Ever Wonder Why There’s A Shortage Of Referees
Discussion
Appalling behaviour at amateur level.
Norfolk Sunday league goalkeeper jailed for punching referee https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-4870...
Wish they’d locked him up for longer.
Norfolk Sunday league goalkeeper jailed for punching referee https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-4870...
Wish they’d locked him up for longer.
There's a bloke at work that does some refereeing for Sunday league stuff etc. You would believe some of the stories. Had his tyres let down a few times, might have even had nails through them one time. This on top of all the verbal stuff, threats of physical violence (though I don't think he's actually had any) and even a death threat would have me running a mile. Don't know why he does it.
This is grown men, kids football is even worse
This is grown men, kids football is even worse
I posted this on the grassroots football thread in December 2016.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Both my sons refereed from age 14. My youngest (now 18) still does it every sunday, usually 2 games at u/15 or u/16. My oldest (20) stopped at 18. So basically I've had 6 yrs of watching this s
t unfold.
I wish I'd kept a diary and written a book, but yesterday was a pretty average 2 match affair, both under 15s (as at 1 sep so a mix of 14/15 yr olds). So yesterday we had:
2 parents called my son a cheat. (not that he'd made an error, but was a cheat.) Yeah, he received £40K in a brown envelope off one of the teams pre kick off. That's the going rate to favour a team in a west London u/15's div 3 match.
1 parent called him an idiot, because any fool knows you can't be offside from a free kick.
Biggest uproar came at a sending off. Kid was booked for telling the ref he was fking useless. (could've got a straight red but my son gave him a talking to and a yellow.) Later on the same kid was fouled, not badly, and when on the ground he kicked the kid that had fouled him. So got a 2nd yellow (could also have been a straight red).
This caused uproar because quite rightly the team who were now down to 10 men got the free kick when the game restarted. Half the parents said he couldn't send off a man and then restart the game with a free kick to the team who had lost a man! A more sensible head explained that the ref was right, and a mum then threatened to punch this blokes face in, because he was a "know it all". Various parents pushing and shoving, thankfully it dissipated before a fight broke out.
Then at the end of the game the coach of the team down to 10 men spoke to my son. For a crazy moment I thought he might be apologising for the conduct of his player, but in fact he was asking why no one from the other team was sent off. (err, because they never told the ref he was fking useless and then kicked out at an opponent) tt!
That's a pretty typical Sunday. On the bright side, £58 for 2 games which is better than getting up at 5am all week to do a paper round, and a few hours exercise in the fresh air. (he never actually received the £40K in the brown envelope, I made that bit up.)
t unfold.I wish I'd kept a diary and written a book, but yesterday was a pretty average 2 match affair, both under 15s (as at 1 sep so a mix of 14/15 yr olds). So yesterday we had:
2 parents called my son a cheat. (not that he'd made an error, but was a cheat.) Yeah, he received £40K in a brown envelope off one of the teams pre kick off. That's the going rate to favour a team in a west London u/15's div 3 match.
1 parent called him an idiot, because any fool knows you can't be offside from a free kick.
Biggest uproar came at a sending off. Kid was booked for telling the ref he was f
king useless. (could've got a straight red but my son gave him a talking to and a yellow.) Later on the same kid was fouled, not badly, and when on the ground he kicked the kid that had fouled him. So got a 2nd yellow (could also have been a straight red). This caused uproar because quite rightly the team who were now down to 10 men got the free kick when the game restarted. Half the parents said he couldn't send off a man and then restart the game with a free kick to the team who had lost a man! A more sensible head explained that the ref was right, and a mum then threatened to punch this blokes face in, because he was a "know it all
". Various parents pushing and shoving, thankfully it dissipated before a fight broke out. Then at the end of the game the coach of the team down to 10 men spoke to my son. For a crazy moment I thought he might be apologising for the conduct of his player, but in fact he was asking why no one from the other team was sent off. (err, because they never told the ref he was f
king useless and then kicked out at an opponent) tt!That's a pretty typical Sunday. On the bright side, £58 for 2 games which is better than getting up at 5am all week to do a paper round, and a few hours exercise in the fresh air. (he never actually received the £40K in the brown envelope, I made that bit up.)
I was at a football presentation bash a few weeks ago. Junior leagues. The representative of the official body did a talk entitled, "My Child" which had the whole place in silence and contemplation and me in tears nearly.
It was about this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...
I’m never going to defend any form of violence towards referees, I was assaulted myself on a Sunday game 5 or 6 years ago, but I see too many referees at grass roots let players and spectators get away with too much.
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
I’m never going to defend any form of violence towards referees, I was assaulted myself on a Sunday game 5 or 6 years ago, but I see too many referees at grass roots let players and spectators get away with too much.
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
Is it the case that these lads are sufficiently worried about their safety that they don't want to bring out the red?As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
Sometimes if I think the ref has had to make some tough calls at one of our matches I will make a point of saying thank you to him for doing his job well- regardless of whether the decisions were in our favour. It's a sad fact that usually the ref looks worried and is sloping off towards the exit as fast as possible (probably because a stocky middle-aged bloke is striding towards them
)Why is it just football?
I refereed American football for 25 years ( and did some junior high school games in the States)
Now the guys that play this are BIG yet they call you Sir even when you have just pulled the side back 15yds for a foul. The coaches go apest though, but explain the rules to them and 99/100 they apologise.
Yes there are bust ups on the field. You take the numbers and if necessary eject them from the game.
Years ago i had a player who got shunted round teams because, he was a frigging nutcase, late hits, running into refs etc
He 'bumped' me once and at the end of the play i walked over to him and just told him he was a better player than that and just cool down, do it again and its 15yds and you are off. He took it on board
Another game he played in, he was racking up personal fouls that were just on the 'legal' side of staying on the pitch. The Ref called him, his captain his coach and the opposing captain over and read the riot act. Next time you are walking. Opposing guy asked for him not to be sent off despite most of his side being walking wounded by this guy, The reason?? He was giving them more yards in penalties than they were totalling in the game!
Again he smelt the coffee. When he played to the rules he was a great strong safety but it was rare And Yes we do ban players for games/seasons and in a couple of instances lifetime. The FA show get a backbone and start at the top. When they see players walking and the message trickles down it might help..until then its open season for dogs abuse
In both games the players and not aware of most of the Rules/Laws In AF they accept our word in Football they know more than the officials
Same in Rugby, mostly taking note that the official is the guy in charge
I refereed American football for 25 years ( and did some junior high school games in the States)
Now the guys that play this are BIG yet they call you Sir even when you have just pulled the side back 15yds for a foul. The coaches go apes
t though, but explain the rules to them and 99/100 they apologise.Yes there are bust ups on the field. You take the numbers and if necessary eject them from the game.
Years ago i had a player who got shunted round teams because, he was a frigging nutcase, late hits, running into refs etc
He 'bumped' me once and at the end of the play i walked over to him and just told him he was a better player than that and just cool down, do it again and its 15yds and you are off. He took it on board
Another game he played in, he was racking up personal fouls that were just on the 'legal' side of staying on the pitch. The Ref called him, his captain his coach and the opposing captain over and read the riot act. Next time you are walking. Opposing guy asked for him not to be sent off despite most of his side being walking wounded by this guy, The reason?? He was giving them more yards in penalties than they were totalling in the game!
Again he smelt the coffee. When he played to the rules he was a great strong safety but it was rare And Yes we do ban players for games/seasons and in a couple of instances lifetime. The FA show get a backbone and start at the top. When they see players walking and the message trickles down it might help..until then its open season for dogs abuse
In both games the players and not aware of most of the Rules/Laws In AF they accept our word in Football they know more than the officials
Same in Rugby, mostly taking note that the official is the guy in charge
Jefferson Steelflex said:
I’m never going to defend any form of violence towards referees, I was assaulted myself on a Sunday game 5 or 6 years ago, but I see too many referees at grass roots let players and spectators get away with too much.
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
I ref'd for kids games on a sunday morning (up to until u16, because those games kicked off early and I didnt want it taking up the whole day) for 2 seasons. It's not an easy thing to do as most on here will recognise, especially without assistants running offside lines. Rightly or wrongly it changed my positioning on the field, because the angles needed to get a decent view of offisde are wider than what youd like to be able to see the action on the ball. As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
Parents/spectators are the biggest issue, as is the fact some relatively small children are playing 11aside on a full size pitch, combined with a win at all costs mentality . I was no were near acaemdy level, I was ref'ing kids who could be playing in the 6th or 7th division of non academy football at under 13/14/15/16. These boys are not going to play pro. Point being that win lose or draw they're playing for reasons other than because they're going to "make it".
The "children on a full size pitch" point can lead to some bizarre scenarios that people have not seen before and go apes
t because they dont "like" the decisions:Example #1: Goalie takes by kick (under 13s), falls over whilst kicking it but it tundles 5 or 6 yards forward. Striker runs and scores. Retake whistled for as its not left the box. Some on sidelines up in arms.
Example #2: Pass back goes back to the worlds smallest goalie who swipes at the ball as hard as he can but as it was bouncing towards him only succeeds in sending it straight up in the air (above his own head). As it comes down he now has an opposition player to contend with so he punches the ball "clear". I wait (as he has handled the back pass so technically there is an indirect free kick), an opposition player scores from the clearance (meanwhile the attacking teams sideline are going mental about the pass back violation). Goal given (advantage). Defending team sideline now asking why the game wasnt stopped for the pass back. Eh?
Example #3: Foul throw from team A. Team B takes throw in, foul throw. Team A now goes to take the throw in quickly from the wrong spot (10 yards further back) then blast the ball forward to their striker on the run. Whitsle for it to be taken from at least roughly the right area. Que much moaning on the sideline about "wheres the advantage"? Nothing to do with advantage, you cant take a throw in from anywhere other than where the ball went out.
Example #4: 1 minute left on the clock in a 3-2 game. Team who are losing take a goal kick, game flows quickly up the other end and they get a corner with about 30 seconds left to play. The defneder "cleared his lines" to the point the ball ended up across a road, so it took a couple of minutes to retrieve the ball and restart the game with the corner. Goal scored, 3-3. Much moaning from the sideline about "playing on for an additional 5 minutes".
Exampe #5: Penalty. No doubt about it, although the sideline didnt like the decision. Carry on. Striker takes penalty and hits post, rebounds out roughly towards him and he follows it up and scores. Disallowed, free kick (indirect from memory, like it matters!) to the defending team, the "kicker" cant touch the ball again until another player has. Sideline goes absolutely bananas.
These are just a few of the bizarre scenarios that happened in games I was refereeing, over the course of 2 short seasons. Many a time I stopped matches to go over and explain decisions. I then started to go over and ask (while I had stopped the kids playing) if we could talk about specific points post match rather than during. I also started talking to coaches and kids before the game about our roles on the pitch and how I would do my best to keep the game going and by the rules , but expected that the respect I show the coaches, players and spectutors to be returned to me . I then moved onto going over and saying if they didnt stop I would abandon the game. It all "works", people do mostly shut up eventually but its not worth the toil it takes on you as a person. This level of aggression and confrontation isn't good for you, unless you specifically relish getting up in folks faces.
I eventually gave up as the match organiser dragged me all over the city for games so I was leaving at times at 0930 on sunday mornings and the level of aggro just wasnt worth it, especially as I was trying not to drink too much or be out too late on saturday nights to accomodate it. The final straw was a 3-0 win at a pitch local to me (ironically closest to home I ever was) where the away team got a late corner and thought theyd scored but I gave a foul on the goalie. After the game I had a nose to nose with the team coach over it and it felt like it was going to come to blows so I decided there and then I was finshed.
All of that said I did ref alot of games for teams who had impecible sidelines and coaches who were not only great people to deal with but who gave up huge amounts of their own free time to coach, bus about and be mentors to children who just want to play the game.
I did my best
Jefferson Steelflex said:
I’m never going to defend any form of violence towards referees, I was assaulted myself on a Sunday game 5 or 6 years ago, but I see too many referees at grass roots let players and spectators get away with too much.
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
Totally agree with this.As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
Too many refs let it go too long and cause problems for themselves. It’s different for us on a Saturday with paying spectators and ‘expectations’ from those in power, but even then any form of verbal dissent is dealt with early and very firmly.
