Discussion
I think that's what you call it, laying flat on a bench and pushing dumbbells up as you twist them.
Last year I used to do this with 26Kg in each hand, bit difficult but usually managed 3 sets of 12, maybe cutting 3rd set short at 8 or 9 on a bad day. I used to do this with the bench at the first position up from being flat, so maybe 15 or 20 degree slope. I could have done 28 or possibly a couple of short sets at 30 on a very good day.
This year, after a break at the end of last year, but now with the bench flat, no slope at all (on the recommendation of one of the trainers) I'm struggling to do 18Kg and only once managed 1 set of 8 at 20Kg each hand. This is after a few months getting back into it.
I've also just pulled a muscle in my back, just to the right of the spine and under my shoulder blade.
I only work out for fitness, no intention of building muscle, maybe a bit of definition but it's all about being healthy and fit for me. Always do 40-60 min aerobic first then 30-40 mins of light weights and maybe a few machines afterwards.
Just wondering if anybody can tell me why it's so much harder with the bench flat and possibly what I'm doing wrong ? I've never lifted enough weight to pull a muscle before, always warned up and stretched first.
Last year I used to do this with 26Kg in each hand, bit difficult but usually managed 3 sets of 12, maybe cutting 3rd set short at 8 or 9 on a bad day. I used to do this with the bench at the first position up from being flat, so maybe 15 or 20 degree slope. I could have done 28 or possibly a couple of short sets at 30 on a very good day.
This year, after a break at the end of last year, but now with the bench flat, no slope at all (on the recommendation of one of the trainers) I'm struggling to do 18Kg and only once managed 1 set of 8 at 20Kg each hand. This is after a few months getting back into it.
I've also just pulled a muscle in my back, just to the right of the spine and under my shoulder blade.
I only work out for fitness, no intention of building muscle, maybe a bit of definition but it's all about being healthy and fit for me. Always do 40-60 min aerobic first then 30-40 mins of light weights and maybe a few machines afterwards.
Just wondering if anybody can tell me why it's so much harder with the bench flat and possibly what I'm doing wrong ? I've never lifted enough weight to pull a muscle before, always warned up and stretched first.
Flat press is usually easier than incline, although on the first notch is not a large degree of incline. It could be one of two things.
One: In the time off you have lost strength, and need to build this back up again.
Two: You were arching your back significantly on the incline, practically leveling your chest by picking your hips/waist up. This would have made the incline list easier than if you were doing it properly.
One: In the time off you have lost strength, and need to build this back up again.
Two: You were arching your back significantly on the incline, practically leveling your chest by picking your hips/waist up. This would have made the incline list easier than if you were doing it properly.
Funnily enough, I've always found a small degree of incline is my strongest point.
Anyway, chances are you have lost strength and were possibly compromising technique as the above post.
Don't worry about it though, focus on performing the move correctly with good form.
I'd also personally say leave the twist out. Either use a straight press (bench press style wrists facing towards your feet), or do flies with your wrist facing in over. IMO the twist brings no benefit but adds risk by putting strain on the smaller muscles in your shoulders.
Anyway, chances are you have lost strength and were possibly compromising technique as the above post.
Don't worry about it though, focus on performing the move correctly with good form.
I'd also personally say leave the twist out. Either use a straight press (bench press style wrists facing towards your feet), or do flies with your wrist facing in over. IMO the twist brings no benefit but adds risk by putting strain on the smaller muscles in your shoulders.
Another possible reason for your poor dumbbell press is a pre existing back injury,to your lats.
The lats are the antagonist to your pecs agonist and are responsible for help in the bottom part of the press.(from where your chest is stretched)
The fact that you have injured what sounds like your lats suggests some weakness in the area..personally I'd look into that.
Most people are stronger with a flat bench lift because of lats involvement and also more pecs and less delts are used.
The lats are the antagonist to your pecs agonist and are responsible for help in the bottom part of the press.(from where your chest is stretched)
The fact that you have injured what sounds like your lats suggests some weakness in the area..personally I'd look into that.
Most people are stronger with a flat bench lift because of lats involvement and also more pecs and less delts are used.
I agree with the above and would like to add it's a bad idea doing weights after cardio training.
