Bulking up....

[minerva]

I have a choice between two routines that I have found. One is tried and tested by Dorian Yates (so it does work!) and the other, by Frankie NY, seems very popular on the bodybuilding forums...

yates first training split (after an initial 6 week period where he did full body workouts, just to learn the exercises and get to know his body) looked like this:

1983-1986

week 1:
Monday w1
Tuesday rest
Wednesday w2
Thursday rest
Friday rest
Saturday w1
Sunday rest

week 2:
Monday w2
Tuesday rest
Wednesday rest
Thursday w1
Friday rest
Saturday w2
Sunday rest

workout one (w1)

bench press 3x8
incline press 3x8
incline flyes 2x8-10
chins/pulldowns 3x8
barbell rows 3x8
deadlifts 3x8
behind the neck press 3x8
side laterals 2x8
bent laterals 2x8
crunches 3xmax
hanging leg raises 3xmax

workout two (w2)

barbell squats 4x8
hack squats 3x8
leg curls 3x8
standing calf raises 3x8
barbell curls 3x8
one-arm preacher curls 2x8
triceps pushdowns 3x8
lying triceps extensions 2x8

duration: approximately 60 min/workout.

This is the other one, done in the 5x5 pattern

DAY 1 – PULL

Deadlifts or Power Cleans
Barbell Rows, Dumbbell Rows, or Wide Grip Chins
Barbell Curls, Close Grip Underhand Chins, or Hammer Curls

DAY 2 – PUSH

Incline or Flat Barbell or Dumbbell Bench Press
Barbell or Dumbbell Shoulder Presses
Tricep Dips or Close Grip Bench Press

DAY 3 – LEGS
Front or Back Squats
Barbell or Dumbbell Stiff Leg Deadlifts
Calf Raises (3x12) - only if a seriously lagging bodypart
Weighted Crunches or Weighted Hanging Leg Raises (3x12)


Leading to:

WORKOUT 1

Front Squats, Back Squats, or Overhead Squats
Dumbbell Bench Press or Barbell Bench Press
Barbell Rows or Dumbbell Rows
Barbell Curls, Dumbbell Curls, or Close Grip Underhand Chins
Grip or Ab Exercise

WORKOUT 2

Barbell or Dumbbell Overhead Presses
Deadlifts, Stiff Leg Deadlifts, Rack Pulls, or Power Cleans
Dips
Wide Grip Chins
Grip or Ab Exercise


Does anyone have any ideas/experience of these?

[didelydoo]

I'm not a fan of body building routines- have a look at post 6, page 39 on the 'What training are you doing/have done today?' for my take.

5x5 is always good though.

Edited by didelydoo on Saturday 12th February 23:34

[Lost_BMW]

From my experience (of all sorts . . wasted times!) I'm pretty sure the 5 x 5 type will make you stronger - quicker and 'more' so.

Whether it will make you 'bigger' not so sure.

[mcelliott]

Yeah tried the exact same work out back in 1992, after 3 months I still didn't look like Yates, so I gave up. Hope that helps.

[CHIEF]

These bodybuilding routines are complete bks.

Kids read this crap in Flex magazine hit the gym and do these routines, chuck down a few protein shakes and wonder why they dont look like Yates/Sombaty/Wheeler in six months (Sorry i only remember the 90's)

To gain strength do 2-3 days a week absolute max with each workout no more than 40-50 minutes, do not do too many sets, do your warm up sets and then your working sets from there on only, keep these at 2, keep your protein consistantly high and you will get stronger.

Genetics and drug use play a big part also, but that is opening a whole new can of worms.

[ukwill]

CHIEF said:

These bodybuilding routines are complete bks.

Kids read this crap in Flex magazine hit the gym and do these routines, chuck down a few protein shakes and wonder why they dont look like Yates/Sombaty/Wheeler in six months (Sorry i only remember the 90's)

To gain strength do 2-3 days a week absolute max with each workout no more than 40-50 minutes, do not do too many sets, do your warm up sets and then your working sets from there on only, keep these at 2, keep your protein consistantly high and you will get stronger.

Genetics and drug use play a big part also, but that is opening a whole new can of worms.

^^^^^ This. Keep it short, stick to compounds only and eat twice whatever you do now. (as a rough estimate).

[didelydoo]

CHIEF said:

These bodybuilding routines are complete bks.

Kids read this crap in Flex magazine hit the gym and do these routines, chuck down a few protein shakes and wonder why they dont look like Yates/Sombaty/Wheeler in six months (Sorry i only remember the 90's)

To gain strength do 2-3 days a week absolute max with each workout no more than 40-50 minutes, do not do too many sets, do your warm up sets and then your working sets from there on only, keep these at 2, keep your protein consistantly high and you will get stronger.

Genetics and drug use play a big part also, but that is opening a whole new can of worms.

