A question about dark matter

A question about dark matter

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Discussion

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

46,497 posts

255 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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Can dark matter be drawn into a black hole?

Bemused of Brighton

stew-STR160

8,006 posts

245 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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Since we don't even understand what DM could be, if it even really exists, or is just a fancy mathematical trick...yes/no/maybe.

Eric Mc

122,856 posts

272 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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Dark matter is a phrase rather than something real. It has been invented to try and explain why the universe behaves the way it does. It may not even exist, because we may not really understand why the universe behaves the way it does.

If it DOES exist and it really is a form of "matter", then all matter has mass and therefore it would be affected by gravity, including the gravity generated by black holes.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

46,497 posts

255 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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Rather where I am.

I saw How the Universe Works, and at no time did they mention if DM was affected by the pull of a black hole.


AshVX220

5,933 posts

197 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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If it exists, are dark matter and anti-matter the same thing?

Eric Mc

122,856 posts

272 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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AshVX220 said:
If it exists, are dark matter and anti-matter the same thing?
No.

Although there might be anti Dark Matter.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

46,497 posts

255 months

Monday 29th April 2019
quotequote all
Dark matter exists as a phenomenon. We can see effects so there must be something that causes such things. Giving it a name makes it look like scientists know what it is.

The fact they can't explain what it is does not mean it does not exist. It seems, from reading popular science publications, that there are many arguments about what gravity is. It must exist of course, because I fell down the stairs once, but it seems our understanding (I say our, I mean their) understanding is based, to a certain extent, on, if not faith, then hope.

I read a lot about Einstein, including both Hawking's books on the subject, yet now I have no valid opinions.

This sciency stuff can get very confusing.

During the programme on TV I wondered if dark matter might be in black holes and, if so, did the 'amount' of DM make a difference.


Eric Mc

122,856 posts

272 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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SOMETHING is causing the effects seen. However, it may not be matter. There is also something they refer to as "Dark Energy" - which is another made up phenomenon used to explain currently unexplained characteristics regarding the expansion of the universe.

Gary C

13,171 posts

186 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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Put simply

Its matter we cant see.

We think its there, because calculations using current theories need it to be their to match the theory to the observable universe, but we cant find it.

As a lot of space is fairly dark, there could easily be lots of things out there not reflecting a great deal of light, hence 'Dark matter'

However Douglas Adams thought all the missing mass of the universe was actually hidden in the little foam squiggles used as packing in boxes.

Derek Smith

Original Poster:

46,497 posts

255 months

Monday 29th April 2019
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
SOMETHING is causing the effects seen. However, it may not be matter. There is also something they refer to as "Dark Energy" - which is another made up phenomenon used to explain currently unexplained characteristics regarding the expansion of the universe.
What might be causing the effects that have been found is a poor understanding of gravity. Perhaps, whisper it, Einstein, like that other genius Newton, might be wrong. Or at least, his theory is not spot on.

If history tells us anything - and it tells us a lot - Einstein's theory will be modified at least in the future.

One TV programme said something along the lines of; The proof of Einstein's genius was in challenging Newton. Principia was accepted as invioalble in the same way as relativity is now. Therefore, what's causing the effects could be a misunderstanding of what the effects are. That seems to cover all the objections.

The cosmological constant was mentioned in the TV programme, and in a number of articles in New Scientist. That appears to me as desperation. But, like Einstein, I've been wrong before.

It might be better if the terms matter and energy were replaced by something with less of an assumption implicit in them. How about dark teddy for the former and dark lollipop for the second?


andy_s

19,607 posts

266 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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Derek Smith said:
Eric Mc said:
SOMETHING is causing the effects seen. However, it may not be matter. There is also something they refer to as "Dark Energy" - which is another made up phenomenon used to explain currently unexplained characteristics regarding the expansion of the universe.
What might be causing the effects that have been found is a poor understanding of gravity. Perhaps, whisper it, Einstein, like that other genius Newton, might be wrong. Or at least, his theory is not spot on.

