Intersting - bullet in to block of wood

Intersting - bullet in to block of wood

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AA999

Original Poster:

5,180 posts

224 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
quotequote all
One for you physics guys...

If I were to have two identical blocks of wood on a bench with a slit in it......from beneath the bench I have two guns that each fire a bullet in to the blocks of wood.
Block of wood #1 has the bullet fired towards the centre of gravity (basically the middle of the wood), block #2 has the bullet fired 'off-centre' as shown by the pic below:




What happens is that both pieces of wood 'absorb' the bullet and they rise in to the air. Block #1 simply goes in to the air where as block #2 goes in to the air and rotates at the same time.

Question............. do both blocks reach the same height before falling back to earth?

elan_fan

140 posts

194 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
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I reckon no. The energy transferred into the left block will assuming it is hit dead centre on be forward motion. Some of the energy transferred into the right block will converted to rotary motion. Action and reaction will be equal but absorbed in different ways. I'm on the toilet at the moment so that is the best I can do. We need equations here.

AA999

Original Poster:

5,180 posts

224 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
quotequote all
any others like to put forward what would happen?
. (#1) reaching higher, equal height or not as high as (#2)?


tank slapper

7,949 posts

290 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
quotequote all
They reach the same height because it is an inelastic collision and momentum is conserved. Energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision so the total kinetic energy of each block can be different, allowing for the difference in rotation.

AA999

Original Poster:

5,180 posts

224 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
quotequote all
ah...somebody else also saw the youtube channel wink

anonymous-user

61 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
quotequote all
You also need to define "height" rather better. Ie height as being the highest point on any block irrespective of it's orientation, or height of the blocks CofG?


Simpo Two

87,123 posts

272 months

Wednesday 28th May 2014
quotequote all
tank slapper said:
They reach the same height... allowing for the difference in rotation.
I think some of the energy goes into rotation not height, so the offset block will not go quite so high.

As for 'define height' I think C of G is the relevant point to use.



Flibble

6,487 posts

188 months

Thursday 29th May 2014
quotequote all
tank slapper said:
They reach the same height because it is an inelastic collision and momentum is conserved. Energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision so the total kinetic energy of each block can be different, allowing for the difference in rotation.
But some of the momentum is transferred as angular momentum to block 2 so it should have lower linear momentum and thus travel less linear distance...

Halmyre

11,572 posts

146 months

Thursday 29th May 2014
quotequote all
Flibble said:
tank slapper said:
They reach the same height because it is an inelastic collision and momentum is conserved. Energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision so the total kinetic energy of each block can be different, allowing for the difference in rotation.
But some of the momentum is transferred as angular momentum to block 2 so it should have lower linear momentum and thus travel less linear distance...
I agree with this. In the same way as pulling on the rim of a flywheel and pulling on the hub with the same force has a different effect in each case.

AA999

Original Poster:

5,180 posts

224 months

Thursday 29th May 2014
quotequote all
Well, according to a particular youtube science channel this question got a wide range of responses with even established people in the field arriving at an incorrect answer.

The blocks actually reach the same height (on average), meaning that there is no average difference in height reached between the two scenarios.

People who attempted to answer this question used a whole plethora of established methods/equations but the simplest route is often the best solution.


Basically it is the conservation of liner momentum that trumps the other methodologies.
As the bullet enters each block the bullet in block 1 goes further in to the wood dispersing its energy as material deformation & heat, where as the bullet in block 2 does the same thing but does not travel as far in to the wood due to the fact that the wood starts to rotate away from it with the bullet entry.
BUT, liner momentum is conserved, meaning that the upward momentum of the bullets is the same in both cases, so therefore the resultant upward momentum of bullet and wood in both cases will also be the same.

Linear momentum and angular momentum are not 'coupled', they are independent, in that momentum is only preserved in each case.
So basically we are not looking for the preservation of liner momentum to be found in resultant angular momentum.

The rotational energy is found from the fact that the bullet in block 2 does not travel as far in to the wood as in block 1; this difference in distance accounts for the energy transfer from bullet k.e. in to block rotational energy.