I played at a half decent level and the best ref I can remember was a Scottish guy who would tell players to f
k off / shut the fk up / don't do that (whilst wagging a finger) etc etc and he could control a game. Played away at a coastal side and the referee was so weak the home team took complete advantage and started making challenges that would make a Sunday league player blush, ended up with one of our players getting ligament damage which more or less ended his playing days. Good refs are worth their weight in gold, I always tried to respect them but sometimes it is hard and I think players with less mental capacity than others use it as an excuse to essentially be a thug for 90 minutes. We wouldn't be able to play / watch without them, they should be respected.
It's actually really simple to implement as I've thought about this a lot since starting to go and watch rugby as well as having a season ticket for a non-league side. It's all about respect. If changes are implemented at the top level, then introduced at grass roots it'll only take a few years for behaviours to change and to have eradicated entirely.
If a foul is given against you, whether you believe the decision was correctly given or not, you offer your hand to the 'victim' of the foul
Only the offending player and/or captain can address the referee, who you will address as 'sir'
You shake hands with all players after the game
You will be sent off for any form of simulation
Using offensive language aimed at a referee is a sending off offence
If you want to celebrate with the fans then go ahead, you won't be booked.
Granted, many of these are unwritten rules but they're often the rules which are the most adhered to.
Having said that I have seen a little more fair play in the past couple of seasons which is great to see but more can be done
If a foul is given against you, whether you believe the decision was correctly given or not, you offer your hand to the 'victim' of the foul
Only the offending player and/or captain can address the referee, who you will address as 'sir'
You shake hands with all players after the game
You will be sent off for any form of simulation
Using offensive language aimed at a referee is a sending off offence
If you want to celebrate with the fans then go ahead, you won't be booked.
Granted, many of these are unwritten rules but they're often the rules which are the most adhered to.
Having said that I have seen a little more fair play in the past couple of seasons which is great to see but more can be done
Jefferson Steelflex said:
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
In reality, the clubs would not get a massive fine, or any fine at all. If a ref abandoned a game because he was getting stick off the parents, he would not be asked to referee another game. The ref does a report after each game, and plenty of my sons' reports contained complaints about a teams parents or even a team's officials abusing the ref. No action was ever taken.
The manager and officials of kids football are all voluntary, often the only ones offering to do it in the rougher areas, so there's no way the local FA are ever going to fine them, or even upset them.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Jefferson Steelflex said:
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
In reality, the clubs would not get a massive fine, or any fine at all. If a ref abandoned a game because he was getting stick off the parents, he would not be asked to referee another game. The ref does a report after each game, and plenty of my sons' reports contained complaints about a teams parents or even a team's officials abusing the ref. No action was ever taken.
The manager and officials of kids football are all voluntary, often the only ones offering to do it in the rougher areas, so there's no way the local FA are ever going to fine them, or even upset them.
I genuinely feel that younger referees need far more support. The Fa should try to establish a better mentor scheme where experienced officials go and watch and advise. I do it, and a few of my colleagues do to, but it’s an exception rather than policy.
That said, refereeing is hugely character building. Of all the things I have done I my professional life, it is actually being a referee that has given the me the most skills and confidence to deal with conflict, stressful/difficult situations, speaking in front of a large audience, etc. People do it because it gives them great experience, but you need to be thick skinned while you build the experience.
Jefferson Steelflex said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Jefferson Steelflex said:
As Twig said, where it should have been a red card, then it should have been a red card. In retrospect is no good. Stick a red card up their nose and then they’ll learn. Same with parents, start giving a young kid stick for doing his job as a referee - blow the whistle, abandon the game and report the clubs. They’ll get a massive fine and will soon learn.
In reality, the clubs would not get a massive fine, or any fine at all. If a ref abandoned a game because he was getting stick off the parents, he would not be asked to referee another game. The ref does a report after each game, and plenty of my sons' reports contained complaints about a teams parents or even a team's officials abusing the ref. No action was ever taken.
The manager and officials of kids football are all voluntary, often the only ones offering to do it in the rougher areas, so there's no way the local FA are ever going to fine them, or even upset them.
