The Official England Thread- The Team We All Support [Vol 3]

[TEKNOPUG]

Gargamel said:

The expectation is I think fairly simple.

I honestly don't mind England losing a game of football. Provided, everyone tried, we did all we could and gave it everything. You get beat, outplayed it happens and I am OK with it.

But, when I see these players in the PL every week, they appear to put so much more effort in. England in the last three games have been plodding, we have never upped the tempo, played at pace, and on a few occasions when our opposition hasn't had ten men behind the ball, then don't worry we can't play a fast break because everyone is back waiting for Pickford to kick it long.

The safety first, possession football isn't the entertainment I want to watch, it might bring results (to a point) but don't whine when you play unlovely football and then people criticise you.

Play some passionate, entertaining flair football and if we get beat, then at least we can hold our heads up.

All you can ask of any manager is that he gets the best out of the players at his disposal - and I think that we can all agree the GS isn't doing that currently. And all you can ask from the players is that they put in a shift and try and win the game. No one minds getting beaten by a better team (sure we're disappointed but can't have many complaints) but losing because you've been too cautious or not used all the players (substitutions) at your disposal or not tried to change tactics and influence the result or simply not put enough effort in is inexcusable.

[aeropilot]

TEKNOPUG said:

That will be the final when we were 1-0 up after 3mins and failed to have another shot on target in the following 120mins? And then lost on penalties to a very average Italy - who failed to qualify for the 2022 WC?

You can play dull, boring, defensive football as long as you win - see Mourinho or Conte. Getting to a final or semi-final and losing is still losing. Every tournament Southgate has enjoyed plenty of talented players to choose from, extremely fortuitous draws against teams well below England's ability and for the most part, the support of the nation and media. And each time has come up short the moment we play anyone decent. It's like managing a Prem team in the FA Cup and getting drawn against Championship and lower league teams all the way to the final, where you play another Prem team and lose. How can getting to the final be seen as a success if you didn't play anyone of note in the process and lost anyway?

And he's had 8 years and 4 tournaments to try and figure out how to beat another top 10 team in a tournament; including all games, he's played top 10 teams 24 times and won just 4! Given the amount of time in the job, by far the longest managerial reign of any other top 10 nation, we should be the most organised and disciplined side playing at the Euros. There should be well defined tactics and formations with everyone knowing their place and what to do and well rehearsed contingencies for every eventuality. Instead, it looks like he was parachuted in 3 months before the tournament began, with a squad that someone else picked and he's just making it up as he goes along.

But we are clearly expecting too much and should all cut him some slack because he beat some poor sides in previous tournaments and might even had won if we didn't actually have to play anyone good....

[S600BSB]

Hants PHer said:

I'd expect that all the managers of the so-called 'stronger' teams at Euro 2024 are receiving stick, with the possible exception of Spain (or have the Spanish media also been critical?).

• Germany - good start but a bit fortunate to get a draw with Switzerland
• Italy - feeble against Spain and so reliant on the brilliant Donnarumma in goal
• England - 'nuff said
• France - two goals in three games, couldn't beat Poland, perhaps they're a one man team (Mbappe)
• Netherlands - one narrow win then outplayed by Austria
• Belgium - even worse than England, I think, and finished second in their group
• Portugal - looked hopeless against spirited Georgia last night

So far, the smaller nations have looked better organised, more motivated and often more skilful than the big boys. England are not the only ones with problems, it seems.

Completely agree. From a footballing perspective it’s actually been a pretty rubbish tournament so far. Maybe the top players are all playing too much in long seasons and are knackered?

[Yazza54]

I'm kinda glad we've been st, it's brought upon some reflection on the strategies and line up and put more focus on the lads we have on the bench.

Can you imagine if we steamrolled through 3 st teams and stormed the group... "It's coming home" would be all over the place, then we would get RAILED by the first decent team we play.

Granted this way round the boys don't have a spring in their step but a few tweaks and one good performance could turn things around in a heartbeat.

I also believe we will play better against better oppositions in a knockout environment where someone has to win and our opponents aren't coming in with the mindset of "let's try and get a point".

I think us scoring too early is a bit of a curse, but if we do we need to continue to do more of the same, attack is the best form of defence, break em down and take control... I'll not hold my breath, but I'm also mildly optimistic for improvement.

[brake fader]

Im starting to think our name maybe on the trophy, so far we have scored 2 goals played really st and won the group now we play slovakia in the easier side of the draw, its only southgate who can balls it up from here.

[Voldemort]

[aeropilot]

Voldemort said:

[Muzzer79]

TEKNOPUG said:

Muzzer79 said:

coldel said:

I would disagree

There has always been good support for the England manager

Only when he is successful, or right at the start when people look forward to a 'fresh start'

If ANY performance is considered weak then he is pilloried. Southgate was getting criticised in Euro 2021 and we got to the sodding final.

