The Official England Thread- The Team We All Support [Vol 3]

[RichB]

johnboy1975 said:

<clip> For me: Shaw's ready apparently, does he come straight in? With "Trent" as RB, Shaw LB and Gordon on the left wing we might actually have a bit of width. Can Bellingham play deeper and Foden behind Kane? Can't drop (rest!) Kane else I'd have him as an impact sub and to be in the pitch for penalties. Palmer on for Saka (RW) if Sakas struggling, and again, he'll be on the pitch for penalties (if required) ...

I'd go with most of that but I'd play sub Bowen on for Saka, he would add some grit and determination...

[GloverMart]

Adam. said:

Dave200 said:

Of England's "abundance of riches" you've got:
- Rice, not even the best player at his club on current form
- Foden, I'm struggling to recall a single decent England performance
- Kane, isn't playing well and is barely managing the basics
- Bellingham, looks absolutely knackered

thats a strange argument used to support GS

Rice was excellent for Arsenal, and has been solid so far
Foden was brilliant at City, GS is ruining him by playing him in the wrong place
Kane was excellent for Bayern, GS is ruining him, with his negative tactics leaving him isolated
Bellingham is knackered because GS should be rotating him with Foden

1000% agree, Adam. I wouldn't want Dave200 on my defence team, he makes a better case for the prosecution.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

TEKNOPUG said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Well that puts him in the top echelon of England managers, because all be one of his predecessors never won anything, most never got as close as Southgate, and were hopeless at the off the pitch stuff.

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Tuesday 2nd July 16:40

He's still failed at every tournament. Being slightly less rubbish than other rubbish people doesn't mean he's any good. All the other managers had previously been successful in club management, so may be the issue was with the players and all the off-field issues?

GS may have fixed the off-field issues but he's never demonstrated he's any good with the onfield matters, at any time during his career.

Do you want him at Chelsea? Do you think any Prem club will be clamouring for his services?

He was being touted for Man Utd not long ago.

We've had some great results under Southgate. A win in a tournament v Germany, for the first time since 1966. A win away to Italy. A very comfortable victory v Sweden in a WC QF, a team we've always struggled to deal with. Coming from behind to win a tournament semi, a first in our history. Being ahead in a WC semi, for the first time since 1966. We've scored 6 goals in WC group matches twice. Previously unheard of. Winning a penalty shootout for only the 2nd time in our history.

My first recollection of watching England was the 1970 WC. This has been the best period in English football in my time of watching England.

[Legacywr]

Well done Turkey, and what a save.

[JNW1]

Legacywr said:

Well done Turkey, and what a save.

Yes although despite what the pundits are saying for me the better team lost tonight - good for England that Austria are out though.

[PomBstard]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

My first recollection of watching England was the 1970 WC. This has been the best period in English football in my time of watching England.

I started watching England around 1980’ish but what I don’t recall is the expectation at that time. English clubs, with predominantly English players and English managers, won the European Cup for six successive seasons, and neither Greenwood or Robson were new to the game - so what happened? Surely that was the time for England to have won something, and set up the future?

I’m no Southgate apologist, but I do wonder why England just can’t get it right at National team level, and why others are able to consistently be a threat - Germany, France, Spain, Italy, plus Portugal and Netherlands. I don’t think it’s just a playing-with-arrogance thing, there has to be something more fundamental wrong for so much talent to be continually squandered.

[NRG1976]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

TEKNOPUG said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Well that puts him in the top echelon of England managers, because all be one of his predecessors never won anything, most never got as close as Southgate, and were hopeless at the off the pitch stuff.

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Tuesday 2nd July 16:40

He's still failed at every tournament. Being slightly less rubbish than other rubbish people doesn't mean he's any good. All the other managers had previously been successful in club management, so may be the issue was with the players and all the off-field issues?

GS may have fixed the off-field issues but he's never demonstrated he's any good with the onfield matters, at any time during his career.

Do you want him at Chelsea? Do you think any Prem club will be clamouring for his services?

He was being touted for Man Utd not long ago.

We've had some great results under Southgate. A win in a tournament v Germany, for the first time since 1966. A win away to Italy. A very comfortable victory v Sweden in a WC QF, a team we've always struggled to deal with. Coming from behind to win a tournament semi, a first in our history. Being ahead in a WC semi, for the first time since 1966. We've scored 6 goals in WC group matches twice. Previously unheard of. Winning a penalty shootout for only the 2nd time in our history.

My first recollection of watching England was the 1970 WC. This has been the best period in English football in my time of watching England.

Southgate has and always be an absolutely mediocre manager. Supremely lucky with the team we end up going up against in tournaments.