Here is the explainind video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLYoyLcdGPc



Simpo Two

87,123 posts

272 months

Thursday 29th May 2014
quotequote all
AA999 said:
Linear momentum and angular momentum are not 'coupled'
So where is the force that spins the block coming from? The bullet has a fixed amount of energy.

Moonhawk

10,730 posts

226 months

Thursday 29th May 2014
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
So where is the force that spins the block coming from? The bullet has a fixed amount of energy.
See the second to last paragraph of the post above.

NDT

1,766 posts

270 months

Wednesday 4th June 2014
quotequote all
Utter cobblers.

Energy is conserved.
The second block cannot travel as high as the first while also spinning otherwise it would somehow have more energy than the first block.
This is really basic A-level maths / physics.

Flibble

6,487 posts

188 months

Thursday 5th June 2014
quotequote all
NDT said:
Utter cobblers.

Energy is conserved.
The second block cannot travel as high as the first while also spinning otherwise it would somehow have more energy than the first block.
This is really basic A-level maths / physics.
Not all energy is conserved as kinetic though, some goes into deforming the bullet and wood.

Simpo Two

87,123 posts

272 months

Thursday 5th June 2014
quotequote all
Moonhawk said:
Simpo Two said:
So where is the force that spins the block coming from? The bullet has a fixed amount of energy.
See the second to last paragraph of the post above.
Yes, so less force is going into 'up'.

AA999

Original Poster:

5,180 posts

224 months

Thursday 5th June 2014
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Yes, so less force is going into 'up'.
Conservation of momentum is preserved as per the law of physics.

So what happens is that the bullet enters the wood in both cases and the momentum of bullet and wood is then preserved, meaning that bullet and wood in both cases continue the upward momentum.
The difference being that one block is rotating.
This difference is noticed by the bullet not travelling as far in to the block as the other one does. So the difference in energy released by the bullet once inside the wood (oo err), is noticed by the rotation.

ie. bullet length in to wood describes its conversion of k.e. in to heat, deformation of wood material, sound etc.
....less length in to the wood means that some k.e. of that bullet travel distance has gone in to rotating the wood.

The video explains it better then I can. wink

callyman

3,160 posts

219 months

Tuesday 17th June 2014
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Good old Veratasium on You Tube.

Some great stuff on his channel.

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

262 months

Thursday 3rd July 2014
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AA999 said:
ie. bullet length in to wood describes its conversion of k.e. in to heat, deformation of wood material, sound etc.
....less length in to the wood means that some k.e. of that bullet travel distance has gone in to rotating the wood.
So some of the bullets k.e. has imparted a spin to the bit of wood, which surely leaves less k.e. to raise it?

To look at this another way: if both blocks of wood reach the same height but one is rotating and one is not, where did the extra energy come from to cause the rotation?

callyman

3,160 posts

219 months

Thursday 3rd July 2014
quotequote all
Mr2Mike said:
To look at this another way: if both blocks of wood reach the same height but one is rotating and one is not, where did the extra energy come from to cause the rotation?
All explained here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLYoyLcdGPc

vladcjelli

3,055 posts

165 months

Thursday 3rd July 2014
quotequote all
Mr2Mike said:
AA999 said:
ie. bullet length in to wood describes its conversion of k.e. in to heat, deformation of wood material, sound etc.
....less length in to the wood means that some k.e. of that bullet travel distance has gone in to rotating the wood.
So some of the bullets k.e. has imparted a spin to the bit of wood, which surely leaves less k.e. to raise it?

To look at this another way: if both blocks of wood reach the same height but one is rotating and one is not, where did the extra energy come from to cause the rotation?
Without looking at the video, the bullet hitting dead centre has an equal amount if wood either side of the point of impact. The equal weight of the block allows the bullet more time to penetrate deeper, and deform more, using up an amount of energy before lifting the block.

The bullet that hits the side begins to lift the block earlier, as there is an uneven/less weight for it to deal with before it moves. Less of the force of the bullet is absorbed on impact, so more of it translates to upward movement, albeit with some rotating.

Have I read your explanations right? I'll watch the video now.