That will be the final when we were 1-0 up after 3mins and failed to have another shot on target in the following 120mins? And then lost on penalties to a very average Italy - who failed to qualify for the 2022 WC?

Case in point

We get all the way to the final of a major tournament and it's not good enough. We were 1-0 up, we should have done this, we didn't do that. We lost on penalties.

This is sport, played by humans. It's not as simple as saying that we should have beaten Italy because they didn't qualify for the '22 WC - Italy beat Belgium, Austria and Spain on their way to the final so can't have been that 'average'

It truly is a poisoned chalice. I can think of no worse job in football.

Every good manager England have ever had has been hounded out of the job because of expectation and media pressure - have they all been that bad?

Southgate is the equal second-longest serving manager after Sir Alf Ramsey, at eight years. Surely if the job were so straightforward, one of the other world class managers who has had the job would have lasted longer than 5 years (the next longest reign) and achieved more?

At what point do you say it's not the manager that's the problem?

[aeropilot]

Muzzer79 said:

Southgate is the equal second-longest serving manager after Sir Alf Ramsey, at eight years. Surely if the job were so straightforward, one of the other world class managers who has had the job would have lasted longer than 5 years (the next longest reign) and achieved more?

At what point do you say it's not the manager that's the problem?

As said before, the FA is a big part of the problem, as the England manager's role to them, is a lot more than just coaching and choosing the squad players each time, and that's a big part of the problem, and maybe more so than other countries team coaches have to deal with.
The FA want the England manager to be the blazer and tie wearing FA role that has to do a lot more behind the scenes with the FA, which is what went against El Tel, and BFS, and why 'Arry Redknapp never got a sniff of the job.
Southgate does that role very well for the FA......but he's a crap coach of the players. The FA would rather have the Southgate's of this world than the Venables and Redknapp's. And you only have to see why they got shot of Hoddle and BFS as well in that regard.

[TEKNOPUG]

Muzzer79 said:

TEKNOPUG said:

Muzzer79 said:

coldel said:

I would disagree

There has always been good support for the England manager

Only when he is successful, or right at the start when people look forward to a 'fresh start'

If ANY performance is considered weak then he is pilloried. Southgate was getting criticised in Euro 2021 and we got to the sodding final.

That will be the final when we were 1-0 up after 3mins and failed to have another shot on target in the following 120mins? And then lost on penalties to a very average Italy - who failed to qualify for the 2022 WC?

Case in point

We get all the way to the final of a major tournament and it's not good enough. We were 1-0 up, we should have done this, we didn't do that. We lost on penalties.

This is sport, played by humans. It's not as simple as saying that we should have beaten Italy because they didn't qualify for the '22 WC - Italy beat Belgium, Austria and Spain on their way to the final so can't have been that 'average'

You're missing the point. It's the manner of performance coupled with the result. We failed to have another shot on target in 2 hours. We didn't try to win, we tried not to lose. We should finish the game without any regrets, knowing we tried our all to win. Not with "what ifs". We should be playing on the front foot, trying to beat the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom....then at least you know you tried everything to win and if the other team are better than you, so be it. We should focus on trying to score more goals than the other team, rather than conceding less.

You can get away with negative, defensive "hold what we have" football if you actually win. Mourinho has made a whole career from it - the difference though is that he has won 26 major trophies.

[LimmerickLad]

aeropilot said:

As said before, the FA is a big part of the problem, as the England manager's role to them, is a lot more than just coaching and choosing the squad players each time, and that's a big part of the problem, and maybe more so than other countries team coaches have to deal with.
The FA want the England manager to be the blazer and tie wearing FA role that has to do a lot more behind the scenes with the FA, which is what went against El Tel, and BFS, and why 'Arry Redknapp never got a sniff of the job.
Southgate does that role very well for the FA......but he's a crap coach of the players. The FA would rather have the Southgate's of this world than the Venables and Redknapp's. And you only have to see why they got shot of Hoddle and BFS as well in that regard.

Well put.

[soupdragon1]

Muzzer79 said:

At what point do you say it's not the manager that's the problem?

I don't know, but its certainly not right now. People gave Southgate a pass at the diabolical Wembley friendly a few weeks ago. The players are protecting themselves from injury, being one 'we forgive you' gesture.

Turns out that friendly against Iceland was a fair barometer, and we've seen equally lackluster performances during the tournament.

I hear Luke Shaw will be fit for Sunday. Just one or two changes to the line up can make a huge difference. Silva and Fernandes were on the bench for Portugal last night and Portugal looked terrible, after looking great the match before. So personnel changes make a big difference. Its up to Southgate to get that right. Mainoo, Gordon and that Chelsea youngster on the right wing, and possibly Luke Shaw. He's got some options at his disposal but if he gets it wrong, he's the problem. The squad is talented and if they continue to play badly, thats Southgates fault.