If history tells us anything - and it tells us a lot - Einstein's theory will be modified at least in the future.

One TV programme said something along the lines of; The proof of Einstein's genius was in challenging Newton. Principia was accepted as invioalble in the same way as relativity is now. Therefore, what's causing the effects could be a misunderstanding of what the effects are. That seems to cover all the objections.

The cosmological constant was mentioned in the TV programme, and in a number of articles in New Scientist. That appears to me as desperation. But, like Einstein, I've been wrong before.

It might be better if the terms matter and energy were replaced by something with less of an assumption implicit in them. How about dark teddy for the former and dark lollipop for the second?
The evidence for gravity tweaks [Modified Newtonian Dynamics] has been eroded over time I think, the main one being the collision of two clusters which showed distribution to be as expected following 'DM' theory but not MOND [see 'Bullet Cluster'] and more recently the examination of 'ghost' or ultra-diffuse galaxies that appear not to contain DM - which in a perverse way shows that MOND is less likely to be the case - although these results are recent and being queried.

Unsurprisingly there are many theories on why galaxies behave in the way they do and why the universe is expanding quicker than it should ['DE'] and for myself DM/DE is an unsatisfying explanation but it seems to be the most consistent with observations so far. I think with the improved LHC coming back online with a mission to look for non-baryons, the new space telescopes in a few years which will refine immensely observation and the next generation LIGO upgrades we'll be able to examine this profound question with far better tools and perhaps begin to understand which theories are most likely and perhaps increase our knowledge of the universe, literally, by 95%.

And yes, DM/DE is a bit of a misnomer, but they are of themselves extremely odd in the first place!

Eric Mc

122,856 posts

272 months

Monday 29th April 2019
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"Dark Matter" to me is a bit like what they used to call "Darkest Africa" where the expression "dark" just hinted at something unknown and mysterious.

Gary C

13,171 posts

186 months

Tuesday 30th April 2019
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and of course, black holes are nothing special. They are a local mass so big the gravity field is so massive not even light can escape its pull and they emit nothing but hawking radiation from the event horizon so while they are easyish to find if you know where they are, they are very difficult to spot when you dont and have to rely on their effect on light from stars being bent as they move infront of them.

As such, a huge amount of matter maybe held in black holes.

What I dont get, is why the universal expansion rate is increasing ? is the observable universe surrounded by super massive black holes smile

Eric Mc

122,856 posts

272 months

Tuesday 30th April 2019
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That is probably the greatest cosmological question of our age.

ATG

21,361 posts

279 months

Wednesday 1st May 2019
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Dark matter is deduced to exist because visible matter can't explain the mass distribution that must exist in galaxies to explain the speed at which stars are orbiting their galactic centres. So whatever DM is, it generates a gravitational field and therefore feels gravitational forces including those from black holes. No reason to think the stuff isn't falling into black holes along with everything else.

Nom de ploom

4,890 posts

181 months

Thursday 2nd May 2019
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ATG said:
Dark matter is deduced to exist because visible matter can't explain the mass distribution that must exist in galaxies to explain the speed at which stars are orbiting their galactic centres. So whatever DM is, it generates a gravitational field and therefore feels gravitational forces including those from black holes. No reason to think the stuff isn't falling into black holes along with everything else.
that is my understanding of it too.

at the galaxy level where we are in our milky way and the speed of rotation of the galaxy we should have spun off out into the universe - something is holding the spinning galaxy more stable than spinning forces suggest it should be.

that we can't see it is the perplexing issue, but it does form part of the fact we know what less than 20% of the universe actually is by observation.

if dark matter is matter, should it not have a charge and therefore by its volume be detectable? or is it antimatter or neutral? i have literally no idea.

annodomini2

6,913 posts

258 months

Tuesday 7th May 2019
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Nom de ploom said:
... but it does form part of the fact we know what less than 20% of the universe actually is by observation....
< 5%