The Grassroots and Elite Football Divide.

The Grassroots and Elite Football Divide.

Author
Discussion

Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
My son was recently selected to play for his schools district team. I'm so pleased he was even considered, and great to see his confidence boosted after he was chosen out of a very tough trial.

The [district] fixtures will soon be on the calendar but in the meantime, the coach arranged a friendly with an academy team from a PL club. Amazing. The game was played yesterday and the boys weren't too shabby against their much stronger opponents despite having never played together previously. They lost 4-1.

I also manage my son's team and it's great to be involved in the development of the team, as well as 17 individuals; they all have different personalities. The experience with an 'elite' team, and as good as it was for the lads on the pitch, it did highlight a few things for me.

Firstly, the hosting PL club academy. Whilst I understand they don't like parents or spectators, it rained for the whole day, non stop. Despite having very impressive hosting facilities, they kicked us - parents - out onto the street. We explained that we had all traveled via public transport and couldn't just 'wait in the car' as they suggested, and given that we were miles away from anywhere where we could hang around for a couple of hours it was a bit cold of them to just shrug us off like that. There was an empty lounge area behind the guy shrugging his shoulders yet he stuck to his guns and asked us to leave (it was heavy rain at that moment and didn't stop for several hours). When we returned (dripping, and soaked to the bone) we saw that some academy player parents were inside the building. "Thank you for your hospitality, Premier League Club Academy," but we should all be hopeful our sons might be scouted by the many eyes around the pitch. As it happened, one was.

Back to grassroots matters. The District team coach is a young guy on his own. He did everything on his own. I could see he was struggling with a few matters (probably because I coach and manage too). He said the team would only be playing matches, no training. If all parents wanted the boys to train, we would all have to share the cost of a pitch to do so. This brings me to my son's Sunday League club. It is a well-respected and well-run club with a good infrastructure. However, despite this, the club still is homeless, just like many other grassroots clubs. We hire pitches from schools and other clubs (all the better/good ones are taken by the academies or the clubs one rung away from being academies and we simply cannot outbid them). Our training is at a good facility provided by the club; any extra training is organised by the individual team managers at their own cost (or simply find an open space somewhere).

The [Sunday] league we play in will fine us for anything they can. No captain's armband? Wallop, £20 fine. Non fulfillment of fixture is a 50-quid penalty; not reporting the result by the 5pm deadline is a fine; if you play later in the day against a team with religious dispensation and can't get internet to send the email in the 20 minutes left before the deadline, tough titty: £20 fine (even to dispute the penalty carries a £25.00 charge).

I get the whole tier system (I played rugby at a high level years ago before the sport turned professional) and even with six divisions in my son's age group, they're all very competitive (the top division has another league where the top three go to). And whilst many parents and coaches (volunteer, parent coaches I should add) are under no illusions, there clearly is a drive where the better players can, and do take the step up towards elite football.

Yesterday was a real contrast. Whilst the experience (for me, just seeing the excellent facilities and perfect pitches) was good, and my son got to play with his mates against some very good footballers, it showed just how chalk and cheese the grassroots and elite football is. I get it, one is professional and the other is a charity, but there is such a gulf and no connection between the two. An academy will snap up any budding talent from the Sunday Leagues, but won't offer the parents who travel from one end of London to the other as much as a cup of tea.

Meanwhile, I'm preparing for yet another late kickoff (prep was actually done in training, but it's more about the admin and ensuring we don't do anything to incur a fine).

Yesterday I felt we were treated like trash. 'Go away'. 'Please leave, we are only interested in your sons and be grateful if one of them gets picked'. We were told it was a friendly match but it turns out it benefits the Academy as the place was full of scouts. I had a chat with a guy whose son was playing for an academy in Hertfordshire and I was amazed at what the 'fees' were for players to be released from their contracts should there be an interested party. Eye-opening and eye-watering. For the lad that was scouted yesterday, he's been at his Sunday league club since he was seven. I wonder if the PL club will be extending anything their way...

Meanwhile, we wonder why England aren't winning World Cups on a regular basis.

Happy Sunday everyone!


Wacky Racer

38,972 posts

254 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
Very interesting post.

Would be interesting to know which club you are talking about, but better all round if you do not say. smile

The only time many top clubs are interested in parents tends to be when they want to sign their child.

Obviously some clubs treat parents very well, to be fair.

ben5575

6,634 posts

228 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
Chimes with my experiences as well. The way players and parents are treated by clubs is appalling and I agree with your sentiments about why we struggle with football in this country.

I would say that from afar (as in friends who have daughters that play for PL teams), that girls football is treated very differently.

I guess that with so many boys wanting to make it, the clubs can afford to treat people like st. Perhaps it's part fo their filtering system in that progressive 1970's PE teacher kind of a way! There are far fewer girls playing so the clubs have to behave in a very different manner to attract them to their club.

What age do you coach btw?

Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
ben5575 said:
What age do you coach btw?
This season the team is Under 13 (year 8 lads). Have been managing and coaching the team for four seasons now.

SaintsPaul

687 posts

174 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
A friend of mine’s grandson was at the Saints academy for under 8’s . Was highly thought of by the coaches. He was brave in the tackle, read the game well and chipped in with a few goals too. At the end of that season when it came to being chosen to join the academy proper he was one of the lads that was let go. Poor lad was gutted. His grandad asked the reasoning behind the decision and was told he didn’t have the Bale factor!! Basically the club is looking for the next big money spinner rather than players who may be very good professionals.
I know at that young age anything can happen but do all academies think that way?
As a footnote to this, every coach who sees him play cannot believe the club let him go. Perhaps he will get his chance when he is a bit older.

Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
We were given a medical consent form by the hosting PL club; usual questions however there was quite a lot of attention to MY height and build, and my WIFE'S height. It also asked if i had any brothers and what their physical dimensions were.


Drive Blind

5,250 posts

184 months

Sunday 3rd October 2021
quotequote all
Glassman said:
The [Sunday] league we play in will fine us for anything they can. No captain's armband? Wallop, £20 fine. Non fulfillment of fixture is a 50-quid penalty; not reporting the result by the 5pm deadline is a fine; if you play later in the day against a team with religious dispensation and can't get internet to send the email in the 20 minutes left before the deadline, tough titty: £20 fine (even to dispute the penalty carries a £25.00 charge).
My dad was involved in football at amateur level and this is what made him walk away.
This was 30 years ago so an appeal required a day off work, to travel to Glasgow to the SAFA/SFA HQ, to get your appeal dismissed and then charged another fee for having the cheek to appeal the first fine.


Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
We played our match yesterday and gave the opposition a bit of a thumping. Ho hum.

Oppo linesman (a parent) must have had a condition which forced him to randomly stick his arm up. The flag went up for everything. He argued back. Then flagged one of our players and TOLD the referee it should be a yellow card. The referee felt pressured and spoke to the player and at this point the oppo managers started voicing their opinion on how it SHOULD be a card.

Card shown.

£12 fine to the league.

You cannot dispute a yellow.


p4cks

7,013 posts

206 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
It extends to the lower leagues, too. My local team, South Shields, has an academy with players from all over the country. They train 5 days a week and they squeeze in some college course between the training.

I had two lads living with me (from Glasgow and Scarborough respectively) before COVID hit and their accomodation was all paid for by the club. The club have recently gone full time, extended their stadium and next season hope to be playing in the National League North

Ntv

5,177 posts

130 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
SaintsPaul said:
A friend of mine’s grandson was at the Saints academy for under 8’s . Was highly thought of by the coaches. He was brave in the tackle, read the game well and chipped in with a few goals too. At the end of that season when it came to being chosen to join the academy proper he was one of the lads that was let go. Poor lad was gutted. His grandad asked the reasoning behind the decision and was told he didn’t have the Bale factor!! Basically the club is looking for the next big money spinner rather than players who may be very good professionals.
I know at that young age anything can happen but do all academies think that way?
As a footnote to this, every coach who sees him play cannot believe the club let him go. Perhaps he will get his chance when he is a bit older.
I don't have data on this assertion, but my perception is most players who "make it" professionally, at whatever level, have had one or many rejections at a younger age. Keep trying!

Blib

45,435 posts

204 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
Ntv said:
I don't have data on this assertion, but my perception is most players who "make it" professionally, at whatever level, have had one or many rejections at a younger age. Keep trying!
Ian Wright and Stuart Pearce spring to mind. They were in their early 20s before breaking through and they did alright.

Thanks for the thought provoking post, Glassman. Back in the sixties/seventies my father ran and managed several teams for our local youth club. It was far simpler then. But, he also had run-ins with the blokes who ran the (very inconsequential) league.

Power corrupts.

Timbo_S2

571 posts

270 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
Glassman said:
We were given a medical consent form by the hosting PL club; usual questions however there was quite a lot of attention to MY height and build, and my WIFE'S height. It also asked if i had any brothers and what their physical dimensions were.

My middle boy's been playing for our PL club since U6. From the outset, they noted the physical attributes for me and my wife too...

Challo

10,823 posts

162 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
Ntv said:
SaintsPaul said:
A friend of mine’s grandson was at the Saints academy for under 8’s . Was highly thought of by the coaches. He was brave in the tackle, read the game well and chipped in with a few goals too. At the end of that season when it came to being chosen to join the academy proper he was one of the lads that was let go. Poor lad was gutted. His grandad asked the reasoning behind the decision and was told he didn’t have the Bale factor!! Basically the club is looking for the next big money spinner rather than players who may be very good professionals.
I know at that young age anything can happen but do all academies think that way?
As a footnote to this, every coach who sees him play cannot believe the club let him go. Perhaps he will get his chance when he is a bit older.
I don't have data on this assertion, but my perception is most players who "make it" professionally, at whatever level, have had one or many rejections at a younger age. Keep trying!
I would presume that at that level alot will be pot luck on the players they let go and who they keep. Kids will develop at different ages, in terms of physical build and also technical talents. You hear stories of that player being head and shoulders above the other kids, but you also hear stories of kids who didnt seem very good making it.

Also you have to think the people making these calls are human, and decisions can be made on what they see in a player, what does the club want to develop in terms of players. Like you say while one club says no another says yes.

As long as your kid is enjoying playing football then thats all that matters. Only a small percent will ever make it as a pro so dont get too hung up on it.

Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
Challo said:
As long as your kid is enjoying playing football then thats all that matters. Only a small percent will ever make it as a pro so dont get too hung up on it.
This is pretty much it. I'm happy my son plays a competitive team sport. I've always made sure he understands his options before deciding. A lot of it is keeping his feet on the ground.

He played as a winger for a couple of seasons; a very hard-working winger but by no means a 'fancy Dan'. He would be running up and down the right flank putting in crosses and getting back to defend. Really good work rate backed with a bit of pace. One day we found ourselves struggling in defence and he stepped in. He's now everyone's first choice as not only the main defender, but the first name in the team.

Last season he excelled and was noticed by a few managers at higher division teams. A couple tried to get their lads to speak to him and persuade him to join their team. He felt elated and clearly a massive confidence boost. We had a few long chats about outcomes and probabilities. His informed decision eventually, was to stay with his team and try harder; funnily enough, it attracted other players to join his team just so they could play with him. A couple joined which alerted players they knew, etc.

Now his team is very strong and everyone is saying it's the team to beat. I'm so happy for him, and he has pushed on to play for the district, and today he's playing for his school (his year is bursting with footballing talent). He's enjoying playing football and is making friends (earning respect) outside of his baby-group friends and school circle.

Happy dad.


peterperkins

3,208 posts

249 months

Monday 4th October 2021
quotequote all
Very interesting post OP.

GloverMart

12,265 posts

222 months

Tuesday 5th October 2021
quotequote all
Great OP, Glassman, fascinating to read although of course I wish you didn't have to post it.

I'm involved in football at most levels, men's and women's game. I work for Opta as an in-stadium analyst, occasionally write match reports for national newspapers and am secretary of a Step 6 non league club so in the past six months, I've watched games at Premier League, Championship, Leagues 1 & 2, the WSL, the Women's Championship, Premier League 2, the U18 Premier League and the murky depths of the grass roots game too.

As recently as Saturday, I covered an u18PL game where parents weren't allowed to watch. As at your game, it was bucketing down with rain (no cover at all!) and there was only myself + club analysts allowed to watch. Some academies still haven't been officially given the all clear to admit supporters, parents etc after COVID; these facilities have to be thoroughly checked over and of course the people doing the checks have a backlog to get around. Eventually, everyone will be checked and the restrictions will probably be loosened. The more people that come to watch = more people have to be there to make teas and coffees, sometimes it is just simpler to say "no entry" & sometimes they have no choice. Every academy I've gone to watch games at have differing levels of security/administration; ie one PL club academy won't let me in until 10 minutes before kickoff and I'm working for an official partner of the Premier League!!

Regards fining clubs, it does seem petty and during COVID, it seemed there might be a more relaxed attitude taken to the sort of thing you're on about but since the season restarted in July, it's reverted to type. I've seen three fines handed out for not using the league's electronic substitution board for example. The issue of reporting results late is a nightmare but surely some leeway has to be given to clubs playing that Sunday team that can't play in the mornings!

