Could you overheat an electric motor remotely?

Could you overheat an electric motor remotely?

Author
Discussion

Major Fallout

Original Poster:

5,278 posts

238 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
A big ish motor like a starter motor or shower pump, would it be possible to damage it without touching it or connecting to it?

Induction? Emp?

200Plus Club

11,192 posts

285 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Major Fallout said:
A big ish motor like a starter motor or shower pump, would it be possible to damage it without touching it or connecting to it?

Induction? Emp?
Unlikely I'd imagine

jkh112

22,940 posts

165 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Blowtorch?

98elise

28,238 posts

168 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Do you mean without power to the motor? If so then I can't see how you would do it without applying heat directly.

Gary C

13,171 posts

186 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
What an odd question.

Yes you could, microwave, induction, neutron beam, gamma beam, list goes on.

Some sort of context would be good, do you want to overheat the neighbours shower pump through the wall ?

KAgantua

4,255 posts

138 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Nuke it from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

48Valves

2,165 posts

216 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Maybe you have a Stuxnet infection?

Henners

12,276 posts

201 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
A heroically strong magnet.

Major Fallout

Original Poster:

5,278 posts

238 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
My neighbours starter motor packed up the same day mine did, and now my shower pump is intermittently running.

The really strange thing is it’s not wired up to the electricity.

Cue X-files music

98elise

28,238 posts

168 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Gary C said:
What an odd question.

Yes you could, microwave, induction, neutron beam, gamma beam, list goes on.

Some sort of context would be good, do you want to overheat the neighbours shower pump through the wall ?
Agreed. Is the question a theoretical or practical question?

In theory you can, but if you have a motor that appears to have overheated the likelihood of someone attacking it with an external source is quite small.

Gary C

13,171 posts

186 months

Wednesday 25th April 2018
quotequote all
Major Fallout said:
My neighbours starter motor packed up the same day mine did, and now my shower pump is intermittently running.

The really strange thing is it’s not wired up to the electricity.

Cue X-files music
Do you mean totally disconnected from the electricity ?

You don't live under a 400kV overhead line do you ?

McVities

354 posts

205 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all

How does the pump run if its not wired up? confused

PixelpeepS3

8,600 posts

149 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
McVities said:
How does the pump run if its not wired up? confused
it doesn't run, because it's broken... do pay attention laugh

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

262 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
Major Fallout said:
My neighbours starter motor packed up the same day mine did,
Hardly the most suspicious coincidence, there must be hundreds of starter motors that gasp their last every day.

Major Fallout said:
and now my shower pump is intermittently running.

The really strange thing is it’s not wired up to the electricity.
You are mistaken. Motors do not run without electricity.

Gary29

4,318 posts

106 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
Do you mean by using it as a generator and driving it mechanically?

200Plus Club

11,192 posts

285 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
"Breaking bad"

Toltec

7,167 posts

230 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
Sorry, must have got the beam pattern wrong, I'll tweak it.

Gary C

13,171 posts

186 months

Thursday 26th April 2018
quotequote all
Major Fallout said:
A big ish motor like a starter motor or shower pump, would it be possible to damage it without touching it or connecting to it?

Induction? Emp?
and a shower pump is not bigish smile

Come to work and I will show you some bigish electric motors running on 11,000V pulling 5-10MW


WatchfulEye

505 posts

135 months

Saturday 28th April 2018
quotequote all
There are approaches that can be used, but these involve tampering with the power to the motors, the load on the motors or the cooling of the motors.

Load tampering
Motors have a defined torque/load curve and generally offer some form of inherent speed regulation. As load increases, many motor designs will increase torque in order to attempt to maintain speed. The greater torque on the motor with regulated speed means an increase in motor power, and therefore an increase in waste heat production. An extreme example is that of a stalled motor which will draw an enormous amount of current, and rapidly burn out unless protection systems intervene to disconnect the power.

Cooling tampering
Motors of any significant size require forced cooling. In many cases, this is delivered by the motor itself, by the rotor driving an integrated fan (for air-cooled motors) or a water pump (for water cooled motors). However, these may be dependent on external systems. A good example of this is a typical vacuum cleaner motor. Blocking the suction hose will de-load the motor, as there are no pumping losses, reducing heat production. But the suction air flow is often used as the source of air to cool the motor, as it allows the primary air pump to perform both the cleaning function and the motor cooling function. By obstructing the air flow, cooling air is also obstructed and the motor will overheat quickly even in the deloaded state.

Power tampering
Heat generation is closely related to supply voltage. This is especially the case for many types of AC motor where exceeding the recommended voltage even slightly results in dramatic increases in heat generation. So, changing a voltage tap on a supply transformer to give a higher voltage may be sufficient.

Some motors are electronically controlled, where an electronic control system generated a controlled voltage/frequency to match the requirements of the motor and the currently desired speed/acceleration profile. These can often be computer controlled. This approach was used in a cyber-attack on an Iranian nuclear facility. The facility used large numbers of high power, high speed motors which were electronically controlled. A carefully crafted virus was released which infected the computers supervising the electronic motor controllers, instructing the controllers to deliver power/speed beyond the motors capability, in an attempt to destroy the motors. (Look up Stuxnet for more info).

If you don't have electronic motor controllers, then 3 phase motors could be overheated by distorting the voltage waveform. Motors are designed to operate with a pure sine wave. Distortions can be treated as superimposed sine waves of different frequencies. In a 3 phase motor, frequencies (harmonics) which are (3n+1) * 50 Hz (i.e. 50, 200, 350, 500, etc.) will drive a 3 phase motor forward. Frequencies which are 3n * 50 (i.e. 150, 300, 450, 600) will generate heat but produce no useful torque. Frequencies which are (3n - 1) * 50 (i.e. 100, 250, 400, 550, etc.) will generate not just generate heat but will generate a braking torque, which will result in the motor drawing additional current (and generating addition heat) in order to overcome the braking effect. As it happens, 3 phase rectifiers which are used in things like industrial motor controllers, UPSs, etc. wherever large quantities of DC are required generate large current pulses. These current pulses cause voltage distortion as the voltage sags under the load. Most importantly, however, these pulses produce copious amounts of 250 and 550 Hz distortion. This equipment therefore requires filters which will mitigate these 250 and 550 Hz (5th and 11th harmonic) voltage distortions - for large industrial equipment, these filters are often procured and installed separately to the device generating the problem harmonics. Compromising these filters could be a sneaky way of degrading power quality at an industrial site sufficient to degrade motor performance. As sites may not perform routine voltage waveform monitoring, only voltage/current monitoring, this type of compromise may go unnoticed for some time.