Four day split?
Discussion
I'm considering changing to a four day split.
So far a three day split has worked well but I quite fancy a change to see what difference it will make. It's based on Tom Venuto's BFFM program which has a good reputation and typically good results. The three day split has been:
1 - Chest, back, abs
2 - Quads, hams, calves
3 - Shoulders, biceps, triceps
Using his schedule a four day split would look something like:
1 - Shoulders, triceps, abs
2 - Back, calves
3 - Chest, biceps
4 - Quads, hams
This is probably what I'll use - however...
I'm interested to get views/opinions/experiences on working compound & related isolation exercises on the same day. Probably doesn't make sense but what I mean is work triceps before chest in the same workout, biceps before back, etc.. To me there are several ways of looking at this;
a - If I do the large, compound exercise(s) first I'll be fresh and be able to shift more iron then on to isolation exercises so for example bench press, incline db flyes, pec deck, triceps kick-back, triceps pushdowns.
b - Isolation first then onto compound so triceps kick-back, triceps pushdowns, bench press, incline db flyes, pec deck - i.e. exhaust the triceps first so the pecs get more emphasis(?).
c - Compound exercise mixed with unrelated isolation exercise(s) so for example combine chest with biceps instead of triceps and back with triceps instead of biceps IYSWIM? Deadlift, pull-ups, one-arm db row, triceps dips, triceps extension.
Pretty sure they all have their pros and cons but can't decide for myself - probably try one for a month then try the others...
So far a three day split has worked well but I quite fancy a change to see what difference it will make. It's based on Tom Venuto's BFFM program which has a good reputation and typically good results. The three day split has been:
1 - Chest, back, abs
2 - Quads, hams, calves
3 - Shoulders, biceps, triceps
Using his schedule a four day split would look something like:
1 - Shoulders, triceps, abs
2 - Back, calves
3 - Chest, biceps
4 - Quads, hams
This is probably what I'll use - however...
I'm interested to get views/opinions/experiences on working compound & related isolation exercises on the same day. Probably doesn't make sense but what I mean is work triceps before chest in the same workout, biceps before back, etc.. To me there are several ways of looking at this;
a - If I do the large, compound exercise(s) first I'll be fresh and be able to shift more iron then on to isolation exercises so for example bench press, incline db flyes, pec deck, triceps kick-back, triceps pushdowns.
b - Isolation first then onto compound so triceps kick-back, triceps pushdowns, bench press, incline db flyes, pec deck - i.e. exhaust the triceps first so the pecs get more emphasis(?).
c - Compound exercise mixed with unrelated isolation exercise(s) so for example combine chest with biceps instead of triceps and back with triceps instead of biceps IYSWIM? Deadlift, pull-ups, one-arm db row, triceps dips, triceps extension.
Pretty sure they all have their pros and cons but can't decide for myself - probably try one for a month then try the others...
I've always favoured doing related muscles together in a split routine.
ie shoulders - triceps - chest
Back n biceps etc
Of course mixing it up helps break out of a routine and suprises your body again.
So I would say try the related approach - or pre-exhaust. since shoulder, tricep muscles are used in bench press tiring these muscles targets the chest - as best I know.
ie shoulders - triceps - chest
Back n biceps etc
Of course mixing it up helps break out of a routine and suprises your body again.
So I would say try the related approach - or pre-exhaust. since shoulder, tricep muscles are used in bench press tiring these muscles targets the chest - as best I know.
rudecherub said:
I've always favoured doing related muscles together in a split routine.
ie shoulders - triceps - chest
Back n biceps etc
Of course mixing it up helps break out of a routine and suprises your body again.
So I would say try the related approach - or pre-exhaust. since shoulder, tricep muscles are used in bench press tiring these muscles targets the chest - as best I know.
yeah it does seem a bit mixed upie shoulders - triceps - chest
Back n biceps etc
Of course mixing it up helps break out of a routine and suprises your body again.