Southgate has very little tactical understanding, very little managerial impact during half time team talks in shaping 2nd half performances, very little ability to change a game tactically during the game, very little concept of how to utilise a squad/use subs to make a difference.

Historical stats in years to come will look back and (if we beat the the Swiss) say another semi-final in euro 2024, weren’t we amazing, we topped the group etc. - the reality however is before us now and stats paint a different picture.

Absolutely dire performances, last minute goal saving us, and being on a ridiculously easy side of the knockout draw mask the reality.

[NRG1976]

PomBstard said:

I’m no Southgate apologist, but I do wonder why England just can’t get it right at National team level, and why others are able to consistently be a threat - Germany, France, Spain, Italy, plus Portugal and Netherlands. I don’t think it’s just a playing-with-arrogance thing, there has to be something more fundamental wrong for so much talent to be continually squandered.

Most recently the issue stems from a poor manager. Prior to that, the so called golden generation hated each other so there was never really any team spirit which gives you that extra 1% etc.

[jules_s]

NRG1976 said:

PomBstard said:

I’m no Southgate apologist, but I do wonder why England just can’t get it right at National team level, and why others are able to consistently be a threat - Germany, France, Spain, Italy, plus Portugal and Netherlands. I don’t think it’s just a playing-with-arrogance thing, there has to be something more fundamental wrong for so much talent to be continually squandered.

Most recently the issue stems from a poor manager. Prior to that, the so called golden generation hated each other so there was never really any team spirit which gives you that extra 1% etc.

And I think thats where GS gets credit

He stopped all that team hatred and got them to 'gel'

The problem now is (IMO) Southgate is ste tactically and the gelled team don't want to play his negative tactics - despite the soundbites

[732NM]

jules_s said:

And I think thats where GS gets credit

He stopped all that team hatred and got them to 'gel'

The problem now is (IMO) Southgate is ste tactically and the gelled team don't want to play his negative tactics - despite the soundbites

Team hatred doesn't exist anymore. The players are playing at clubs for the money and bugger off if a better offer comes along.

The days of players being wedded to their club and building hate for their club rivals are long gone.

[NRG1976]

jules_s said:

NRG1976 said:

PomBstard said:

I’m no Southgate apologist, but I do wonder why England just can’t get it right at National team level, and why others are able to consistently be a threat - Germany, France, Spain, Italy, plus Portugal and Netherlands. I don’t think it’s just a playing-with-arrogance thing, there has to be something more fundamental wrong for so much talent to be continually squandered.

Most recently the issue stems from a poor manager. Prior to that, the so called golden generation hated each other so there was never really any team spirit which gives you that extra 1% etc.

And I think thats where GS gets credit

He stopped all that team hatred and got them to 'gel'

The problem now is (IMO) Southgate is ste tactically and the gelled team don't want to play his negative tactics - despite the soundbites

Team bonding has nothing to do with Southgate imho, footballers have changed, most are mates with each other and keep in touch via social media, they do not have the depth of rivalry that existed previously.

[PRO5T]

NRG1976 said:

jules_s said:

NRG1976 said:

PomBstard said:

I’m no Southgate apologist, but I do wonder why England just can’t get it right at National team level, and why others are able to consistently be a threat - Germany, France, Spain, Italy, plus Portugal and Netherlands. I don’t think it’s just a playing-with-arrogance thing, there has to be something more fundamental wrong for so much talent to be continually squandered.

Most recently the issue stems from a poor manager. Prior to that, the so called golden generation hated each other so there was never really any team spirit which gives you that extra 1% etc.

And I think thats where GS gets credit

He stopped all that team hatred and got them to 'gel'

The problem now is (IMO) Southgate is ste tactically and the gelled team don't want to play his negative tactics - despite the soundbites

Team bonding has nothing to do with Southgate imho, footballers have changed, most are mates with each other and keep in touch via social media, they do not have the depth of rivalry that existed previously.

All good points and nothing I can disagree with and it wasn’t just the players back then-the managers hated each other and the squads!

I’ll also add that the best players from countries other than England more often than not travel and work abroad.

Maybe they just have a more rounded view of international football because they’ve a wider experience of it.

[48k]

I like Southgate. He was in the year above me at school, and the best asset the school produced, aside from Romesh Ranganathan and of course, Chico. He's "one of our own" and I will defend him to the hilt, but I'd have a lot more respect for him if his post match interviews were like this:

https://x.com/wolfden1877/status/18079004649244797...

