Strength - best routine(s) for producing such?

[Lost_BMW]

Lot's of threads on here about training which usually seem to fall into two types. One is where the poster - often new to training - wants to lose weight, gain fitness and maybe some 'tone', and the other similar but where the OP wants to 'bulk up', so the responses tend to fit these aims.

Occasionally strength will be mentioned with reference to 5x5 etc. but relatively rare in comparison to the above.

Now, there's obviously a fair number of professionals, experienced and serious trainers on here so I'd be interested to hear what folk think is the best way/ a good routine for gaining strength - serious, big! (and what is this?) strength - but without (unless inevitable?) gaining bulk, weight, even muscle size etc.

Over to you . . .

[ShadownINja]

Amateur response: I've found the best way to develop strength was by doing something that requires the strength. In my case, I decided to do rock climbing. I am doing things I couldn't have done before - like pulling my body up with just 2 or 3 fingers with my feet pressing against a wall like a cat climbing a fence or just pulling up with my hands and then reaching a hold above my hands, essentially climbing like a monkey might.

Edited by ShadownINja on Tuesday 12th October 23:36

[Lost_BMW]

ShadownINja said:

Amateur response: I've found the best way to develop strength was by doing something that requires the strength. In my case, I decided to do rock climbing. I am doing things I couldn't have done before - like pulling my body up with just 2 or 3 fingers with my feet pressing against a wall like a cat climbing a fence.

That was quick!

Trouble is my aim is increased strength for hitting folk! Or throwing them round like rag dolls. Or tearing limbs off etc.

All noble stuff of course but a bit hard to train for by 'doing' - unless I could convince some of the unemployed to be cannon foder for a stipend?

[Lost_BMW]

On a more serious note I know there are ways (but have been learning new ones all the time) to gain fight specific strength but thought it would be interesting to hear from the regulars here anyway.

TBH part of my interest is 'anorak interest' as someone fascinated by the practice and science of training, strength production etc. what with all the variables and conflicting ideas; just an intriguing area.

[ShadownINja]

I saw a youtube vid with some MMAer using a kettle bell - google "the turkish get up".

I suspect building your core plus technique has a lot to do with it but you could always train with ankle and wrist weights plus use free-weights to work the muscles.

Additionally, you could take up gymnastics. I always have images of a 30-something martial artist standing in a line of 7 year old girls when ever I think of gymnastics for adults. (Ignoring the obvious paedo aspect.) I'd be embarrassed especially as those kids would probably be better at it. What I would like to train with is those gym rings.

Edited by ShadownINja on Tuesday 12th October 23:48

[Lost_BMW]

ShadownINja said:

I saw a youtube vid with some MMAer using a kettle bell - google "the turkish get up".

I suspect building your core plus technique has a lot to do with it but you could always train with ankle and wrist weights plus use free-weights to work the muscles.

Additionally, you could take up gymnastics. I always have images of a 30-something martial artist standing in a line of 7 year old girls when ever I think of gymnastics for adults. (Ignoring the obvious paedo aspect.) I'd be embarrassed especially as those kids would probably be better at it. What I would like to train with is those gym rings.

Edited by ShadownINja on Tuesday 12th October 23:48

Mmnn.. attending 'gym kids'? Should help fast track me to the prison weight room!

Too old and heavy for ring work - wish I'd done that sort of stuff and more rope work years back.

I do some kettlebell and Powerbag stuff but the 'bell I was advised to start with is too light at 12Kg for most stuff, though the 'get ups' evil for someone my weight even without one. Core work is my main training now, centred on deadlifts, shrugs, high pulls + Grappler work like 'landmines' supplemented by bent over rows, bent laterals, standing press and push ups.

Edited by Lost_BMW on Wednesday 13th October 18:11

[Lawsome]

Personally i did "Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength" when i first started:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712...

Decent write up there. You can google the exercises to see form and such. The whole routine takes about 30 minutes in total and you only do it 3 days a week. Can't argue with that.

I had massive emprovements to my strength. Very impressed.

[Lost_BMW]

Lawsome said:

Personally i did "Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength" when i first started:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=712...

Decent write up there. You can google the exercises to see form and such. The whole routine takes about 30 minutes in total and you only do it 3 days a week. Can't argue with that.

I had massive emprovements to my strength. Very impressed.

I've seen that post before - some similarities with my current work; core, compound lifts, few sets, lowish reps.

What sort of % gains did you make in what timescale?