So I would say try the related approach - or pre-exhaust. since shoulder, tricep muscles are used in bench press tiring these muscles targets the chest - as best I know.
id be more inclined to do something like
1: Legs (squats, leg press, calf raises etc)
2: Chest & Tris (bench, incline DB, dips, flys etc)
3: Back & Bis (deadlifts, pullups, rows etc)
4: Shoulders (shrugs, cleans, OHP etc)
LordGrover said:
b - Isolation first then onto compound so triceps kick-back, triceps pushdowns, bench press, incline db flyes, pec deck - i.e. exhaust the triceps first so the pecs get more emphasis(?).
Triceps are auxiliary muscles for bench press, if you exhaust our auxiliary muscles before a lift you will not hit your primary muscles, and they will not get the benefit. Always work muscles in order of biggest first.samdale said:
rudecherub said:
I've always favoured doing related muscles together in a split routine.
ie shoulders - triceps - chest
Back n biceps etc
Of course mixing it up helps break out of a routine and suprises your body again.
So I would say try the related approach - or pre-exhaust. since shoulder, tricep muscles are used in bench press tiring these muscles targets the chest - as best I know.
yeah it does seem a bit mixed upie shoulders - triceps - chest
Back n biceps etc
Of course mixing it up helps break out of a routine and suprises your body again.
So I would say try the related approach - or pre-exhaust. since shoulder, tricep muscles are used in bench press tiring these muscles targets the chest - as best I know.
id be more inclined to do something like
1: Legs (squats, leg press, calf raises etc)
2: Chest & Tris (bench, incline DB, dips, flys etc)
3: Back & Bis (deadlifts, pullups, rows etc)
4: Shoulders (shrugs, cleans, OHP etc)
Righto. I'll go with the general consensus, mostly.
1. Quads & calves
2. Delts & traps
3. Back, bis & hams
4. Chest & tris
I'll fit in abs on a couple of days a week and forearms/wrists with either bis or tris.
I find quads take a lot out of me so don't think I can do hams justice on the same day which is why I've moved them to another workout. May move them to delts & traps to see if that's any better.
Thanks for input.
1. Quads & calves
2. Delts & traps
3. Back, bis & hams
4. Chest & tris
I'll fit in abs on a couple of days a week and forearms/wrists with either bis or tris.
I find quads take a lot out of me so don't think I can do hams justice on the same day which is why I've moved them to another workout. May move them to delts & traps to see if that's any better.
Thanks for input.
LordGrover said:
Righto. I'll go with the general consensus, mostly.
1. Quads & calves
2. Delts & traps
3. Back, bis & hams
4. Chest & tris
I'll fit in abs on a couple of days a week and forearms/wrists with either bis or tris.
I find quads take a lot out of me so don't think I can do hams justice on the same day which is why I've moved them to another workout. May move them to delts & traps to see if that's any better.
Thanks for input.
That's also true for me (shagged after quads...). So, I've changed things around for a while. I've dropped squats, and instead am using the legpress to really isolate the quads. Then I move on to Romanian deads (or Stiff-legged, whatever you want to call it!). I'm enjoying this a lot because before, with squats, I had to do the DLs on a different day because there was no way I could do both together with the right amount of intensity. SLDLs really, really f1. Quads & calves
2. Delts & traps
3. Back, bis & hams
4. Chest & tris
I'll fit in abs on a couple of days a week and forearms/wrists with either bis or tris.
I find quads take a lot out of me so don't think I can do hams justice on the same day which is why I've moved them to another workout. May move them to delts & traps to see if that's any better.
Thanks for input.
k your hams up! 
LordGrover said:
Slightly O/T and not very important but are traps generally considered to be upper back or shoulders?
I tend to lump them in with shoulder workouts as lats, rhomboids and lower back make back day pretty heavy already.
I've always thought of them as "back". If you consider the upper/middle & lower fibers then I'd say your average back workout will be hitting them them quite effectively. I tend to lump them in with shoulder workouts as lats, rhomboids and lower back make back day pretty heavy already.
General rule is that if for instance you are training chest and triceps on the same day, you train the biggest muscle first, so chest before triceps. And if you were doing shoulderes too, chest-shoudlers-triceps.