It's very difficult to perform sets properly with already tired muscles and this often leads to injury from poor form.
Also it worth varying the type of bench press you do so if you've been performing a dumbell bench its worth using a bar.
It's very difficult to perform sets properly with already tired muscles and this often leads to injury from poor form.
Also it worth varying the type of bench press you do so if you've been performing a dumbell bench its worth using a bar.
Maybe a tiny bit OT, but I had the same issue. I was using 34kg bells everyday for ages,. Then I hurt my neck (burst vertebrae) and stopped going for say 6 months. First day back in thought I'd warm up a bit with the 16kgs first, before cracking on with the big boys.......I dropped the 16kg...couldn't even move it with my right arm. Got the 'ump and left the gym!
Sure you were using 34kg and not 34lb previously?
34kg to not managing 16kg seems a big drop.
I'm struggling at the moment; currently lifting 32kg when just before christmas I was lifting 38kg.
I have dropped 2stone and mainly concentrating on running though.
It happens, important thing is to keep at it and keep the form right, too many people can't take dropping their weights for whatever reason and struggling on with poor form resulting in no progress, or worse... injury.
34kg to not managing 16kg seems a big drop.
I'm struggling at the moment; currently lifting 32kg when just before christmas I was lifting 38kg.
I have dropped 2stone and mainly concentrating on running though.
It happens, important thing is to keep at it and keep the form right, too many people can't take dropping their weights for whatever reason and struggling on with poor form resulting in no progress, or worse... injury.
Chilli said:
Maybe a tiny bit OT, but I had the same issue. I was using 34kg bells everyday for ages,. Then I hurt my neck (burst vertebrae) and stopped going for say 6 months. First day back in thought I'd warm up a bit with the 16kgs first, before cracking on with the big boys.......I dropped the 16kg...couldn't even move it with my right arm. Got the 'ump and left the gym!
As said above, that's one heck of a drop in weight - 16kg's is no weight at all (I don't mean that to sound superior or anything...)Is there an underlying injury somewhere? Even after a 6 month sabbatical, if you were previously pressing 34kg 'bells, I definitely wouldn't expect you to fail to move a 16kg 'bell.
Chilli said:
Maybe a tiny bit OT, but I had the same issue. I was using 34kg bells everyday for ages,. Then I hurt my neck (burst vertebrae) and stopped going for say 6 months. First day back in thought I'd warm up a bit with the 16kgs first, before cracking on with the big boys.......I dropped the 16kg...couldn't even move it with my right arm. Got the 'ump and left the gym!
Possible cervical nerve damage.Very common with this kind of injury that an arm is affected.I'll bet your back/shoulder on the same side is weaker as well..may not be.Good news is it will get better.
Bad news it may take a year.
Use it or lose it. One of the basic rules of weight training. You've had something like 3 months off by the sounds of it. So to surprises you've lost strength.
Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
I had an interesting trip to the chiro some time ago to treat a shoulder injury, she found several issues with muscles which were sort of opposite the ones I was having problems with, a bit of manipulation (normally I'm very sceptical of this kind of thing)Back to the gym the next evening and the two exercises I was having problems with shoulder press and flyes (I was experiencing accute pain doing both and had no strength) were no longer a problem.
It was a revelation.
It was a revelation.
GMJ said:
Use it or lose it. One of the basic rules of weight training. You've had something like 3 months off by the sounds of it. So to surprises you've lost strength.
Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
And yet his incline press is stronger than his flat press..Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
goldblum said:
GMJ said:
Use it or lose it. One of the basic rules of weight training. You've had something like 3 months off by the sounds of it. So to surprises you've lost strength.
Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
And yet his incline press is stronger than his flat press..Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
Use it or lose it.
GMJ said:
Use it or lose it. One of the basic rules of weight training.
^thisI found exactly the same thing when I stopped last year and had 6 months off. Unbelievable how much strength you lose from not training. You don't feel any weaker in yourself but the proof is there once you start again.
My bench press dropped about 20%-25% in that space of time, and even though the numbers weren't massive it is taking a hell of a lot of work to get back to where I was.
1) Loss of strength - Everybody's different. I also experience large loses in strength when I don't perform certain exercises for a period of time. It's callerd reversibility look it up.