I disagree, I don't think 80mins to 2.1/2 hours a week is any where near optimum to gain strength. Generally, one of my sessions will last 80mins. Though I do agree with the first and last part of what you said.

[ukwill]

didelydoo said:

I disagree, I don't think 80mins to 2.1/2 hours a week is any where near optimum to gain strength. Generally, one of my sessions will last 80mins. Though I do agree with the first and last part of what you said.

The science says otherwise. After about 45m of doing heavy weights your cortisol levels will increase. If you choose to continue doing heavy weights after this time you'll only serve to inhibit your progression. (Cortisol is catabolic).

The trainer I use has devised a workout that takes 30m. He's a very big bloke.

[didelydoo]

ukwill said:

The science says otherwise. After about 45m of doing heavy weights your cortisol levels will increase. If you choose to continue doing heavy weights after this time you'll only serve to inhibit your progression. (Cortisol is catabolic).

The trainer I use has devised a workout that takes 30m. He's a very big bloke.

Don't really know of any strength athletes (or indeed any athletes) that do 2 or 3 45 minute sessions per week. Indeed many train for hours every day.

I'm sure squatting for 40 mins then pressing for 40mins won't make you weaker than squatting for 20 then pressing for 20.

I couldn't even fit a squat session in to 30 minutes. (warm up, work sets, appropriate rest between sets etc)

[ukwill]

didelydoo said:

Don't really know of any strength athletes (or indeed any athletes) that do 2 or 3 45 minute sessions per week. Indeed many train for hours every day.

I'm sure squatting for 40 mins then pressing for 40mins won't make you weaker than squatting for 20 then pressing for 20.

I couldn't even fit a squat session in to 30 minutes. (warm up, work sets, appropriate rest between sets etc)

There have been numerous scientific studies regarding exercise.

Here's a few that might be of interest: http://www.collegesportsscholarships.com/frequency...

Edited by ukwill on Sunday 13th February 18:11

[CHIEF]

didelydoo said:

I disagree, I don't think 80mins to 2.1/2 hours a week is any where near optimum to gain strength. Generally, one of my sessions will last 80mins. Though I do agree with the first and last part of what you said.

Well it works for me, I have always been drug free and i have noticed a massive difference since i've reduced my workout time.

Too many people do too many days and sit there half heartedley churning out set after set rep after rep, i was one of them and for me anyway it was the wrong way to go.

This is how i train: Chest day i do say bench press, i'll warm up and do 2-3 warm up sets then hit 2 heavy sets, set 4 will be around 6 reps if i can go higher i'll knock up the weight, set 5 will be 4 reps max, again if i can get more the weight goes up.

After this i'll do dumbell incline presses or flyes, now because my chest is nice and warmed up i only need do 2 sets and these will be heavy sets to failure.

I've been back at the gym 6 months after a 2 year layoff, pretty much lost almost if not all my strength, in six months i've put 40 kilo's on my bench by following this 'short, sharp, shock, routine and whilst i dont profess to be some strength athelete my strength has gone right up in the last 6 months.

I'm out of the gym inside 40-45 minutes, still what works for me might not work for some but by doing this and not wasting my time and energy farting about with too many exercises and sets i've increased my strength significantly.

Looking forward to my 500 pound bench very soon.

[minerva]

All,

Thank you very much for your replies. I believe that common consensus is:

1) stick to compounds
2) train for more than 40 minutes but less than 60 minutes, more than once but fewer than four (that'll be 2 or 3, then!) times a week
3) keep the enjoyment up and the intensity high.
4) eat lots!

my BMR calculation tells me that to inverse my mass from 112 to 120kg, I should be eating 4400kcals a day, which is actually quite difficult to do unless going for high fat foods.

CHIEF, you said in your above post that you had lost nearly all of your stengthafter two years and had got it back after six months. You also said that you have gone up 40kilos in that time and you were looking forward to a 500lb bench soon. By my reckoning then, as a beginner, you walked into the gym, loaded the bar with 4 plates either side and got at least one rep? (500/2.2=227-40=180(ish)-20(bar)=160/20=8/2= 4 plates.

In the nicest possible way, that makes you a bit of a natural freak in my book.

[okgo]

All very well rubbishing everything... Did you stop and look at frankies program? It's basically exactly what you lot are actually suggesting he do.

I have been doing that routine over the years, not really bothered about it now as I am into other sports.

But I doubled my deadlift on that routine. Bench press went up about 30kg, sqaut up 50kg all in a few months. It works.

[ukwill]

minerva said:

All,

Thank you very much for your replies. I believe that common consensus is:

1) stick to compounds
2) train for more than 40 minutes but less than 60 minutes, more than once but fewer than four (that'll be 2 or 3, then!) times a week
3) keep the enjoyment up and the intensity high.
4) eat lots!

my BMR calculation tells me that to inverse my mass from 112 to 120kg, I should be eating 4400kcals a day, which is actually quite difficult to do unless going for high fat foods.

