Ash Tree facing extinction in Europe
Discussion
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-3587...
Can anything be done? Presumably fungal resistant new Ash breeds can be developed in labs, but is there anything that can be done to trees currently living to increase their survivability?
Can anything be done? Presumably fungal resistant new Ash breeds can be developed in labs, but is there anything that can be done to trees currently living to increase their survivability?
On one hand it's a shame that a species of tree may go extinct in our lifetime, on the other hand it's completely natural and evidence of natural selection in action (the fungus and the beetle with go extinct in turn or different strains will attack different trees). This kind of thing must have happened many times geologically speaking but there was nobody around to catalogue it.
XM5ER said:
On one hand it's a shame that a species of tree may go extinct in our lifetime, on the other hand it's completely natural and evidence of natural selection in action (the fungus and the beetle with go extinct in turn or different strains will attack different trees). This kind of thing must have happened many times geologically speaking but there was nobody around to catalogue it.
Yeah I was wondering about whether it would do more harm than good to create an immunity for the Ash tree only to find in 2300 that every tree is an Ash tree, or a new super-beetle comes along and decimates everything having developed immunity to all of our tricks.Did any Elm trees survive infection with Dutch Elm Disease or are the survivors just lucky that they never caught it in the first place?
Forestry commission info about the disease.
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/ashdieback
As for Elms - I understand that they're still around, just that they never make it past about 11 years old, as it's then that they begin to be attacked by the beetle.
I went looking and found this: http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/pathology_note10.pd...
Turns out the mature trees left are classed as 'escapees'. Right at the bottom, it seems that some elms have been bred to have resistance. I've noticed that we've got a few self-set elms hanging around, but it would be hoping too much for them to be resistant or lucky.
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/ashdieback
As for Elms - I understand that they're still around, just that they never make it past about 11 years old, as it's then that they begin to be attacked by the beetle.
I went looking and found this: http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/pathology_note10.pd...
Turns out the mature trees left are classed as 'escapees'. Right at the bottom, it seems that some elms have been bred to have resistance. I've noticed that we've got a few self-set elms hanging around, but it would be hoping too much for them to be resistant or lucky.
Edited by Tonsko on Wednesday 23 March 15:51
XM5ER said:
On one hand it's a shame that a species of tree may go extinct in our lifetime, on the other hand it's completely natural and evidence of natural selection in action (the fungus and the beetle with go extinct in turn or different strains will attack different trees). This kind of thing must have happened many times geologically speaking but there was nobody around to catalogue it.
This kind of epidemic is caused by the sudden exposure of a group of organisms to a new predator or pathogen. It's happened many times before, eg the Aztecs all dying from colds, but is due to human travel more than natural forces.Simpo Two said:
This kind of epidemic is caused by the sudden exposure of a group of organisms to a new predator or pathogen. It's happened many times before, eg the Aztecs all dying from colds, but is due to human travel more than natural forces.
Is human travel unnatural? How did the Aztecs get there in the first place? Or were you talking about the trees? eldar said:
Both, I suspect. The Aztecs were wiped out by the Conquistadors bring colds, flu and syphillis that were unknown to the Aztecs who had no natural immunity.
It looks like the tree thing is natural from what I have read but to be fair I haven't followed that closely. As for the Aztecs, the point I was making that the Spanish intercontinental travel was no more unnatural that how the Aztecs got there in the first place. Human travel is natural even if our modes of transport no longer grow on trees (unless you count oil as ancient trees).XM5ER said:
It looks like the tree thing is natural from what I have read but to be fair I haven't followed that closely. As for the Aztecs, the point I was making that the Spanish intercontinental travel was no more unnatural that how the Aztecs got there in the first place. Human travel is natural even if our modes of transport no longer grow on trees (unless you count oil as ancient trees).
Aztecs didn't suddenly arrive. The Spanish did. Intercontinental travel was extremely limited until shipbuilding, navigation and the problems of keeping food edible and water drinkable were at least partially solved. The tree diseases are natural, but moving to new areas where there is no natural immunity or predators. Bit like Japanese Knotweed.
XM5ER said:
Is human travel unnatural? How did the Aztecs get there in the first place? Or were you talking about the trees?
Evolution is a very slow process. It wasn't to know that one of its products would build a boat and cross from one isolated ecosystem to another.Aeroplane loads of visitors carrying a myriad pathogens into an environment not evolved to cope with them is not, in the evolutionary scheme of things, natural.