As to facilities, there's a massive hole in provision of them as you say. My Step 6 team can't find a 3G or 4G pitch to train on unless it's 10pm on a Friday night which is no good for a Saturday team playing at a decent level. Artificial pitches are going up all over the country but have slowed during lockdown of course and are fantastically expensive, even with Football Foundation grants. I feel sorry for the District coach as he seems to be struggling with the level of support that he would naturally get from a club, it's hard work doing stuff alone.

SaintsPaul - sorry to hear about your experience with your friend's grandson, it does happen elsewhere. A little sadder to hear it was at Staplewood as I hold that facility, and the people that work there, in high regard.

Challo - you are spot on. I was chatting to a parent of a u18 player at one of the biggest clubs in the land & he said that everyone is made very, very aware that only the very elite players will make it and that there should be a pathway for al the other 99.9% of kids that don't make it. After care, pastoral care, whatever you call it, is woefully under-resourced by many clubs in this country and it's a crying shame. But as you say, football is absolutely crammed full of players that were let go at a young age then went on to make it right to the very top.

Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Tuesday 5th October 2021
quotequote all
GloverMart said:
As to facilities, there's a massive hole in provision of them as you say. My Step 6 team can't find a 3G or 4G pitch to train on unless it's 10pm on a Friday night which is no good for a Saturday team playing at a decent level. Artificial pitches are going up all over the country but have slowed during lockdown of course and are fantastically expensive, even with Football Foundation grants. I feel sorry for the District coach as he seems to be struggling with the level of support that he would naturally get from a club, it's hard work doing stuff alone.
We played on Sunday in Hatfield. Four full sized pitches (astro) and one grass, not being used. The astro pitches even had the dividers to split them up for smaller format.

Whenever we get rained off (which is often) we struggle to find alternative (artificial) pitches to play on. It comes at a cost if we do secure one, but a) the kids want to play; b) we want to keep up the momentum of playing, and c) otherwise we end up with double headers or backlogs.





PurpleTurtle

7,579 posts

151 months

Tuesday 5th October 2021
quotequote all
Interesting post OP, am joining in for the ride.

My lad has just started at U7s. I'd describe him as enthusiastic but with a lot to learn. However there are some lads in his team who are frankly brilliant, a joy to watch them play and I'm sometimes speechless at how good they are for such a young age. One wonders how long it will take for them to be scouted, if indeed they are.

I have a mate who's two lads are exceptionally good and have thrown their all into playing football. Both have just been signed to the Academy of a league team in the North West. The dad is documenting their journey on his Instagram page - he himself is very handy, but never 'made it' so there is possibly an element of vicarious living - but it is going to be interesting to watch how they progress at elite level. Facilities all look very impressive.

Down at grassroots I'm impressed at the commitment of the parent coaches we have but already a little bit wary of the 'pushy' parents at football that I had been warned about. Some take it far, far too seriously, even at the youngest level. I read a match report from a parent the other day and thought it was something that Henry Winter had put together for The Times ... two full screens of a WhatsApp message for an U8s game!

Glassman

Original Poster:

23,106 posts

222 months

Tuesday 1st March 2022
quotequote all
I find myself coming back to this thread to adress the balance somewhat.

Since starting the thread, my son has played several games for the District. The manager of that team is a scout for a PL team. he put my son forward for a two week training session at West Ham under their Emerging Hammers scheme. The two weeks has now become on-going and now my boy is training with them once a week (with a view to playing games).

He's loving it and I am so pleased for him. He's training with some very good players and coached by coaches from a Premier League football club. Whatever happens, whether he is offered a trial or not, he is gaining tremendous experience which is improving him as a player.

My job is to keep his feet planted hehe

West Ham Emerging Hammers clap




Ntv

5,177 posts

130 months

Tuesday 1st March 2022
quotequote all
Glassman said:
I find myself coming back to this thread to adress the balance somewhat.

Since starting the thread, my son has played several games for the District. The manager of that team is a scout for a PL team. he put my son forward for a two week training session at West Ham under their Emerging Hammers scheme. The two weeks has now become on-going and now my boy is training with them once a week (with a view to playing games).

He's loving it and I am so pleased for him. He's training with some very good players and coached by coaches from a Premier League football club. Whatever happens, whether he is offered a trial or not, he is gaining tremendous experience which is improving him as a player.

My job is to keep his feet planted hehe

West Ham Emerging Hammers clap



Great to hear it Glassman. Good luck to your boy

Tell me, what did they look for / see in him?