CHIEF, you said in your above post that you had lost nearly all of your stengthafter two years and had got it back after six months. You also said that you have gone up 40kilos in that time and you were looking forward to a 500lb bench soon. By my reckoning then, as a beginner, you walked into the gym, loaded the bar with 4 plates either side and got at least one rep? (500/2.2=227-40=180(ish)-20(bar)=160/20=8/2= 4 plates.

In the nicest possible way, that makes you a bit of a natural freak in my book.

I think if you stick to those 4 points you will be very happy.

Regarding getting 4400cals a day in. I know what you mean. Clean bulking several thousand cals per day is bloody hard (I found it impossible). Add a couple of decent gainer shakes in (morning/night), with s/skimmed milk, and you at least halve that, making it a fair bit easier. Face up to it - you will increase your bodyfat by bulking!

[CHIEF]

minerva said:

You also said that you have gone up 40kilos in that time and you were looking forward to a 500lb bench soon. By my reckoning then, as a beginner, you walked into the gym, loaded the bar with 4 plates either side and got at least one rep? (500/2.2=227-40=180(ish)-20(bar)=160/20=8/2= 4 plates.

In the nicest possible way, that makes you a bit of a natural freak in my book.

Sorry lack of smilies there, i was taking the pee where it comes to benching 500, 300 ish maybe but for me anyway 500 is a long way off i suspect. :-(

[didelydoo]

Each to their own, the way I train works well for me so i'll stick at it. I do 2 or 3 compound movements a session, no farting around, just hard work.

To the OP, don't over think it, if you put in the graft on any program you'll reap the rewards.

Edited by didelydoo on Monday 14th February 13:21

[ukwill]

didelydoo said:

Each to their own, the way I train works well for me so i'll stick at it. I do 2 or 3 compound movements a session, no farting around, just hard work.

To the OP, don't over think it, if you put in the graft on any program you'll reap the rewards.

Edited by didelydoo on Monday 14th February 13:21

Yes you would - to an extent. But the whole point is using knowledge to make the best decisions.

Research into Cortisol has shown that extended periods of weight training is a bad thing. Sure you might still make gains, but you could be making much better gains!

[didelydoo]

ukwill said:

Yes you would - to an extent. But the whole point is using knowledge to make the best decisions.

Research into Cortisol has shown that extended periods of weight training is a bad thing. Sure you might still make gains, but you could be making much better gains!

Perhaps, but Olympic lifters, for example, do not follow your advice. They are among the strongest pound for pound people around. Have a look at some of the eastern Block routines for instance.

You will simply not get anywhere close to elite level training less than 3 hours a week. It's enough to progress IME, but you get out what you put in. I simply would not be able to fit in what I need to do each week in to 3 hours, lets alone 3x 30min sessions. It depends what you aspire to become.

I'm by no means that strong, but I intend to be.

Edited to add- I've made progress training 1 hour at a time 4 times a week, but made a lot more progress training 80mins a time 4 times a week. I also made excellent progress training everyday for an extended period, though don't have the time to keep this up.

Edited by didelydoo on Monday 14th February 22:37

[Lost_BMW]

Didley, on average - if you have such a thing! - and across the main exercises/ body part targets, how many work sets do you do per session/exercise/body area? Or per week.

Are all work sets to failure or, as I suspect, based on set reps for a given % of 1 rep maximums?

[didelydoo]

Lost_BMW said:

Didley, on average - if you have such a thing! - and across the main exercises/ body part targets, how many work sets do you do per session/exercise/body area? Or per week.

Are all work sets to failure or, as I suspect, based on set reps for a given % of 1 rep maximums?

It changes from month to month but at the moment I'm doing 5's- either 5x5 or 3x5. I'll squat twice a week (one highbar/narrow stance, one lowbar wide stance); Deadlift once a week (stiff leg at present); Cleans twice a week (one just cleans the other clean & press); Pressing 2 or 3 times a week; upperback/chins etc once a week and then events at the weekend. Usually do two or three of the above in each session

For 5's the weight sits around 85% of my last tested max, creeping up maybe 2.5kg-5kg per week. I try not to do sets to failure, though it runs close on the last set sometimes.

Prior to this I was working up to a daily max then doing a few back off sets. Prior to that I trained almost every day. Prior to that was Smolov. 3's before that and 531 before that. Nothing works forever.

At the moment i'll look at 4 or 8 week blocks and have a target to reach with in that time (all based on targets for the year)

I mix up my training alot as it keeps it interesting. However, as i'd said before, I'm no expert and I'm still fairly weak in my feild, though I am making reasonable progress.