Training chest with a non related smaller muscle group like biceps also works, you just need to make sure you don't tain back the next day for example, as they won't have had enought time to recover. Training this way means that each musche isnt hit quite as hard in the session (most chest exercises will work triceps, and some tricep exercises work your chest so there each getting a harder workout.) However, this means they will be getting trainer more frequently, as on your triceps day you work your chest a bit, and vice versa. each way IMO is good, and I will swap between them throughout my trainign cycles.
As far as compound and isolation exercies go I will usually do compound first, so that I can shift the most weight. You can do things like pre-exhaustive training. This envolves tiring out chest with flyes, before going straight into a set of chest. This ensures that your chest fails before your triceps. Other exampels are Leg curls with Stiff leg deadlifts, or lateral raises with shoulders press. I am going to be trying these out soon as i've never trained this way before.
I may have gone off on a little tangent here hope i've helped though
As far as traps go, they don't really fit with anything too well, so I will usually do "back and shoulder" workout, which gives me the chance to really hit my traps.
Chris
Training chest with a non related smaller muscle group like biceps also works, you just need to make sure you don't tain back the next day for example, as they won't have had enought time to recover. Training this way means that each musche isnt hit quite as hard in the session (most chest exercises will work triceps, and some tricep exercises work your chest so there each getting a harder workout.) However, this means they will be getting trainer more frequently, as on your triceps day you work your chest a bit, and vice versa. each way IMO is good, and I will swap between them throughout my trainign cycles.
As far as compound and isolation exercies go I will usually do compound first, so that I can shift the most weight. You can do things like pre-exhaustive training. This envolves tiring out chest with flyes, before going straight into a set of chest. This ensures that your chest fails before your triceps. Other exampels are Leg curls with Stiff leg deadlifts, or lateral raises with shoulders press. I am going to be trying these out soon as i've never trained this way before.
I may have gone off on a little tangent here hope i've helped though
As far as traps go, they don't really fit with anything too well, so I will usually do "back and shoulder" workout, which gives me the chance to really hit my traps.
Chris
LordGrover said:
Slightly O/T and not very important but are traps generally considered to be upper back or shoulders?
I tend to lump them in with shoulder workouts as lats, rhomboids and lower back make back day pretty heavy already.
Actually very important. If you neglect a muscle group as big and functional as the traps and related upper back muscles then you'll be downplaying a significant part of your body, causing a weak link that will stymie your overall progress.I tend to lump them in with shoulder workouts as lats, rhomboids and lower back make back day pretty heavy already.
A combination of, or cycling through, deadlifts, cleans, hang pulls and power shrugs/shrugs is a really good basis for strength and size. I don't get it when people find time for pec deck flyes or cable crossovers but never touch the above! Most people I've seen don't use enough weight on shrugs and do too many reps to build much strength or size.
By the way, as for the difficulty of back days (should be really I guess!) how many different exercises and sets do you include?
Lost_BMW said:
By the way, as for the difficulty of back days (should be really I guess!) how many different exercises and sets do you include?
Currently, on my three day split the last session was:Pull-ups 3 x failure
Deadlifts 3 x 8-10 (2 warm-up sets first though)
One arm DB rows 3 x 10-12
Inverted rows 3 x failure
LordGrover said:
Lost_BMW said:
By the way, as for the difficulty of back days (should be really I guess!) how many different exercises and sets do you include?
Currently, on my three day split the last session was:Pull-ups 3 x failure
Deadlifts 3 x 8-10 (2 warm-up sets first though)
One arm DB rows 3 x 10-12
Inverted rows 3 x failure
Might be interesting to drop the inverted rows for 3 sets of shrugs for a while and see how you feel?
My last workout was just:
3 x 5 deadlift
3 x bent rows ( 2 x 5 heavy sets and then one of 12 to finish off, all on a shrug bar)
3 x c.10 to 12 rep shrugs (as I'd done sets of 5 the week before)
2 x 8 to 10 bent over lateral raises (heavier/ lower the week before)
so not much volume but god does my back ache even 3 days later - whole upper back, lats, traps, rhomboids, rear delts + hip/side abs.
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