That said, nature will find a way and if it means that an introduced organism wipes out a million ash trees, that's 'survival of the fittest'. And perhaps one ash tree will be, through the wonder of spontaneous mutation, resistant, and from that a new generation of ash trees may grow.
Simpo Two said:
That said, nature will find a way and if it means that an introduced organism wipes out a million ash trees, that's 'survival of the fittest'. And perhaps one ash tree will be, through the wonder of spontaneous mutation, resistant, and from that a new generation of ash trees may grow...
...And make landing on the shores of America waging mighty war against the unsuspecting AI's who ruled the continent in peace for the three hundred millennia since their final great victory over humanity.Simpo Two said:
Evolution is a very slow process. It wasn't to know that one of its products would build a boat and cross from one isolated ecosystem to another.
Aeroplane loads of visitors carrying a myriad pathogens into an environment not evolved to cope with them is not, in the evolutionary scheme of things, natural.
That said, nature will find a way and if it means that an introduced organism wipes out a million ash trees, that's 'survival of the fittest'. And perhaps one ash tree will be, through the wonder of spontaneous mutation, resistant, and from that a new generation of ash trees may grow.
Sorry I tend to rail against the notion that Humans are somehow unnatural and that any minor change in the environment is "our fault". People tend to forget the vast animal migrations that take place every year and that fact that stuff gets blown a long way around the world by the wind. I also tend to rail against the idea that the world is static and unchanging, its a very egocentric view in my opinion (irony, right there I know).Aeroplane loads of visitors carrying a myriad pathogens into an environment not evolved to cope with them is not, in the evolutionary scheme of things, natural.
That said, nature will find a way and if it means that an introduced organism wipes out a million ash trees, that's 'survival of the fittest'. And perhaps one ash tree will be, through the wonder of spontaneous mutation, resistant, and from that a new generation of ash trees may grow.
XM5ER said:
Sorry I tend to rail against the notion that Humans are somehow unnatural and that any minor change in the environment is "our fault". People tend to forget the vast animal migrations that take place every year and that fact that stuff gets blown a long way around the world by the wind. I also tend to rail against the idea that the world is static and unchanging, its a very egocentric view in my opinion (irony, right there I know).
I think evolution created rather a Pandora's Box with H. sapiens! You cold argue that it designed the being best suited to thrive on the planet - but then to Evolution's surprise it started walking upright, thinking and bashing things over the head with sticks... It thrived rather better than anticipated and the rest of the system wasn't able to keep up.Simpo Two said:
I think evolution created rather a Pandora's Box with H. sapiens! You cold argue that it designed the being best suited to thrive on the planet - but then to Evolution's surprise it started walking upright, thinking and bashing things over the head with sticks... It thrived rather better than anticipated and the rest of the system wasn't able to keep up.
You are Terry Pratchett and ICMFP. 
Simpo Two said:
I think evolution created rather a Pandora's Box with H. sapiens! You cold argue that it designed the being best suited to thrive on the planet - but then to Evolution's surprise it started walking upright, thinking and bashing things over the head with sticks... It thrived rather better than anticipated and the rest of the system wasn't able to keep up.
It will catch up though. We'll join the 99.9% of extinct species, leaving cockroaches an estate agents in the 0.01% surviving.eldar said:
It will catch up though. We'll join the 99.9% of extinct species, leaving cockroaches an estate agents in the 0.01% surviving.
Is that an Adams reference? 
I actually think that this is the most likely scenario. That we even got to the point of multicellular organisms is amazing enough. I think the chances of us maintaining our level civilization has greatly increased with the internet, but I still think that's a poor guarantee of survival as a species. Just imagine the havok that the Zika virus would have caused if it spread like influenza. Getting off the planet with a self-sustaining colony would be the tiniest glimmer of an escape velocity for mankind.
Tonsko said:
As for Elms - I understand that they're still around, just that they never make it past about 11 years old, as it's then that they begin to be attacked by the beetle.
You need to go further north for elms. There are still some in Scotland, and several thousand mature trees in Edinburgh. I seem to remember that there were trees growing in the south of England that were resistant to DED, it was a while ago though. It wouldn't surprise me if something similar happened with ash trees.Gassing Station | Science! | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff