An Impreza by any other name...
Discussion
Seeing an A45 AMG the other day made me think. It's essentially a socially-acceptable Impreza; if you didn't know better it could have been built by Subaru.
The thread below bemoaning Subaru's increasingly anodyne offerings in the UK seems to me to tap into a bigger picture regarding an overall lack of vision and a safe but ultimately self-defeating market strategy. Their cars are seen as bland, noisy, thirsty and (these days) under-powered.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
What's going wrong? Automotive sales are highly influenced by the presence of halo models in the range, and I think Subaru has been missing out on a prime opportunity to assert itself. The general narrative regarding the Impreza's decline seems to be that the old rally-derived cars were inevitably doomed in today's world of economic and environmental pressures. But these cars tell a different story:
http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/a45-amg
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-pistonhead...
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/audi...
There's clearly a market for brash, exciting, over-powered yet practical cars with spoilers!
Subaru with their ground-up approach to engineering could - with the right vision - excel in this market again. I think with sorted cabin quality and big power, Subaru could reclaim their place. For me I'd like to see an Impreza with:
- Peter Stevens design
- 450+bhp as standard (higher power special editions)
- iconic burbly exhaust note
- switchable exhaust valves
- high-quality interior
- sorted NVH
- and maybe some stripped, track-focused special editions too
Thoughts?
The thread below bemoaning Subaru's increasingly anodyne offerings in the UK seems to me to tap into a bigger picture regarding an overall lack of vision and a safe but ultimately self-defeating market strategy. Their cars are seen as bland, noisy, thirsty and (these days) under-powered.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
What's going wrong? Automotive sales are highly influenced by the presence of halo models in the range, and I think Subaru has been missing out on a prime opportunity to assert itself. The general narrative regarding the Impreza's decline seems to be that the old rally-derived cars were inevitably doomed in today's world of economic and environmental pressures. But these cars tell a different story:
http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/a45-amg
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/general-pistonhead...
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/audi...
There's clearly a market for brash, exciting, over-powered yet practical cars with spoilers!
Subaru with their ground-up approach to engineering could - with the right vision - excel in this market again. I think with sorted cabin quality and big power, Subaru could reclaim their place. For me I'd like to see an Impreza with:
- Peter Stevens design
- 450+bhp as standard (higher power special editions)
- iconic burbly exhaust note
- switchable exhaust valves
- high-quality interior
- sorted NVH
- and maybe some stripped, track-focused special editions too
Thoughts?
Mercedes have made a nice car but a lot of money , i don't think Subaru have kept up with the times , added to there piston issues , the package is there but needs refining I think if they put there minds to it I think they could do a great car , but I feel there focus on who they are selling too , I don't think there priorities are the faster cars so much , the cosworth Subaru seems like a very sorted car but again price goes up a lot
vxr2010 said:
Mercedes have made a nice car but a lot of money , i don't think Subaru have kept up with the times , added to there piston issues , the package is there but needs refining I think if they put there minds to it I think they could do a great car , but I feel there focus on who they are selling too , I don't think there priorities are the faster cars so much , the cosworth Subaru seems like a very sorted car but again price goes up a lot
Agree with all your points. To mehe Subaru name is legendary; everyone knows the Impreza was a class-leading rally car, and none of the others have that particular kudos (I'm not counting Audi, as it's been too long since they were making rally weapons). What I'm saying is, with the issues of NVH, cabin quality and power definitively sorted, Subaru would be in a position to challenge for that market currently catered for by cars like the AMG, the Golf R, etc. Their cars would need to be comparable in price for sure, but the customer would be getting a lot more both in terms of power to weight, and in the elusive 'smiles per mile'. Getting into what is after all a tarted up A class or Golf is ultimately a non-event. These cars are not fundamentally special. But Subarus with their quirky but sorted engineering and distinctive sound, are always an event. Make that event slightly more civilised, with the power to beat something twice the price both on twisty tracks and straight-aways, yes I'd say Subaru would have a winner. They'd have my money for sure.
I think the cosworth is probably Subarus answer but it was only a limited run and expensive , if they improved the engine reliability upped the power , awful words but a dsg style box plus lower gearing and more gears , interiors are ok but compared to some audis lack style , I don't mind the look of the hatchback 08 cars but they don't look as nice as the older or newer ones , then Subaru are on to a winner , if they could do that for around 32,000 £ then they are producing a good car , but as I said before I think they have lost there imagination the last attempt was the brz ? Looks nice not much power and they can only sell 1 per toyotas 10 or 20 or some thing like that , I know fast Subarus are a bit nichie but there's definitely a market there , produce a good car it would appeal to even more , I personally think the merc the Amg 45 , it's going to be unreliable it's a lot of power out of a 2 litre it's very quick to 60 , so a lot of strain on engine and transmission , but for its performance top marks , cost too much though
Again, the saga of the BRZ / GT86 shows a lack of vision. Subaru engineered a car which is by all accounts brilliant, but they failed to capitalise on a brilliant opportunity. The reasons here are much more murky than with their unique Subaru-only models, but both Toyota and Subaru dropped the ball. A pair of high-powered halo models, one from each camp really would have got the ball rolling in terms of sales.