I genuinely feel that younger referees need far more support. The Fa should try to establish a better mentor scheme where experienced officials go and watch and advise. I do it, and a few of my colleagues do to, but it’s an exception rather than policy.
That said, refereeing is hugely character building. Of all the things I have done I my professional life, it is actually being a referee that has given the me the most skills and confidence to deal with conflict, stressful/difficult situations, speaking in front of a large audience, etc. People do it because it gives them great experience, but you need to be thick skinned while you build the experience.
Nothing was ever done about any of them. I know one coach who was dropped, but that was by his own club after the match with us. He went on to coach (with his son joining the new club naturally) He remains a violent thug and a racist bigot. The FA are simply not interested.
We had a code of conduct, this extended to parents. We would ask them to applaud and support good play, but NEVER comment on Refs decisions or on things which we didn’t like.
Most of the refs we had would be learning and in the 14 - 16 year old range. Most we not that great, but having ref’d a few games myself, it is not always easy.
I did a bit of reffing in my 20's usually when I was injured. My approach was simple and probably not something a 14-16 year old would do.
I got both teams together at the start of the game and told them
- I'm here to help you enjoy your game but I will make mistakes. Its not deliberate so get on with it.
- If anyone touches me, swears at me, threatens me, You'll be sent off. No warnings, I'm not here to be abused
- If anyone gets out of hand or is violent, I will call the captain over and will expect them to guide the player when I send them off
- If your fans (all 7 of them) decide to abuse the referee then I'll abandon the game because of feeling threatened
- I will play the advantage rule
- If you don't know the laws of football, it might be worth you reading them before I next referee a game for you
- You're here to have fun
This approach worked really well and many times after games players came and had a chat about decisions but very little abuse. Had to deal with a few idiots, but thats true in any sport but I am convinced that the discussion before the game helped. An early booking usually helped as well as it showed I was not to be messed with (Nearly all teams had a thug who would do a "Tony Adams" in the first 5 minutes)
One incident I recall and I still don't know whether I got it right was a defender saved a ball from going in with his hand right on the line about 10 minutes into the game. It was deliberate and I paused too long. I gave the goal and let the player stay on the pitch despite it being dubious if the ball had crossed the line. Neither team was happy but you have to make decisions
I got both teams together at the start of the game and told them
- I'm here to help you enjoy your game but I will make mistakes. Its not deliberate so get on with it.
- If anyone touches me, swears at me, threatens me, You'll be sent off. No warnings, I'm not here to be abused
- If anyone gets out of hand or is violent, I will call the captain over and will expect them to guide the player when I send them off
- If your fans (all 7 of them) decide to abuse the referee then I'll abandon the game because of feeling threatened
- I will play the advantage rule
- If you don't know the laws of football, it might be worth you reading them before I next referee a game for you
- You're here to have fun
This approach worked really well and many times after games players came and had a chat about decisions but very little abuse. Had to deal with a few idiots, but thats true in any sport but I am convinced that the discussion before the game helped. An early booking usually helped as well as it showed I was not to be messed with (Nearly all teams had a thug who would do a "Tony Adams" in the first 5 minutes)
One incident I recall and I still don't know whether I got it right was a defender saved a ball from going in with his hand right on the line about 10 minutes into the game. It was deliberate and I paused too long. I gave the goal and let the player stay on the pitch despite it being dubious if the ball had crossed the line. Neither team was happy but you have to make decisions
Almost as bad is running the line as you're up close to the spectators.
It's amazing how often parents 50m away, at the other end of the pitch, spot how badly you've called a marginal offside.
Or how parents on the opposite side of the pitch can see you've cheated by flagging the ball out for a throw-in.
One very experienced referee we had in charge used to get the managers together with us before the match and say "See this whistle and these flags? They mean we are right, even when we are wrong. Any dissent gets a card or removal."
It's amazing how often parents 50m away, at the other end of the pitch, spot how badly you've called a marginal offside.
Or how parents on the opposite side of the pitch can see you've cheated by flagging the ball out for a throw-in.
One very experienced referee we had in charge used to get the managers together with us before the match and say "See this whistle and these flags? They mean we are right, even when we are wrong. Any dissent gets a card or removal."
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