[Phooey]

I would say 5x5, whereas you choose a weight that you can lift for a 1 set *maximum* of 5 reps, then use that same weight *untill* you can complete 5 sets of 5 reps. Once you can manage 5x5, up the weight very slightly and set the challenge again . I think it has a lot to do with the Psychology of setting yourself that challenge too.

e.g. 1 set max for 5 reps = 80kg on bench press

1st set you will/have to do 5 reps
2nd set you might get 5 reps (possibly 4 though)
3rd set you may only get 4 reps
4th set you may only do 3 or 4 reps
5th set you may only get 2 or 3 reps

Stick with this untill you complete 5 sets of 5 clean reps (that means no forced reps or assistance from a training buddy)

Once you achieve 5x5, next training session add 5kg to the bench, and do it all again


I have to confess, it is a bit heavy and taxing on the body though. I am having trouble sticking with it

[Lost_BMW]

Phooey said:

I would say 5x5, whereas you choose a weight that you can lift for a 1 set *maximum* of 5 reps, then use that same weight *untill* you can complete 5 sets of 5 reps. Once you can manage 5x5, up the weight very slightly and set the challenge again . I think it has a lot to do with the Psychology of setting yourself that challenge too.

e.g. 1 set max for 5 reps = 80kg on bench press

1st set you will/have to do 5 reps
2nd set you might get 5 reps (possibly 4 though)
3rd set you may only get 4 reps
4th set you may only do 3 or 4 reps
5th set you may only get 2 or 3 reps

Stick with this untill you complete 5 sets of 5 clean reps (that means no forced reps or assistance from a training buddy)

Once you achieve 5x5, next training session add 5kg to the bench, and do it all again


I have to confess, it is a bit heavy and taxing on the body though. I am having trouble sticking with it

I've done 3 x 5s and 5 x 5s before, though reps vary unless - and this is a common bit in powerlifting texts - the 5 is a set % of 1 rep max and not necessarily to failure, esp. on the 1st set or two.

I did that about 10 years ago after a layoff of maybe 2 years and got my bench press back up - muscle memory etc. too - by around 120lb per 5 reps in, from memory, just 2 or 3 months - back to within c. 20% of previous best.

[alfa pint]

Phooey said:

I would say 5x5, whereas you choose a weight that you can lift for a 1 set *maximum* of 5 reps, then use that same weight *untill* you can complete 5 sets of 5 reps. Once you can manage 5x5, up the weight very slightly and set the challenge again . I think it has a lot to do with the Psychology of setting yourself that challenge too.

e.g. 1 set max for 5 reps = 80kg on bench press

1st set you will/have to do 5 reps
2nd set you might get 5 reps (possibly 4 though)
3rd set you may only get 4 reps
4th set you may only do 3 or 4 reps
5th set you may only get 2 or 3 reps

Stick with this untill you complete 5 sets of 5 clean reps (that means no forced reps or assistance from a training buddy)

Once you achieve 5x5, next training session add 5kg to the bench, and do it all again


I have to confess, it is a bit heavy and taxing on the body though. I am having trouble sticking with it

This is a very good strength routine, mainly used by rugby forwards, so they have very similar aims in mind to you OP!

I would like to add that technique is key to all of this - for strength, you should be doing the reps VERY slowly. None of this poseur in the gym thrusting away like a bunny in heat stuff - you should be doing each movement over several seconds, a sort of tortoise shagging pace. You'll also need to add in a lot of recovery time in between sets, sort of 2-3 mins, rather than the usual minute if you're lucky. The best way to do this is to do supersets - pick out 3 different exercises (arms/ shoulders / back, abs and legs and do a set of each in turn. The muscles you've just hit can then recover while you target another one. You should be able to do about 3 sets of supersets per session.

[Lost_BMW]

alfa pint said:

Phooey said:

I would say 5x5, whereas you choose a weight that you can lift for a 1 set *maximum* of 5 reps, then use that same weight *untill* you can complete 5 sets of 5 reps. Once you can manage 5x5, up the weight very slightly and set the challenge again . I think it has a lot to do with the Psychology of setting yourself that challenge too.

e.g. 1 set max for 5 reps = 80kg on bench press

1st set you will/have to do 5 reps
2nd set you might get 5 reps (possibly 4 though)
3rd set you may only get 4 reps
4th set you may only do 3 or 4 reps
5th set you may only get 2 or 3 reps

Stick with this untill you complete 5 sets of 5 clean reps (that means no forced reps or assistance from a training buddy)

Once you achieve 5x5, next training session add 5kg to the bench, and do it all again


I have to confess, it is a bit heavy and taxing on the body though. I am having trouble sticking with it

This is a very good strength routine, mainly used by rugby forwards, so they have very similar aims in mind to you OP!

I would like to add that technique is key to all of this - for strength, you should be doing the reps VERY slowly. None of this poseur in the gym thrusting away like a bunny in heat stuff - you should be doing each movement over several seconds, a sort of tortoise shagging pace. You'll also need to add in a lot of recovery time in between sets, sort of 2-3 mins, rather than the usual minute if you're lucky. The best way to do this is to do supersets - pick out 3 different exercises (arms/ shoulders / back, abs and legs and do a set of each in turn. The muscles you've just hit can then recover while you target another one. You should be able to do about 3 sets of supersets per session.

Now this - the speed of rep bit - is what still puzzles me. Previously I'd do them at a medium pace except for when I had short periods of doing a Mentzer based routine. But then there's so much stuff written lately that training slow makes you slow etc. and is only good for static and slow rate development strength - e.g. written by MMA trainers.

On the other hand there is the stuff about periodizing, so build a base of absolute strength through heavy low rep stuff where the reps will tend to be slow (though many argue that the intention on the positive part should be fast/explosive - just that the weight won't actually allow this) then a period of faster reps with either lighter weights or deliberately not doing as many as possible but keeping the 3 or so as fast as possible.

Or heavy low rep sets of say Bench Press followed by plyos like hand clap push ups - which I've also tried.

The theory I've read lately suggests the typical 12 to 20 reps or higher athletes like boxers tend to use is actually the best way of making you slow! Now I tend to do the negative at a moderate, controlled, pace and the positive explosively.

As I said, one of the reasons for the interest is the many conflicting ideas => good to hear from people who've stuck to a type of routine and can say how it worked for them in comparison to others.

Edited by Lost_BMW on Wednesday 13th October 18:14

[Morba]

Sounds like you want functional strength. I'd be leaning towards plyometrics, speed sets and find somewhere with some strongman equipment.

[Lost_BMW]

Morba said:

Sounds like you want functional strength. I'd be leaning towards plyometrics, speed sets and find somewhere with some strongman equipment.

Partly is to add ideas to a change up but partly just out of interest in opinions/experience. Thoughtthis could get to be an interesting thread given the number of serious trainerson Ph.

I train at home in a garage - fully matted floor, with Judo style Tatami mats - and have 4 Olympic bars from 7' to 5' + EZ bar, Grappler set with 2 bars (the 7' Olympic used usually) Trap Bar (for deadlift, bent rows, hang pulls, shrugs and Farmer's Walk), medicine balls from 5 through 10Kg including a 7Kg Tornado Ball, 20Kg Powerbag and 45Kg per hand selectorised dumbell set which is too light for everything I like (e.g. sometimes do single arm row using a 5 foot Olympic bar trying to get the grip exactly in the middle! Does work well though . .) but money and space were issues when I moved here in May.

Would love to add a Prowler and a bloody big tractor tyre next!

[Morba]

get some atlas stones and some farmers walk handles.
i've got 2 stones at home (yet to lift the 140!) and will be getting some handles in the new year.

[Fatman2]

Lost_BMW said:

Lot's of threads on here about training which usually seem to fall into two types. One is where the poster - often new to training - wants to lose weight, gain fitness and maybe some 'tone', and the other similar but where the OP wants to 'bulk up', so the responses tend to fit these aims.

Occasionally strength will be mentioned with reference to 5x5 etc. but relatively rare in comparison to the above.

Now, there's obviously a fair number of professionals, experienced and serious trainers on here so I'd be interested to hear what folk think is the best way/ a good routine for gaining strength - serious, big! (and what is this?) strength - but without (unless inevitable?) gaining bulk, weight, even muscle size etc.

Over to you . . .

I'm no expert but from my experience there is a difference between weight loss, bulking and strength so training tends to be specific to these goals.

I have tried training for outright strength in the past but have found that it buggers me up so can't do as much in the gym as what I would like. As I lifted heavier I found recovery times were too long. Also I like to do at least 6 different exercises per session and doing all these to the max is too much for a small man like myself (yeah I'm a bit weedy ).

As I'm a total poser I now prefer to work out partially for looks but also for some functional strength i.e. football, cycling (debatable), cross country obstacle races and more latterly kickboxing. Thus in some ways it doesn't pay to be ultra strong but able to lift bodyweight etc.

Sounds like you've already done some hardcore lifting and have an impressive array of equipment.

I have to say if I had my time again I'd like to have got into gymnastics from an early age. Some of that floor, beam, horse and ring work is serious stuff.

[GMJ]

I'd just like to comment on the speed of the reps/sets. When training for pure strength you are using your fast twitch fibres and the creatine phosphate energy system. This system can only supply energy for a very short amount of time before the body starts using the lactate energy system (Body builders work predominately in this system). So in strength training your set should only last for a maximum of 25-30 seconds. Therefore, if you're performing 5 reps each rep should only take 5 to 6 seconds. I recommend 3 down, 2 up.

The movement on the up or eccentric phase should be explosive in nature but the heavy weight is going to make it slow.

Consider what the OP wants to use the strength for (MMA by the looks of it) then I'd follow a 2-3 months strength training phase with a power training phase.