2) Lats - Wow, the lats insert into the arm!!! That's a surprise. You have to take into consideration the direction of the weight. The lats pull weight towards you not push it away from you. Stabilisation comes from the deltoids, mid and lower traps, seratus anterior, rhomboids and rotator cuff muscles, in other words the muscles that stabilise the shoulder girdle and shoulder joint not the lats.
As you correctly pointed out earlier the lats are antagonists to the chest much the same as the tricep is the antagoinst to the bicep. In order for the agonist to do its job the antagonist has to relax. So the lats would be involved if you were standing upright and throwing a ball, for example, the ball would have to be drawn backwards by various muscles including the lats, thereby loading the pecs so the ball could be thrown at speed. However, lying on a bench the weight is acting downwards and the lats don't have to do anything as they no longer have to "pull" the weight.
If the lats were to contract as you pushed the weight up they would inhibit the pecs from doing their job.
I hope this helps.
Howver, if you have access to information that supports your argument then please point me in the right direction I'm always happy to learn something new and I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong.
As all ways I don't what to argue with you.
2) Lats - Wow, the lats insert into the arm!!! That's a surprise. You have to take into consideration the direction of the weight. The lats pull weight towards you not push it away from you. Stabilisation comes from the deltoids, mid and lower traps, seratus anterior, rhomboids and rotator cuff muscles, in other words the muscles that stabilise the shoulder girdle and shoulder joint not the lats.
As you correctly pointed out earlier the lats are antagonists to the chest much the same as the tricep is the antagoinst to the bicep. In order for the agonist to do its job the antagonist has to relax. So the lats would be involved if you were standing upright and throwing a ball, for example, the ball would have to be drawn backwards by various muscles including the lats, thereby loading the pecs so the ball could be thrown at speed. However, lying on a bench the weight is acting downwards and the lats don't have to do anything as they no longer have to "pull" the weight.
If the lats were to contract as you pushed the weight up they would inhibit the pecs from doing their job.
I hope this helps.
Howver, if you have access to information that supports your argument then please point me in the right direction I'm always happy to learn something new and I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong.
As all ways I don't what to argue with you.
GMJ said:
goldblum said:
GMJ said:
Use it or lose it. One of the basic rules of weight training. You've had something like 3 months off by the sounds of it. So to surprises you've lost strength.
Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
And yet his incline press is stronger than his flat press..Just as an aside, injury to your lats will not affect your bench press. But what you descibed sounds likes lower traps which could affect your shoulder girdle stability.
Use it or lose it.
Nevertheless you would not expect him to go from " I could have done 28 or possibly a couple of short sets at 30 on a very good day." to "I'm struggling
to do 18kg" and "This is after a few months getting back into it."
Bearing in mind his latest lifts are on flat bench this is a startling drop in strength and does not explain his inability to improve or reason for his
current torn back muscle.It's also worthwhile pointing out that no one has addressed the fact that the OP should,after "a few months getting back into it"
be easily back to his pre break weights,although maybe not rate of improvement.
Why the lats are important to flat benching:Anatomically the lats insert on the front of the humerus,not the back like most people think.When the front of the
humerus is behind the body (AS IT IS IN THE BOTTOM OF THE BENCH)contracting that muscle pulls the humerus back in line with the body (THE FIRST FEW
INCHES OF THE BENCH PRESS).So the lats help the beginning drive off the chest,as you 'flare' your lats benching in the same way as a lats 'pose'.
Normally if you bench and can't even budge your max off your chest,you have weak lats,for whatever reason.They also help keep your elbows tucked in.
TTYTT the best advice the OP could be given is to visit a good sports physio,and stop training whilst injured.
Flat bench is a different exercise to inclined and works different muscles. If you're not used to doing a certain exercise then the weight you can handle will be lessened because you will not be used to the positions. I've always been able to press bigger d/bs on inclined than flat because I found that the act of fully laying down with big d/bs hoisted at my shoulders (plus retaining some energy to sit up and replace them on the floor) restricted the weight I could handle. Not by 50%, though, I think for inclines and shoulder press I was using 90 - 100lb and for flat 75 - 80lb.
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