Glasgow Rangers- same club it's always been!!
Discussion
There is some confusion in certain quarters as to whether or not Rangers is the same club it's always been or is, in fact or law, a different club because it has new owners.
This might help:
The football assets being sold to another company allows the club to continue playing as is at Ibrox. The statement can be found in the UK Tax Gov archives here:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130502...
2) celtic fans complained to the Advertising Standards Agency about how the club was advertising. The advert claimed that Rangers were the “most successful club” and this was the point of the complaint.
The ASA ruled on this both in an initial finding and on appeal and wrote the following:
“Whilst the ASA acknowledged that Newco had not taken on all of the debts and liabilities of Oldco when it purchased its assets and that that would normally preclude a business from trading on the reputation of a liquidated predecessor company, we noted, having read its report in full, that both an Independent Commission appointed by the SPL and the ECA had reached the conclusion that the football club RFC was a recognisable entity in its own right, and that it had continued in existence despite being transferred to another owner and operator. We consulted with UEFA, which explained that its rules allowed for the recognition of the “sporting continuity” of a club’s match record, even if that club’s corporate structure had changed. We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football “club” varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner. The SFA further pointed out that, following RFC’s transfer to a new corporate owner, Newco did not take a new membership of the Scottish FA but rather that the previous membership was transferred across to them so they could continue as the same member of the Scottish FA. We considered that consumers would understand that the claim in question related to the football club rather than to its owner and operator and we therefore concluded that it was not misleading for the ad to make reference to RFC's history, which was separate to that of Newco.”
“given RFC's history, the claim "Scotland's most successful club" was valid and would not mislead.”
This can be found here:
https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-Rangers-footbal...
It is very clear from the above the ASA in the UK determined through thorough investigation that Rangers FC were still the same club.
3) Moving on to Right Honorable Lord Nimmo Smith who during an investigation into Rangers FC use of tax schemes. The issue put to the Law Lord was this:
“Paragraphs 2 and 6 of the list of preliminary issues advance essentially the same argument, which is that on 14 June 2012, when the business and assets of Oldco were purchased and transferred to Newco, Rangers FC ceased to be a Club as defined in the Rules, and is accordingly not subject to the jurisdiction of the SPL, and thus of this Commission, in relation to any breach or breaches of the Rules committed in the period prior to that date. “
His response, in findings, concluded this:
“While it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club, it would at the least comprise its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground, even though these may change from time to time. In common speech a Club is treated as a recognisable entity which is capable of being owned and operated, and which continues in existence despite its transfer to another owner and operator.”
“While there can be no question of subjecting the new owner and operator to sanctions, there are sanctions which could be imposed in terms of the Rules which are capable of affecting the Club as a continuing entity (even though not an entity with legal personality), and which thus might affect the interest of the new owner and operator in it.”
Lord Nimmo Smith is a top Law Lord with 40 years experience and this was his summary on the topic in a legal enquiry for the SPL who were the owners of the Football League Rangers played in at the time. He clearly states the club is a continuing entity in his legal and unchallenged findings.
This can be found here:
https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/commission-reasons... Commission reasons for decision of 12 September 2012.pdf
4) Next up in the quest of understanding if the club is the same or not was the Chief Executive of the Scottish Professional Football League. Essentially this is the guy at the very top of the tree in The football League organisation and he said the following:
“In terms of the question about old club, new club, that was settled very much by the Lord
Nimmo Smith commission that was put together by the SPL to look at EBT payments at that time. The decision, very clearly from the commission, was that the club is the same, the club continues, albeit it is owned by a new company, but the club is the same.”
“The member club is the entity that participates in our league and we have 42 member clubs. Those clubs may be owned by a company, sometimes it’s a Private Limited Company, sometimes it’s a PLC, but ultimately, the company is a legal entity in its own right, which owns a member club that participates in the league. It’s the same club.”
You can read his statement in the local press here:
http://www.BOYCOTT THIS LINK/sport/football/football-news/Rangers-same-club-existed-before-4904432
5) In another court case, the "Top" Lawyer "representing" Scottish Football who has represented SPFL, the SFL and indeed celtic Football Club, who are Rangers oldest rivals, under oath, as he was a witness made the following comment:
"It was agreed that Rangers FC, NOW OWNED by Sevco Scotland, would play in the 1st division, but this didn't work out. The Club, with a capital C, had been sold to Sevco Scotland ltd."
Rod McKenzie was the solicitor for the League bodies in Scotland and the guy closest to most of this and he confirmed in a court of law that the club was legally sold on and therefore continued.
6) The top footballing body in Europe is UEFA whom im sure you are aware of. Their stance on the issue is very clear and can be found by clicking here on their website.
http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=501...
This is the profile for Rangers Football Club with all their recent scores showing however the main point is on the right of the picture where it lists their Club record in UEFA competitions going back before 2012
Won the European Cup Winners Cup in 1972 (40 years prior to when Mr Clark claims they were born)
Biggest win:
28/09/1983, Rangers 10-0 Valletta, Glasgow
• Biggest defeat:
09/10/1963, Real Madrid 6-0 Rangers, Madrid
• Appearances in UEFA Champions League: 30
• Appearances in UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 10
• Appearances in UEFA Europa League: 17
• Player with most UEFA appearances: 82
Barry Ferguson ( SCO)
• Top scorers in UEFA club competitions: 21
Ally McCoist ( SCO)
7) In yet another recent court case which went all the way to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the UK, Lord Hodge also confirmed the continuing club by making the following statement
“RFC 2012 plc which is now the name of the FORMER owners of Rangers Football Club”
This statement has not made many headlines as it appears innocuous however what Lord Hodge clearly distinguishes here is that Rangers Football Club has been sold onto new owners and that the company RFC 2012 plc (in liquidation) are the ones on the hook for whatever he is describing as opposed to the new owners of Rangers Football Club which are Rangers International Football Club plc
8) moving onto the European Club Association (ECA) who are the sole, independent body directly representing football clubs at European level. It replaces the G-14 Group and the European Club Forum, both dissolved at the beginning of 2008. ECA are fully recognised by UEFA and FIFA.
Again, having been contacted by rival fans for comments the ECA were forced to release the following statement on Rangers Football Club:
"With regards to associated membership, the membership policy states amongst others that founding members are granted automatic membership. Taking into account that the 'new entity' also acquired the goodwill of the 'old entity', it was held by the ECA executive board that the goodwill, taking into account legal and practical arguments, also included the history of the 'old company'. Consequently it was concluded that Rangers FC was entitled to associated membership of ECA as considered to be a founding member."
You can read the report on this from Scottish Television here:
https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/Rangers/205975...
NEW* 9. The SPFL audited accounts have just been released and can be found here:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC17536...
A note in the accounts stated "Aberdeen FC, who finished 2nd in the Ladbrokes Premiership and qualified for UEFA Europa League Qualifying Rounds where they were joined by Rangers FC who finished 3rd in their first season BACK in the top flight"
NEW** 10. The best of them all though has just been released as the new 10 year rankings for UEFA have been posted on their website.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefaranking...
In these rankings you can see our points from 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2011/12 are included in our total club ranking points. The same also applies to Derry City who found themselves in the exact same position as us. They too have maintained all their points pre administration and sale to a newco whilst oldco went "into liquidation"
This might help:
The football assets being sold to another company allows the club to continue playing as is at Ibrox. The statement can be found in the UK Tax Gov archives here:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130502...
2) celtic fans complained to the Advertising Standards Agency about how the club was advertising. The advert claimed that Rangers were the “most successful club” and this was the point of the complaint.
The ASA ruled on this both in an initial finding and on appeal and wrote the following:
“Whilst the ASA acknowledged that Newco had not taken on all of the debts and liabilities of Oldco when it purchased its assets and that that would normally preclude a business from trading on the reputation of a liquidated predecessor company, we noted, having read its report in full, that both an Independent Commission appointed by the SPL and the ECA had reached the conclusion that the football club RFC was a recognisable entity in its own right, and that it had continued in existence despite being transferred to another owner and operator. We consulted with UEFA, which explained that its rules allowed for the recognition of the “sporting continuity” of a club’s match record, even if that club’s corporate structure had changed. We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football “club” varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner. The SFA further pointed out that, following RFC’s transfer to a new corporate owner, Newco did not take a new membership of the Scottish FA but rather that the previous membership was transferred across to them so they could continue as the same member of the Scottish FA. We considered that consumers would understand that the claim in question related to the football club rather than to its owner and operator and we therefore concluded that it was not misleading for the ad to make reference to RFC's history, which was separate to that of Newco.”
“given RFC's history, the claim "Scotland's most successful club" was valid and would not mislead.”
This can be found here:
https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-Rangers-footbal...
It is very clear from the above the ASA in the UK determined through thorough investigation that Rangers FC were still the same club.
3) Moving on to Right Honorable Lord Nimmo Smith who during an investigation into Rangers FC use of tax schemes. The issue put to the Law Lord was this:
“Paragraphs 2 and 6 of the list of preliminary issues advance essentially the same argument, which is that on 14 June 2012, when the business and assets of Oldco were purchased and transferred to Newco, Rangers FC ceased to be a Club as defined in the Rules, and is accordingly not subject to the jurisdiction of the SPL, and thus of this Commission, in relation to any breach or breaches of the Rules committed in the period prior to that date. “
His response, in findings, concluded this:
“While it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club, it would at the least comprise its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground, even though these may change from time to time. In common speech a Club is treated as a recognisable entity which is capable of being owned and operated, and which continues in existence despite its transfer to another owner and operator.”
“While there can be no question of subjecting the new owner and operator to sanctions, there are sanctions which could be imposed in terms of the Rules which are capable of affecting the Club as a continuing entity (even though not an entity with legal personality), and which thus might affect the interest of the new owner and operator in it.”
Lord Nimmo Smith is a top Law Lord with 40 years experience and this was his summary on the topic in a legal enquiry for the SPL who were the owners of the Football League Rangers played in at the time. He clearly states the club is a continuing entity in his legal and unchallenged findings.
This can be found here:
https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/commission-reasons... Commission reasons for decision of 12 September 2012.pdf
4) Next up in the quest of understanding if the club is the same or not was the Chief Executive of the Scottish Professional Football League. Essentially this is the guy at the very top of the tree in The football League organisation and he said the following:
“In terms of the question about old club, new club, that was settled very much by the Lord
Nimmo Smith commission that was put together by the SPL to look at EBT payments at that time. The decision, very clearly from the commission, was that the club is the same, the club continues, albeit it is owned by a new company, but the club is the same.”
“The member club is the entity that participates in our league and we have 42 member clubs. Those clubs may be owned by a company, sometimes it’s a Private Limited Company, sometimes it’s a PLC, but ultimately, the company is a legal entity in its own right, which owns a member club that participates in the league. It’s the same club.”
You can read his statement in the local press here:
http://www.BOYCOTT THIS LINK/sport/football/football-news/Rangers-same-club-existed-before-4904432
5) In another court case, the "Top" Lawyer "representing" Scottish Football who has represented SPFL, the SFL and indeed celtic Football Club, who are Rangers oldest rivals, under oath, as he was a witness made the following comment:
"It was agreed that Rangers FC, NOW OWNED by Sevco Scotland, would play in the 1st division, but this didn't work out. The Club, with a capital C, had been sold to Sevco Scotland ltd."
Rod McKenzie was the solicitor for the League bodies in Scotland and the guy closest to most of this and he confirmed in a court of law that the club was legally sold on and therefore continued.
6) The top footballing body in Europe is UEFA whom im sure you are aware of. Their stance on the issue is very clear and can be found by clicking here on their website.
http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=501...
This is the profile for Rangers Football Club with all their recent scores showing however the main point is on the right of the picture where it lists their Club record in UEFA competitions going back before 2012
Won the European Cup Winners Cup in 1972 (40 years prior to when Mr Clark claims they were born)
Biggest win:
28/09/1983, Rangers 10-0 Valletta, Glasgow
• Biggest defeat:
09/10/1963, Real Madrid 6-0 Rangers, Madrid
• Appearances in UEFA Champions League: 30
• Appearances in UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 10
• Appearances in UEFA Europa League: 17
• Player with most UEFA appearances: 82
Barry Ferguson ( SCO)
• Top scorers in UEFA club competitions: 21
Ally McCoist ( SCO)
7) In yet another recent court case which went all the way to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the UK, Lord Hodge also confirmed the continuing club by making the following statement
“RFC 2012 plc which is now the name of the FORMER owners of Rangers Football Club”
This statement has not made many headlines as it appears innocuous however what Lord Hodge clearly distinguishes here is that Rangers Football Club has been sold onto new owners and that the company RFC 2012 plc (in liquidation) are the ones on the hook for whatever he is describing as opposed to the new owners of Rangers Football Club which are Rangers International Football Club plc
8) moving onto the European Club Association (ECA) who are the sole, independent body directly representing football clubs at European level. It replaces the G-14 Group and the European Club Forum, both dissolved at the beginning of 2008. ECA are fully recognised by UEFA and FIFA.
