Methyl Chloride compounds - a chemistry question
Discussion
Further to some rantings of mine on the DIY board, paint strippers containing DCM used to be the dogs danglies before the EU-SSR banned them from sale. It is widely accepted that the new substitutes are pretty damn useless.
Now, I've been looking into other avenues, and it is still possible to buy DCM in tins of 99%pure form, from ebay, for other industrial uses. I'm pretty handy with chemistry as well
Now, the following is all purely hypothetical you understand...
Hypothetically, would just brushing pure DCM on the paint have the same effect of the old paint strippers where ir was the active ingredient? Or would I hypothetically need to mix it with something else as a carrier (whatever the white gloopy mixture that makes up a stripper contains?)
I'm unsure about the exact chemical process by which DCM so effectively breaks down paint, can anyone fill me in?
Could I theoretically pour a measure of DCM into a bottle of new DCM-free stripper, or would it react badly with other compounds in the new formulation? Could anyone provide a rough list of what other chemicals are usually in a paint stripper as I would be most interested in researching them and how they interact.
Thanks!
Now, I've been looking into other avenues, and it is still possible to buy DCM in tins of 99%pure form, from ebay, for other industrial uses. I'm pretty handy with chemistry as well
Now, the following is all purely hypothetical you understand...
Hypothetically, would just brushing pure DCM on the paint have the same effect of the old paint strippers where ir was the active ingredient? Or would I hypothetically need to mix it with something else as a carrier (whatever the white gloopy mixture that makes up a stripper contains?)
I'm unsure about the exact chemical process by which DCM so effectively breaks down paint, can anyone fill me in?
Could I theoretically pour a measure of DCM into a bottle of new DCM-free stripper, or would it react badly with other compounds in the new formulation? Could anyone provide a rough list of what other chemicals are usually in a paint stripper as I would be most interested in researching them and how they interact.
Thanks!
Title says methyl chloride (aka chloromethane), but you're talking about dichloromethane (aka methylene chloride); they're not the same thing. You're somewhat unlikely to buy the wrong one though as chloromethane is a gas and not much sold (due to being toxic).
Also note that DCM itself is toxic via inhalation, so be careful with it if you do buy the pure stuff.
Not sure on the exact contents of paint stripper (will vary by manufacturer I suspect). DCM will strip paint on it's own, but works better mixed with other ingredients. The gloopy white stuff will be a mix of thickeners so it's easier to make it stick to vertical surfaces and various other compounds to increase stability of the compound and prevent it corroding the container (assuming a metal container).
I wouldn't recommend just chucking DCM into another paint stripper, without knowing what's in there. While it would probably be fine (the active ingredient will be a similar sort of solvent), you might trigger a reaction and reacting chlorine compounds is a good way to accidentally poison yourself.
Also note that DCM itself is toxic via inhalation, so be careful with it if you do buy the pure stuff.
Not sure on the exact contents of paint stripper (will vary by manufacturer I suspect). DCM will strip paint on it's own, but works better mixed with other ingredients. The gloopy white stuff will be a mix of thickeners so it's easier to make it stick to vertical surfaces and various other compounds to increase stability of the compound and prevent it corroding the container (assuming a metal container).
I wouldn't recommend just chucking DCM into another paint stripper, without knowing what's in there. While it would probably be fine (the active ingredient will be a similar sort of solvent), you might trigger a reaction and reacting chlorine compounds is a good way to accidentally poison yourself.
Thanks for the info Flibble. I did indeed mean DCM not the gaseous one, that was poor editing on my part.
Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
Edited by airbrakes on Saturday 3rd August 22:50
hidetheelephants said:
I think you're mental and will probably end up on the HSE's 'people who killed themselves in creative ways this year' list, but wallpaper paste or even flour and water would be a good place to start.
DCM isn't miscible with water (i.e. they're not mutually soluble) so anything water based will likely form a separate layer from the DCM. You might be able to mix flour in directly though.Flibble said:
hidetheelephants said:
I think you're mental and will probably end up on the HSE's 'people who killed themselves in creative ways this year' list, but wallpaper paste or even flour and water would be a good place to start.
DCM isn't miscible with water (i.e. they're not mutually soluble) so anything water based will likely form a separate layer from the DCM. You might be able to mix flour in directly though.
When I was younger and dumber I stripped a window using pure DCM that I liberated from my chemistry lab. It paints directly on and the paint strips off just fine, even though it's really volatile there is no need to make it into a gel to get it to hang around long enough. Just do it somewhere well ventilated. I did it in an enclosed space and you get a cracking headache after a while. Wouldn't do it now though for the aforementioned health reasons. ..
Thanks guys, I think that hypothetically with the correct safety precautions it should work well if I hypothetically use it to strip paint.
Does DCM go off at all (ie like ethanol or brake fluid react with air moisture once opened). If yes, I would hypothetically buy a small bottle. If no, I would hypothetically buy a bigger, better value bottle
Does DCM go off at all (ie like ethanol or brake fluid react with air moisture once opened). If yes, I would hypothetically buy a small bottle. If no, I would hypothetically buy a bigger, better value bottle
If it helps, I think you can still get a decent paint stripper from star chem
http://www.starchem.co.uk/products/chemical.htm
I ordered some through e bay not so long ago.
its the old di-methylwotsit formulation so it works.
http://www.starchem.co.uk/products/chemical.htm
I ordered some through e bay not so long ago.
its the old di-methylwotsit formulation so it works.
http://www.restexpress.co.uk/acatalog/Paramose_Adh...
"Not" a paint stripper but will remove coatings from any surface it comes into contact with such as varnish or paint.
I didnt know that Nitromors had been EUthenised.
"Not" a paint stripper but will remove coatings from any surface it comes into contact with such as varnish or paint.
I didnt know that Nitromors had been EUthenised.
airbrakes said:
Thanks for the info Flibble. I did indeed mean DCM not the gaseous one, that was poor editing on my part.
Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
The gloop that you are looking for is methyl cellulose which is what the old style paint strippers used as a thickening agent. Of total irrelevance but passing interest is that it is one of the few substances more soluble in cold water than hot.Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
Edited by airbrakes on Saturday 3rd August 22:50
Something like this suitably diluted should work.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/METHYL-CELLULOSE-ADHESIV...
Tanguero said:
airbrakes said:
Thanks for the info Flibble. I did indeed mean DCM not the gaseous one, that was poor editing on my part.
Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
The gloop that you are looking for is methyl cellulose which is what the old style paint strippers used as a thickening agent. Of total irrelevance but passing interest is that it is one of the few substances more soluble in cold water than hot.Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
Edited by airbrakes on Saturday 3rd August 22:50
Something like this suitably diluted should work.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/METHYL-CELLULOSE-ADHESIV...
airbrakes said:
Tanguero said:
airbrakes said:
Thanks for the info Flibble. I did indeed mean DCM not the gaseous one, that was poor editing on my part.
Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
The gloop that you are looking for is methyl cellulose which is what the old style paint strippers used as a thickening agent. Of total irrelevance but passing interest is that it is one of the few substances more soluble in cold water than hot.Hypothetically, I think I would avoid mixing it with another stripper based on your warning of a possible adverse reaction. Is there anything inert I could theoretically mix it with to thicken it up and make it cling? Some sort of gelatin, or flour-like powder? I know styrofoam dissolves in Petrol to make a thick gloopy clingy substance (essentially Napalm), would it hypothetically do the same with DCM?
As for safety concerns, I realise that its toxic vapour was why it was banned in the first place.... however I'm not the sort of dimwit who would try and use it to do something like strip the inside of a metal tank I've crawled into (as I believe one American chap did who died from it)!
Edited by airbrakes on Saturday 3rd August 22:50
Something like this suitably diluted should work.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/METHYL-CELLULOSE-ADHESIV...
My reference to being more soluble in cold than hot was more from the point of trying to clean your brushes afterwards...
Tanguero said:
If I remember rightly (and its a few decades ago that I used to do forensic analysis on these things), there wasn't any water in Nitromors. The methyl cellulose is partially soluble in methylene chloride, so try diluting it with that. methylene chloride isn't miscible with water, so dissolving the cellulose in water first won't help.
My reference to being more soluble in cold than hot was more from the point of trying to clean your brushes afterwards...
Thanks. Being in glue form, it seems very expensive for such a small quantity! There must be somewhere to buy an industrial quantity of it?My reference to being more soluble in cold than hot was more from the point of trying to clean your brushes afterwards...
airbrakes said:
Thanks. Being in glue form, it seems very expensive for such a small quantity! There must be somewhere to buy an industrial quantity of it?
Wallpaper paste? This one apparently is pure methylcellulose.http://www.auro.co.uk/auro-tools-and-preparation/a...
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