Tournament football can be funny and I still rate England as a strong contender. One good performance can be a catalyst so it could flip around quite quickly if Southgate gets it right. Bellingham doesn't deserve to start in the next game for example. Dropping players who aren't doing well is par for the course but Southgate is suspect in that department IMO. Foden looks like he wants to make things happen for the team and maybe I'm being harsh, but I get a vibe that Bellingham wants to make things happen for himself. I would certainly have Foden over Bellingham if given a choice.

[TEKNOPUG]

Muzzer79 said:

Southgate is the equal second-longest serving manager after Sir Alf Ramsey, at eight years. Surely if the job were so straightforward, one of the other world class managers who has had the job would have lasted longer than 5 years (the next longest reign) and achieved more?

What has he actually achieved though? He's been fortunate to be manager during a time of tournament expansion, so there are now a lot more weaker teams involved and always in an easy group. Comparing to previous managers is a pointless exercise; different players, different opposition, different tournaments. Here is his tournament record:

WON	DRAWN	LOST
Croatia	Denmark	Belgium
Denmark	Scotland	Belgium
Germany	Slovenia	Croatia
Iran	United States	France
Panama		Italy
Senegal
Colombia
Czech Republic
Serbia
Sweden
Tunisia
Ukraine
Wales

Can you see a pattern? He has achieved a 16% win rate whenever we play a top 10 team.

[Flip Martian]

redrabbit29 said:

England fans are often described as arrogant. The last week or two nicely demonstrates why this is completely true.

Social media is full of endless mocking of Gareth Southgate and the England team. I'm talking about memes, jokes, gifs, mocked up videos, etc. (Some are funny tbf).

We have many, including some "official accounts" talking about what may be our route to the final, and who they'd prefer in the Semi-Final.

The England team haven't performed well, it's been pretty poor and boring. But they've still topped the group, they've still got through, they're still finding their feet.

Year-after-year this kind of thing has happened. It goes right back to my childhood when the media would just pounce on players, and now it's social media.

Then we have boo'ing and things being thrown at Gareth Southgate on the pitch after their last game.

England fans deserve nothing but another quick exit from a competition, a new manager, and then another decade of moaning about them being incompetent.

This is the impression fans of other countries - or even some English people - I know, also have. England "fans" actually have some English people supporting the opposition because "it's funny to see England fans implode and whinge yet again". Sad state of affairs really.

[48k]

soupdragon1 said:

I hear Luke Shaw will be fit for Sunday.

Fit in what sense though? He hasn't played a competitive game since February and usually takes a few games when coming back from his many injuries to get back to full sharpness.
He really shouldn't have been in the squad IMHO, it's asking a lot of him if he is thrown in to games now.

[Flip Martian]

48k said:

soupdragon1 said:

I hear Luke Shaw will be fit for Sunday.

Fit in what sense though? He hasn't played a competitive game since February and usually takes a few games when coming back from his many injuries to get back to full sharpness.
He really shouldn't have been in the squad IMHO, it's asking a lot of him if he is thrown in to games now.

International class, at his best. Out since February = should be nowhere near the squad. Very strange. Surely a squad of match fit players should be the bare minimum.

[philv]

We do have attacking options.

The subs that came on all looked good.

He needs to use them or i think well go out on penalties.

[Wadeski]

Fit, with recent match time, and playing in position.

Its interesting when you look at some of the high-performing teams from smaller footballing nations in tournaments - they have players from the equivalent of our Championship, if not league one.

But they are playing in position, and their performances are dragged up by the better players around them. We put out 11 very strong individual players who are hard to argue with from a talent POV, but are either playing out of position, out of system, or are otherwise out of sorts.

Someone raised the interesting point about Tyrick Mitchell about 20 pages back. No one is saying he is the amongst the top 4 rated defenders in the country. But he's a natural left back, who plays with Guehi day in day out.

Gareth could have build his confidence in the friendlies, and given England 2 pairs in defense who play tegether and club level. But instead we have the four highest-rated defenders who look like they are communicating with each by pigeon and signal fires.

[Frimley111R]

Flip Martian said:

48k said:

soupdragon1 said:

I hear Luke Shaw will be fit for Sunday.

Fit in what sense though? He hasn't played a competitive game since February and usually takes a few games when coming back from his many injuries to get back to full sharpness.
He really shouldn't have been in the squad IMHO, it's asking a lot of him if he is thrown in to games now.

International class, at his best. Out since February = should be nowhere near the squad. Very strange. Surely a squad of match fit players should be the bare minimum.

I've seen the match fit players, they're ste. Match fit or not, Shaw can't be worse than any of the rest of the squad.

Anyway, I think England are doing well given they couldn't even beat Iceland a few weeks ago....

[brake fader]

Not bringing a fit left back when we do have players that other teams would gladly have in their team is just totally arrogant and stupid, southgate should be sacked for this alone he's brought players that haven't kicked a ball yet but we have lacked a left back in every game it's criminal.