Again, having been contacted by rival fans for comments the ECA were forced to release the following statement on Rangers Football Club:
"With regards to associated membership, the membership policy states amongst others that founding members are granted automatic membership. Taking into account that the 'new entity' also acquired the goodwill of the 'old entity', it was held by the ECA executive board that the goodwill, taking into account legal and practical arguments, also included the history of the 'old company'. Consequently it was concluded that Rangers FC was entitled to associated membership of ECA as considered to be a founding member."
You can read the report on this from Scottish Television here:
https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/Rangers/205975...
NEW* 9. The SPFL audited accounts have just been released and can be found here:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC17536...
A note in the accounts stated "Aberdeen FC, who finished 2nd in the Ladbrokes Premiership and qualified for UEFA Europa League Qualifying Rounds where they were joined by Rangers FC who finished 3rd in their first season BACK in the top flight"
NEW** 10. The best of them all though has just been released as the new 10 year rankings for UEFA have been posted on their website.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefaranking...
In these rankings you can see our points from 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2011/12 are included in our total club ranking points. The same also applies to Derry City who found themselves in the exact same position as us. They too have maintained all their points pre administration and sale to a newco whilst oldco went "into liquidation"
Edited by Groat on Friday 12th March 15:58
One thing that has always interested me is what the position would have been if the owners of Partick had bought the old Rangers, moved into Ibrox and brought their current playing squad. Would they have had Rangers history? Or Partick? Or merged them?
I don't care that much about Rangers (or celtic) for that matter just interested if the scenario of another clubs owners buying rangers would change how Rangers would be viewed today?
I don't care that much about Rangers (or celtic) for that matter just interested if the scenario of another clubs owners buying rangers would change how Rangers would be viewed today?
Groat said:
I'm pretty sure you can't own 2 x clubs in the same league, so either one would have had to go or a merger (latter implying a whole new club)
Fair enough thats a good point. Let's forget merger. Could the owner of another club have bought rangers, played out of Ibrox and claimed the history?Like I say it makes no odds to me, I'm a Hearts fan. It's just an interesting twist on the Wallace Mercer situation re: Hearts & Hibs in the 90s.
deebs said:
Fair enough thats a good point. Let's forget merger. Could the owner of another club have bought rangers, played out of Ibrox and claimed the history?
Like I say it makes no odds to me, I'm a Hearts fan. It's just an interesting twist on the Wallace Mercer situation re: Hearts & Hibs in the 90s.
Rangers original SFA membership was transfered over. Your scenario would require a club having two memberships which would be impossible.Like I say it makes no odds to me, I'm a Hearts fan. It's just an interesting twist on the Wallace Mercer situation re: Hearts & Hibs in the 90s.
There would be a major conflict of interest with someone owning two clubs in the one league.
The original company that owned Hearts was also liquidated btw.
Scrubs said:
deebs said:
Fair enough thats a good point. Let's forget merger. Could the owner of another club have bought rangers, played out of Ibrox and claimed the history?
Like I say it makes no odds to me, I'm a Hearts fan. It's just an interesting twist on the Wallace Mercer situation re: Hearts & Hibs in the 90s.
Rangers original SFA membership was transfered over. Your scenario would require a club having two memberships which would be impossible.Like I say it makes no odds to me, I'm a Hearts fan. It's just an interesting twist on the Wallace Mercer situation re: Hearts & Hibs in the 90s.
There would be a major conflict of interest with someone owning two clubs in the one league.
The original company that owned Hearts was also liquidated btw.
The point is along the lines of identity, and what can be bought and sold? Is it Rangers because the people who bought it wanted it to be and it comes as one big package, or can it be refined down, that someone can buy the name, membership and stadium without the history?
It's a variation on the question is the ship still the same ship if all the parts are replaced? I think the answer is yes, but largely I'm interested in the ideas of identity and the psyche that creates them rather than the usual arguments over specifically which legal entities closed and which were opened. Football clubs have an unusual status in that supports "identify" with them so its a different take on the usual identity thought provokers.
Regardless of any hypothetical possibility, the reality is that Rangers is exactly the same football institution it has always been.
Of course, anyone who disagrees with this is perfectly free to challenge it , or any decisions which support it, at the Court of Session.
It could even be done for free by anyone who raises an action as a party litigant.
But no one has, or will.
Why not?
Because it would be a ludicrously stupid thing to do and would probably be bounced as a 'vexatious' case before it got anywhere near a hearing. ie. it's nonsense.
Of course, anyone who disagrees with this is perfectly free to challenge it , or any decisions which support it, at the Court of Session.
It could even be done for free by anyone who raises an action as a party litigant.
But no one has, or will.
Why not?
Because it would be a ludicrously stupid thing to do and would probably be bounced as a 'vexatious' case before it got anywhere near a hearing. ie. it's nonsense.
deebs said:
Well instead of having a friendly and interesting debate it sounds like you've started a thread with the purpose of convincing yourself.
Job complete, mind and turn off the lights.
[b]There's nothing TO debate. The matter's been across the desk of all sorts from senior legal figures to the highest football authorities. It's been discussed and even examined by all sorts from experienced sports media to the ASA. Job complete, mind and turn off the lights.
The outcome of all this certainly does convince me that - as they're all apparently singing from the same hymn sheet - it's only laughably stupid to try to oppose this consensus.[/b]
That isn't to say that those who seem to have some agenda to further their contrarian opinion aren't perfectly free not only to hold that opinion but to further it more formally if they've any serious belief in it.
But they haven't. It's just a wee hurty way to try to offload some pus and bile in an effort to take the shine off Glasgow Rangers' many and continuing stellar achievements.
What they don't understand (but doubtless will soon) is that it doesn't offend Rangers supporters, it makes them LAUGH!!
Edited by Groat on Saturday 13th March 00:23
What a desperate thread. The fact you've had to make a thread to pretend Rangers weren't liquidated says it all.
You can't be liquidated owing £140m and then start debt free with all the assets and the players who didn't jump ship.
As per Pistonhead rules, no Rangers threads allowed, this thread should be locked. Groat has been banned from numerous football threads and needs to create a thread for his opinion.
Rangers ceased to exist. They were given a brand new registration to start in the third division. The SFA broke every rule in the book to get Rangers back into Scottish football. It's all pretend.
ALL Rangers fans knew what liquidation meant prior to it happening. It is why you were all desperate for it not to happen.
If you want to claim your history, pay your debts.
Even the history and success of old Rangers was based on illegal EBTs. Titles should have been stripped from the old club for cheating.
Strange thread by a glory hunter that openly admitted he gave up following Rangers as they weren't winning.
The fact you've had to make a thread to pretend Rangers weren't liquidated says it all. You can't be liquidated owing £140m and then start debt free with all the assets and the players who didn't jump ship.
As per Pistonhead rules, no Rangers threads allowed, this thread should be locked. Groat has been banned from numerous football threads and needs to create a thread for his opinion.
Rangers ceased to exist. They were given a brand new registration to start in the third division. The SFA broke every rule in the book to get Rangers back into Scottish football. It's all pretend.
ALL Rangers fans knew what liquidation meant prior to it happening. It is why you were all desperate for it not to happen.
If you want to claim your history, pay your debts.
Even the history and success of old Rangers was based on illegal EBTs. Titles should have been stripped from the old club for cheating.
Strange thread by a glory hunter that openly admitted he gave up following Rangers as they weren't winning.
Edited by Driver101 on Saturday 13th March 00:11
Henson said:
Driver101 in a frenzy of denial and bitter, salty tears.
Beautiful to behold.
How do you keep only popping up for my posts? Beautiful to behold.
Credit for the stalking. The guy that doesn't "have a bone" has the biggest bone going. You've never told us how your English Hogmanay went?
Did you share the same WiFi as Groat?
Look I’m in English so have no say what ever but Rangers went bust and started a fresh, is it the same club, no that weren’t bust, but a football club isn’t about the legal ifs and buts it’s about the fans as they are the heart of it. If those fans transfer over to the new entity then it’s rangers. Simple as.
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