The Power of Placebos
Discussion
MODS: this is science rather than TV.
Was anyone else a bit confused by the woman with IBS?
There was a certain irony with the fact that she went to a health food shop for a placebo. Why not go to a homeopathy outlet. The place will be full of them.
My brother, on seeing Lawrence of Arabia, decided to try the mind over matter by sticking a pin in his arm. He convinced me to try and then for some time afterwards we stuck pins in various parts of our body. I favoured the bit between thumb and forefinger, pushing it right the way through. In the end I got an infection so stopped, but it is easy enough to block out the pain.
I still use the techniques for pain but it doesn't work with toothache nor back pain. Otherwise, I can reduce any pain to bearable levels.
Was anyone else a bit confused by the woman with IBS?
There was a certain irony with the fact that she went to a health food shop for a placebo. Why not go to a homeopathy outlet. The place will be full of them.
My brother, on seeing Lawrence of Arabia, decided to try the mind over matter by sticking a pin in his arm. He convinced me to try and then for some time afterwards we stuck pins in various parts of our body. I favoured the bit between thumb and forefinger, pushing it right the way through. In the end I got an infection so stopped, but it is easy enough to block out the pain.
I still use the techniques for pain but it doesn't work with toothache nor back pain. Otherwise, I can reduce any pain to bearable levels.
A fascinating programme particularly about how it still works when the person knows it's a placebo, I always thought they had to be conned into thinking it was real in order to work. I did read somewhere once that up to 50% of the effect of many drugs is due to the placebo effect. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the research into it and particularly good (and cheap!) if we can tap into the placebo effect at will.
We use placebo controls regularly at work where it's ethical to do so. Very useful for us as we can find out pretty quickly if it's the treatment or simply being treated that's advantageous.
Problem is you can't really prescribe a placebo outwith research. It's contrary to medical ethics for a doctor to mislead their patient. Personally I think that's why we see so many otherwise smart doctors suggesting alternative therapies to patients.
Some doctors believe this should be overturned, so they should be able to lie to a patient if it's within their interests. I'm not so sure personally, then again most people lie to their doctors so it only seems fair.
Problem is you can't really prescribe a placebo outwith research. It's contrary to medical ethics for a doctor to mislead their patient. Personally I think that's why we see so many otherwise smart doctors suggesting alternative therapies to patients.
Some doctors believe this should be overturned, so they should be able to lie to a patient if it's within their interests. I'm not so sure personally, then again most people lie to their doctors so it only seems fair.
Not a whole lot of difference between "This may help your symptoms" if applied to a placebo as applied to a real drug though. I can see the issue with deliberately misleading as opposed to non-intentional misleading where the doctor thinks the drug will work but doesn't.
There's a bit of a Dara O'Brien sketch where he lays into alternative medicine starting by saying something like "The bits that worked became medicine".
There's a bit of a Dara O'Brien sketch where he lays into alternative medicine starting by saying something like "The bits that worked became medicine".
Shaolin said:
Not a whole lot of difference between "This may help your symptoms" if applied to a placebo as applied to a real drug though. I can see the issue with deliberately misleading as opposed to non-intentional misleading where the doctor thinks the drug will work but doesn't.
There's a bit of a Dara O'Brien sketch where he lays into alternative medicine starting by saying something like "The bits that worked became medicine".
Yes. He pretty much summarises the entirety of alternative medicine.There's a bit of a Dara O'Brien sketch where he lays into alternative medicine starting by saying something like "The bits that worked became medicine".
An even better one is a poem by the comedian Tim Minchin, called "STORM";
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U
Give it a chance to get going.
From "13 Things that Don't Make Sense" by Michael Brooks, describing one of the more unusual properties of pain reducing placebos:
"It all kicks off with the pain-racked patients receiving something like a morphine drip: Later, after the patients have begun to associate the morphine with pain relief, you can subtly substitute saline solution for the morphine. The patients don't know their "morphine" is nothing but salt water and, thanks to the placebo effect, they report that their pain medication is still working fine. That is strange in itself, but not as strange as the next twist makes things.
Without saying anything to the patients, you put another drug into the drip: naloxone, which blocks the action of morphine. Even though there is no morphine going into the patients' bodies, naloxone still stops the pain relief in its tracks; the patients, oblivious to all that has gone on, now report that they are in discomfort again.
The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power. Which means the saline really was doing something-it wasn't all in the patient's imagination. Or at least it means that imagination can have a physiological effect."
I think it's also true to say that the book went on to suggest that there is little reliable evidence of placebos working for anything other than pain relief, but maybe I imagined that conclusion.
"It all kicks off with the pain-racked patients receiving something like a morphine drip: Later, after the patients have begun to associate the morphine with pain relief, you can subtly substitute saline solution for the morphine. The patients don't know their "morphine" is nothing but salt water and, thanks to the placebo effect, they report that their pain medication is still working fine. That is strange in itself, but not as strange as the next twist makes things.
Without saying anything to the patients, you put another drug into the drip: naloxone, which blocks the action of morphine. Even though there is no morphine going into the patients' bodies, naloxone still stops the pain relief in its tracks; the patients, oblivious to all that has gone on, now report that they are in discomfort again.
The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power. Which means the saline really was doing something-it wasn't all in the patient's imagination. Or at least it means that imagination can have a physiological effect."
I think it's also true to say that the book went on to suggest that there is little reliable evidence of placebos working for anything other than pain relief, but maybe I imagined that conclusion.
Alfanatic said:
From "13 Things that Don't Make Sense" by Michael Brooks, describing one of the more unusual properties of pain reducing placebos: ...
The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power.
Naloxone blocks the endorphins produced by the placebo effect. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/80579. Interesting but hardly inexplicable.The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power.
Nimby said:
Alfanatic said:
From "13 Things that Don't Make Sense" by Michael Brooks, describing one of the more unusual properties of pain reducing placebos: ...
The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power.
Naloxone blocks the endorphins produced by the placebo effect. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/80579. Interesting but hardly inexplicable.The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power.
Alfanatic said:
Who mentioned magic?
Alfanatic said:
The only plausible explanation is that the drug that blocks morphine's pain-relieving power also blocks the saline's (placebo-based) pain-relieving power. Which means the saline really was doing something-it wasn't all in the patient's imagination. Or at least it means that imagination can have a physiological effect."
I think it's also true to say that the book went on to suggest that there is little reliable evidence of placebos working for anything other than pain relief, but maybe I imagined that conclusion.
I was tongue in cheek about the bold statement, which I'm deliberated quoted harshly, mostly because you implied it was the only possible conclusion (presumably an error), and also because I thought you'd take it in the manner it was intended. I think it's also true to say that the book went on to suggest that there is little reliable evidence of placebos working for anything other than pain relief, but maybe I imagined that conclusion.
On your second point. It isn't true, placebo's work surprisingly well for all manner of ailments. Hence homeopathic medicine and natural remedies, like vitamin C for example.
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