[TWODs]

48k said:

I like Southgate. He was in the year above me at school, and the best asset the school produced, aside from Romesh Ranganathan and of course, Chico. He's "one of our own" and I will defend him to the hilt, but I'd have a lot more respect for him if his post match interviews were like this:

https://x.com/wolfden1877/status/18079004649244797...

That is great... you've got to hope that behind closed doors this is what they are saying to each other, or are they that far from reality that they think, luck, fate, destiny and divine intervention are the only things you need to win a proper tournament?

[bobski1]

TWODs said:

48k said:

I like Southgate. He was in the year above me at school, and the best asset the school produced, aside from Romesh Ranganathan and of course, Chico. He's "one of our own" and I will defend him to the hilt, but I'd have a lot more respect for him if his post match interviews were like this:

https://x.com/wolfden1877/status/18079004649244797...

That is great... you've got to hope that behind closed doors this is what they are saying to each other, or are they that far from reality that they think, luck, fate, destiny and divine intervention are the only things you need to win a proper tournament?

Im not sure that they do, from the interveiws they give and the way they have responded to the criticism it seems like they are all bought into the GS way, either that or they are just saying it to stay in the good books and squad rather than being cast out for going against the system.

I really hope it changes but I just cannot see it, although would people accept this way if it did lead to winning the Euros??

[Dave200]

GloverMart said:

Adam. said:

Dave200 said:

Of England's "abundance of riches" you've got:
- Rice, not even the best player at his club on current form
- Foden, I'm struggling to recall a single decent England performance
- Kane, isn't playing well and is barely managing the basics
- Bellingham, looks absolutely knackered

thats a strange argument used to support GS

Rice was excellent for Arsenal, and has been solid so far
Foden was brilliant at City, GS is ruining him by playing him in the wrong place
Kane was excellent for Bayern, GS is ruining him, with his negative tactics leaving him isolated
Bellingham is knackered because GS should be rotating him with Foden

1000% agree, Adam. I wouldn't want Dave200 on my defence team, he makes a better case for the prosecution.

So, tell me something. If Portugal, with their "abundance of riches" (3 world class players) struggled past Slovenia, why was it such a failure for Southgate that a similarly talented England side struggled to do the same?

[Arrivalist]

Dave200 said:

GloverMart said:

Adam. said:

Dave200 said:

Of England's "abundance of riches" you've got:
- Rice, not even the best player at his club on current form
- Foden, I'm struggling to recall a single decent England performance
- Kane, isn't playing well and is barely managing the basics
- Bellingham, looks absolutely knackered

thats a strange argument used to support GS

Rice was excellent for Arsenal, and has been solid so far
Foden was brilliant at City, GS is ruining him by playing him in the wrong place
Kane was excellent for Bayern, GS is ruining him, with his negative tactics leaving him isolated
Bellingham is knackered because GS should be rotating him with Foden

1000% agree, Adam. I wouldn't want Dave200 on my defence team, he makes a better case for the prosecution.

So, tell me something. If Portugal, with their "abundance of riches" (3 world class players) struggled past Slovenia, why was it such a failure for Southgate that a similarly talented England side struggled to do the same?

Nice bit of whataboutery!

Q. What relevance is Portugal to the awful way we play?

A. None at all.

Edited by Arrivalist on Wednesday 3rd July 18:32

[Dave200]

Arrivalist said:

Nice bit of whataboutery!

Q. What relevance is Portugal to the awful way we play?

A. None at all.

Edited by Arrivalist on Wednesday 3rd July 18:32

Nothing "whatabout" at all.

Southgate has come under persistent criticism for not getting the most out of such a hugely talented side. I'd say that Portugal are equally talented, and performing similarly.

[NRG1976]

Dave200 said:

Arrivalist said:

Nice bit of whataboutery!

Q. What relevance is Portugal to the awful way we play?

A. None at all.

Edited by Arrivalist on Wednesday 3rd July 18:32

Nothing "whatabout" at all.

Southgate has come under persistent criticism for not getting the most out of such a hugely talented side. I'd say that Portugal are equally talented, and performing similarly.

At least Portugal attacked and tried to proactively win!

[Dave200]

NRG1976 said:

Dave200 said:

Arrivalist said:

Nice bit of whataboutery!

Q. What relevance is Portugal to the awful way we play?

A. None at all.

Edited by Arrivalist on Wednesday 3rd July 18:32

Nothing "whatabout" at all.

Southgate has come under persistent criticism for not getting the most out of such a hugely talented side. I'd say that Portugal are equally talented, and performing similarly.

At least Portugal attacked and tried to proactively win!

Portugal XG vs Slovenia: 1.9 (including a penalty)
England XG vs Slovenia: 1.4

Yeah, a massive difference there.