Ideally, as you have a functional goal, I'd look at the movement patterns you wish to become stronger in and find exercises that replicate those movements. For example "throwing a punch" requires stability, strength and power generated from the transverse plane of movement. Therefore, exercises such as russian twist, cable rotations, cable push with rotation, are all good and add in some rotational med ball throws during a power phase. Happy days.

[goldblum]

GMJ said:

I'd just like to comment on the speed of the reps/sets. When training for pure strength you are using your fast twitch fibres and the creatine phosphate energy system. This system can only supply energy for a very short amount of time before the body starts using the lactate energy system (Body builders work predominately in this system). So in strength training your set should only last for a maximum of 25-30 seconds. Therefore, if you're performing 5 reps each rep should only take 5 to 6 seconds. I recommend 3 down, 2 up.

The movement on the up or eccentric phase should be explosive in nature but the heavy weight is going to make it slow.

Consider what the OP wants to use the strength for (MMA by the looks of it) then I'd follow a 2-3 months strength training phase with a power training phase.

Ideally, as you have a functional goal, I'd look at the movement patterns you wish to become stronger in and find exercises that replicate those movements. For example "throwing a punch" requires stability, strength and power generated from the transverse plane of movement. Therefore, exercises such as russian twist, cable rotations, cable push with rotation, are all good and add in some rotational med ball throws during a power phase. Happy days.

Agree with this.Make sure your spotter knows what they're doing and don't worry too much about a bit of cheating.

Power up,slow ish down and make it HEAVY.Key to the whole process is white (fast twitch) muscle fibre stimulation.

Edited by goldblum on Wednesday 13th October 14:54

[Lost_BMW]

Following the two posts above - yes, I've considered the energy system patterns, though did feel good last year doing interval training with Powerbag, medicine balls and weights where sets could be 30 seconds to 1 minute with 15s, 30s or 60 s rest periods.

Apparently this also helps create changes in the levels of enzymes involved in the energy systems, and the way they are handled by the body, that slow down and partially mask the negative effect of early lactic acid onset. It is said that Randy Couture has hit on training that has given him huge advantages in this regard - to the point where his response to extreme stress in workouts is better than top level athletes half his age (by blood test etc.)

Weight range wise I've read a lot that suggests the fast twitch fibres are recruited maximally by very heavy (therefore low rep) weights that will necessarily move slowly, but that the intention should be to try to move it as fast as possible. That's the style I use on many things, but don't risk it on deadlifts!

Re. the plane of motion I do twists, throws etc. with weights, cables, a kettelebell (a lot for hip motion) and balls - esp. the Tornado ball - as you describe, often mimicking the patterns of punching/pushing etc.

With barbells I do more standing work and at different planes than I used to. So for example presses horizontally with a 5' bar (often done delivered from a punching stance, even jabbing with the empty hand 1st when using one bar, then following with a 'loaded' power shot) or at an angle (not straight up and down as usual) using the 7' bars in the Grappler (best tool I've ever used bar none - a fantastic find). I vary between one and two handed and with the latter also do sets with feet in line too. Using really heavy weights at these angles, like for shoulder presses, e.g. 220lb, is great for core and stability as it takes so much effort/balance just to maintain body postion let alone to do the pressing out part. The emphasis on standing also helps make sure I'm pushing through the floor and using that 'kinetic chain' the triple extension from ankles, lower body/hips to delivery of hand or foot that trainers talk about, as when punching & kicking.

Periodisation is in my mind too - having sorted a new gym after a dodgy period from Feb to August I worked on getting some lost strength back, usually doing weights twice a week and on a low-low-high rep scheme (e.g. for 3 similar workouts). Now I'm wondering whether to cut back on the weight and do more and faster sets as part of a weight loss strategy or to move to an absolute focus on strength for the next few weeks, then a power/speed-srength pahse then the endurance/cutting phase at the start of spring (which was how most training was from the summer of 2009 until last December.

Decisions, decisions! But thanks, keep it coming - it's all interesting stuff.

[Meatball]

Sorry ive not read a the whole thread but i get the jest of what your asking,

A couple of gym drills we do.

Im assuming your talking about in the weights gym? for striking try a light set of dumbells in your hands eg 3kg and punch 100 reps nice and tight from your guard and then go straight to the standing push press with a weight for 8-10 reps then back to the dumbells again for 50 reps for 4 sets

For grappling try rotating a 20kg disc around your head (as low down as possible) if you do it 40 times you will know what im talking about, then sprawls on the spot for 30 seconds then dead lift for 6 reps with a heavy weight for 4 sets.

another one to try is sprawl chins 1 sprawl 1 chin as many as you can do for 4 sets (killers)

Theres nothing worse than being strong, but only for 10 seconds

Have fun