I've wondered recently whether the perceived decline of Subaru in the UK is because the company is just not focussed on the highly regulated European market. I had a holiday in Chile at the end of last month and was amazed by the number of Subarus on the road. It wasn't just old cars either.
Subaru was clearly not a "niche" brand in Santiago, but competing with much larger names.
Subaru was clearly not a "niche" brand in Santiago, but competing with much larger names.
I put the decline of the marque fairly and squarely at the hands of the truly incompetent International Motors.
They've spent the last 10-15 years pissing away the heritage and following that Subaru had from McRae, Burns and Solberg's efforts, along with the Forester being the farmer's favourite etc.
They've spent the last 10-15 years pissing away the heritage and following that Subaru had from McRae, Burns and Solberg's efforts, along with the Forester being the farmer's favourite etc.
I think another part of the problem is that its the brand image that joe-public sees.
In Merc they see class and wealth whereas in Subaru they either see boy racers or big school runs SUV's
Subaru has gone the way of most other japanese manufacturers, sinking in to the back of people's minds as making boring cars that neither look good nor have a good badge on them (as thats all that people seem to care about these days) with a few cheap old cars that boy racers like to buy and stick loud exhausts on.
In Merc they see class and wealth whereas in Subaru they either see boy racers or big school runs SUV's
Subaru has gone the way of most other japanese manufacturers, sinking in to the back of people's minds as making boring cars that neither look good nor have a good badge on them (as thats all that people seem to care about these days) with a few cheap old cars that boy racers like to buy and stick loud exhausts on.
What's depressing is the general consensus on the issue. There are quite a few factors at play as Yellowstreak and Drumster say, but what it boils down to for us as car nuts is that Subaru or their marketing team have wilfully wasted their heritage and undeniable expertise. The modern WRX STi is a great car, but with the piston issues mentioned power upgrades are a source of concern for many,. This rules it out as a sensible car to buy for tuning, while the image and NVH are just too out there for the golf club set. I firmly believe that if they made something with big power and visible quality, it would sell in big numbers here. Maybe as Yellow said, they just don't care about Europe??
What's so frustrating is that, while they make cars that are trying their damnedest to be boring, the engineering behind them is quirky, iconoclastic and brilliant. This is the polar opposite of say Audi, who made a couple of legendary rally cars ages ago, capitalised sensibly on the kudos, and now make fundamentally boring cars that are somehow highly sought after. I just don't get it...
What's so frustrating is that, while they make cars that are trying their damnedest to be boring, the engineering behind them is quirky, iconoclastic and brilliant. This is the polar opposite of say Audi, who made a couple of legendary rally cars ages ago, capitalised sensibly on the kudos, and now make fundamentally boring cars that are somehow highly sought after. I just don't get it...
I think one of the problems with Subarus are that they do not make sense on paper, but when you drive them, you start to see the appeal. I have a lowly 2.0 litre NA Forester which is neither fast nor economical. It has a lovely mechanical feel to it, has a beautifully balanced chassis and rides really well too. These features are all the more apparent when driving a more modern car such as my wife's Mark 7 Golf 2.0 TDI, with it's synthetic steering, numb gearchange and soul-less character. By extrapolation, I can imagine that driving a WRX would be an event every time you get behind the wheel, however an A45 or Golf R would make the neighbours a bit more envious. As a car fanatic, I buy a car for me to enjoy, not for the image I want to project.
74merc said:
I think one of the problems with Subarus are that they do not make sense on paper, but when you drive them, you start to see the appeal. I have a lowly 2.0 litre NA Forester which is neither fast nor economical. It has a lovely mechanical feel to it, has a beautifully balanced chassis and rides really well too.
This is my experience of Scoobs in general too. They're just fundamentally sorted cars. But it's as if the brand aren't keen to promote just how much better they are... And power is the acid test. Give a generic car like a VAG product some big horsepower, it's still pretty 'meh' to drive. Put big power in a Subaru, and it's like it was born to it, dynamically speaking. I once drove a mapped Forester STi and it was absolutely hilarious, forget the Range Rover SVR, this thing could really handle (not in my hands mind you!). 3.0 Legacy owners all talk of that car's amazing dynamics too. 74merc said:
I buy a car for me to enjoy, not for the image I want to project.
Yup - same here 
But great cars can only happen with good sales; sales can only reflect the market; and in Europe at least they're only going to be marketable with some 'proper' machinery at the top of the range. They could regard building an uber-STi as an investment!Its fair to say I'm truly passionate about the marque and always will be. What I find most incredible and disappointing is the complete swing from cars that were utterly reliable to what we see today - poor engineering, recalls and story after story of engine failure.
