic for calculating. Or base 12 for shillings and hours. Now we use decimal Arabic or very occasionally Roman for recording, and decimal Arabic or (behind the scenes) binary for calculating. So even if the aliens do use base 12 exclusively we should be able to communicate.
Some of us remember using textbooks dated MCMLXV to learn how to calculate change by subtracting 6 and 7 from 7 and 6.
I know the answer
Didn't even have to pick up my slide rule!
but my workings did involve three half-crowns.
Loving the responses on this thread, particularly the link about the tribe that have no concept of counting at all, which I find utterly bizarre and amazing in equal measure.
I guess that there are to trains of thought here, the concept of numbers and counting and the actual physical methods we use (going back to the non-decimal metrics we've adopted in the past).
I guess that the whole thing centers around the "scary maths" side of things, which are all equation based and can be used to show all sorts of intelligent concepts etc.
Computers obviously now all have a starting point of binary, which can be used to do complex things, although binary has been replaced by hexidecimal, is this to make the calculations more efficient?
I believe it is still a universal language for any intelligent civilisation to use, as one object will always be one object, a prime number will always be a prime number.
I guess that there are to trains of thought here, the concept of numbers and counting and the actual physical methods we use (going back to the non-decimal metrics we've adopted in the past).
I guess that the whole thing centers around the "scary maths" side of things, which are all equation based and can be used to show all sorts of intelligent concepts etc.
Computers obviously now all have a starting point of binary, which can be used to do complex things, although binary has been replaced by hexidecimal, is this to make the calculations more efficient?
I believe it is still a universal language for any intelligent civilisation to use, as one object will always be one object, a prime number will always be a prime number.
AshVX220 said:
I believe it is still a universal language for any intelligent civilisation to use, as one object will always be one object, a prime number will always be a prime number.
The periodical cicadas are interesting. They live for years underground as juveniles then emerge en masse to live as adults for just a few weeks and lay some eggs. It was once thought there was a species that emerged every 13 years and one that emerged every 17 years. It now turns out there are several species that all have a 13 year and a 17 year strain.The significance appears to be that 13 and 17 are prime numbers. This strategy is believed to have evolved either to make it less likely that a predator species can get in sync, or because 13 and 17 year Cicadas tended not to hybridise with other species.
That is interesting. It makes the Counting Pines sound almost sensible 😀
Dr Jekyll said:
The periodical cicadas are interesting. They live for years underground as juveniles then emerge en masse to live as adults for just a few weeks and lay some eggs. It was once thought there was a species that emerged every 13 years and one that emerged every 17 years. It now turns out there are several species that all have a 13 year and a 17 year strain.
The significance appears to be that 13 and 17 are prime numbers. This strategy is believed to have evolved either to make it less likely that a predator species can get in sync, or because 13 and 17 year Cicadas tended not to hybridise with other species.
The significance appears to be that 13 and 17 are prime numbers. This strategy is believed to have evolved either to make it less likely that a predator species can get in sync, or because 13 and 17 year Cicadas tended not to hybridise with other species.
Numbers are only part of mathematics. Maths isn't and can't do everything, but it's as 'universal' as universal can be. We can’t do much without it or, at least, it allows us to do many things much better.
I don't understand people boasting of their ignorance of maths. No one boasts of illiteracy. Worse still is the total lack of mathematics unashamedly demonstrated by almost all of our politicians - and don't just mean their failure to recall numbers.
I don't understand people boasting of their ignorance of maths. No one boasts of illiteracy. Worse still is the total lack of mathematics unashamedly demonstrated by almost all of our politicians - and don't just mean their failure to recall numbers.
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