For me the rot truly set in with the CS400. That was a massive disappointment that failed to live up to the hype. It should have been 500bhp, fitted with decent seats, lairy styling and a 3 year warranty. That would have got some notice instead of the meh product it ended up being.
The JDM cars are still good and I find it hard to believe that the 2litre can't meet euro emissions targets. Start making cars with lots of power and a bit of an edge to them.
I saw an AMG45 a few months ago; looked amazing in white with big spoilers, DCT and I thought THAT's what Subaru should be making,not bloody Mercedes.
I think with US sales plus those of the Far East there is no enthusiasm to give british buyers the cars that Subaru used to make; a crying shame really....
For me the rot truly set in with the CS400. That was a massive disappointment that failed to live up to the hype. It should have been 500bhp, fitted with decent seats, lairy styling and a 3 year warranty. That would have got some notice instead of the meh product it ended up being.
The JDM cars are still good and I find it hard to believe that the 2litre can't meet euro emissions targets. Start making cars with lots of power and a bit of an edge to them.
I saw an AMG45 a few months ago; looked amazing in white with big spoilers, DCT and I thought THAT's what Subaru should be making,not bloody Mercedes.
I think with US sales plus those of the Far East there is no enthusiasm to give british buyers the cars that Subaru used to make; a crying shame really....
The Germans have got it (mostly) right and have pretty much cleaned up.
Even committed Subaru fans can see that 2.5 engine has such a widespread reputation for failures and issues .. surely that's keeping most people away from the new ones now ?
They've been off the boil for so long that not many even consider them any more. How many Golf R buyers considered a WRX STi ? Sad to say it .. but today the Golf is just the better option.
Back in the day when Scoobs were at their peak I couldn't believe how Subaru / I.M did pretty much nothing to promote the brand outside of the rallying. No advertising, no product placement. Can you just imagine what other brands would have done with the success that Subaru once had ?
Even committed Subaru fans can see that 2.5 engine has such a widespread reputation for failures and issues .. surely that's keeping most people away from the new ones now ?
They've been off the boil for so long that not many even consider them any more. How many Golf R buyers considered a WRX STi ? Sad to say it .. but today the Golf is just the better option.
Back in the day when Scoobs were at their peak I couldn't believe how Subaru / I.M did pretty much nothing to promote the brand outside of the rallying. No advertising, no product placement. Can you just imagine what other brands would have done with the success that Subaru once had ?
As well as the Impreza being off the boil, I think Subaru have also missed the mark with its bigger cars. The Gen 4 Liberty is still a sought-after car with the 2.0T and 2.5T. The Gen 5 never really hit the spot, but Subaru still produced it in both sedan and wagon form with auto or manual box. The Gen 6 is auto only, no wagon, and the sporty version comes with the 3.6 flat six. Nice enough, but no ball of punchy turbocharged fire!
Now, though, you can't get a performance Subaru wagon - not a decent size one anyway. The Levorg is a bit smaller than the Gen4 Lib wagon, from what I've seen. And that means it'll lose others that have earlier models and want something to progress to. Having said that, at least Aus is getting the 300bhp version, even if it is only coming with that feckin CVT box.
Now, though, you can't get a performance Subaru wagon - not a decent size one anyway. The Levorg is a bit smaller than the Gen4 Lib wagon, from what I've seen. And that means it'll lose others that have earlier models and want something to progress to. Having said that, at least Aus is getting the 300bhp version, even if it is only coming with that feckin CVT box.
GravelBen said:
MuscleSaloon said:
Sad to say it .. but today the Golf is just the better option.
Better at what? Having a nice interior perhaps, but driving? Not from the back-to-back tests I've seen.I've come pretty darn close to pulling the trigger on a new WRX STi a few times over the last couple of years but just can't bring myself do it. The salesman get really twitchy when you start talking about 2.5 reliability and warranties, £500 a year road tax is not necessary on a 300 bhp four cylinder motor these days. And then while you're still undecided you go on youtube and see Golf R's and A45's spanking WRX STi's.
In the UK at least they've lost it.
MuscleSaloon said:
I'm no VW fanboy .. but I've not seen a bad review on the Golf R. The chassis is widely acknowledged as amongst the finest, road tax a mere £180 a year, reliable...
I haven't seen a bad review of either car, but I have seen several tests between it and the STI where the conclusion was that the Golf is similar or slightly faster in a straight line while the STI is faster around corners and much more fun and involving.I can't comment on your road tax differences as they don't exist here in NZ (incidentally, the Golf is also 17% more expensive here), but real-world fuel economy reports are similar for both cars. As for reliable, Subaru have a much better reputation than VW in that regard!
It seems like you're focussing mainly on the good points of the VW and the bad points of STI, when you can just as easily switch those around. I think it largely comes down to whats a higher priority for you - a nicer interior or a more entertaining drive?
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