Can/Do old people just give up?
Discussion
Ladies and Gents of the Lounge, I have a serious issue that requires your valued opinions.
This subject may belong in the Health section, but am seeking views to settle my mind somewhat.
3 weeks ago, my (87 year old) Father took up residency in a nursing home. After visiting him for the first time yesterday, I was genuinely quite shocked over how much he has degenerated, both physically and mentally since moving there and I am curious to understand (from those who have witnessed this first hand) if old people simply give up the will to live and, well, die..
I'll try not to bore you with my dad’s health issues, but in short he has become steadily more immobile over the last 6 months, resulting him becoming virtually bed-ridden. Despite having a Carer visit my dad twice a day, my (86 yr old) mother could no longer cope with the lack of mobility issues (falling over/soiling) and inevitably we (the children) took the decision out of both of my parents hands, as both of them were clinging on, hoping things would get better one day.
Naturally, when faced with the reality, my Dad did not want to go down the Care Home route, but he still has enough of his faculties to know that he could no longer continue to live in his (then) environment and that he had become a burden on his wife. For the children, it was a tough decision as we knew we would be separating a couple that had lived together for 61 years. With permanent home care not an option, fortunately my Brother found a Bupa care home that is less than 1 mile from my their house, so they still see each other daily. Without much persuasion, both my Mum and Dad accepted that it was for the best.
Despite his acceptance of the situation, my Dad described the day he moved him as the worst day of his life
As said above I saw him for the first time yesterday (I wanted to allow time him to get used to his new environment before visiting) and was quite shocked over how much he has gone down hill since he moved out of his house and away from my Mum. Not just physically (weight loss) but mentally too. He now just looks like a frail old man, too weak to do anything without help, apart from drink water.
Today, I have been thinking about what I saw and to me, my Dad has simply given up the will to live and is sinking fast. He’s been taken away from his comforting environment and seemingly has nothing left to live for. For me, it won’t be long until I get the call I don’t want.
Although this may read as such, this post is not an emotional cry for help or sympathy, as without sounding callous, he has gone slowly downhill over the last few years and I know that after 87 years his time will come one day and I’m ready for that, as far as I can be.
This is posted for one reason - to seek views and opinions about whether “they” can simply give up the will to live and die. Is this possible and has anyone experienced it?
My sister has told me that if they can survive the first few weeks (shock factor) then they can then live on in relative peace. Is this the case?
Your views are most welcome.
Thanks for reading
Guy
This subject may belong in the Health section, but am seeking views to settle my mind somewhat.
3 weeks ago, my (87 year old) Father took up residency in a nursing home. After visiting him for the first time yesterday, I was genuinely quite shocked over how much he has degenerated, both physically and mentally since moving there and I am curious to understand (from those who have witnessed this first hand) if old people simply give up the will to live and, well, die..
I'll try not to bore you with my dad’s health issues, but in short he has become steadily more immobile over the last 6 months, resulting him becoming virtually bed-ridden. Despite having a Carer visit my dad twice a day, my (86 yr old) mother could no longer cope with the lack of mobility issues (falling over/soiling) and inevitably we (the children) took the decision out of both of my parents hands, as both of them were clinging on, hoping things would get better one day.
Naturally, when faced with the reality, my Dad did not want to go down the Care Home route, but he still has enough of his faculties to know that he could no longer continue to live in his (then) environment and that he had become a burden on his wife. For the children, it was a tough decision as we knew we would be separating a couple that had lived together for 61 years. With permanent home care not an option, fortunately my Brother found a Bupa care home that is less than 1 mile from my their house, so they still see each other daily. Without much persuasion, both my Mum and Dad accepted that it was for the best.
Despite his acceptance of the situation, my Dad described the day he moved him as the worst day of his life
As said above I saw him for the first time yesterday (I wanted to allow time him to get used to his new environment before visiting) and was quite shocked over how much he has gone down hill since he moved out of his house and away from my Mum. Not just physically (weight loss) but mentally too. He now just looks like a frail old man, too weak to do anything without help, apart from drink water.
Today, I have been thinking about what I saw and to me, my Dad has simply given up the will to live and is sinking fast. He’s been taken away from his comforting environment and seemingly has nothing left to live for. For me, it won’t be long until I get the call I don’t want.
Although this may read as such, this post is not an emotional cry for help or sympathy, as without sounding callous, he has gone slowly downhill over the last few years and I know that after 87 years his time will come one day and I’m ready for that, as far as I can be.
This is posted for one reason - to seek views and opinions about whether “they” can simply give up the will to live and die. Is this possible and has anyone experienced it?
My sister has told me that if they can survive the first few weeks (shock factor) then they can then live on in relative peace. Is this the case?
Your views are most welcome.
Thanks for reading
Guy
Edited by Bowler on Monday 15th February 20:13
Edited by Bowler on Monday 15th February 20:14
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but in my experience it does happen - without going into details - birthdays / christmas etc can be psychological points they need to reach then after that thats it. I also think lack of activity / mental stimulation plays a part but if you have someone suffering from Alzheimers / Dementia for example they need to be in a safe place.
Mybrainhurts is still going so I suppose some people do and others do indeed feel helpless. 
Seriously though my elderly neighbour is quite frail but only gets down when people "fuss" and talk to her like she's 5 years old. Gets my goat when I hear them doing it so god knows how it irritates her. Bless her.
Seriously though my elderly neighbour is quite frail but only gets down when people "fuss" and talk to her like she's 5 years old. Gets my goat when I hear them doing it so god knows how it irritates her. Bless her.
I think your sister maybe right.
I feel for you fella.
The wifes uncle was in a similiar position.
He had lived on his own for years with a carer coming round to look after him here and there but it was getting to the point where he had to have full time supervision so a care home was sugested.
Unfortunately with some older people and in his case I think that this was a no no for him as he had too much pride to be placed in a nursing home with full time supervision which I completely understood.
He instantly gave up the will to live and stopped drinking and eating, Shortly after he was hospitalized, Unfortunaltly he still refused to eat even though he was hooked upto a drip which he kept removing until his body gave up and he passed on God bless him.
I think in your position though your dad will be ok as he has already completed the move and is still eating, It may just be that due to his whole life being thrown upside down that the stress has made him lose a few pounds and as has already been mentioned above after he gets through a couple of weeks he should be fine - Just make sure you visit him often so he knows your still there and havent just dumped him there to be forgotten about.
My thoughts and wishes are with you on this and hope it all turns out ok.
I feel for you fella.
The wifes uncle was in a similiar position.
He had lived on his own for years with a carer coming round to look after him here and there but it was getting to the point where he had to have full time supervision so a care home was sugested.
Unfortunately with some older people and in his case I think that this was a no no for him as he had too much pride to be placed in a nursing home with full time supervision which I completely understood.
He instantly gave up the will to live and stopped drinking and eating, Shortly after he was hospitalized, Unfortunaltly he still refused to eat even though he was hooked upto a drip which he kept removing until his body gave up and he passed on God bless him.
I think in your position though your dad will be ok as he has already completed the move and is still eating, It may just be that due to his whole life being thrown upside down that the stress has made him lose a few pounds and as has already been mentioned above after he gets through a couple of weeks he should be fine - Just make sure you visit him often so he knows your still there and havent just dumped him there to be forgotten about.
My thoughts and wishes are with you on this and hope it all turns out ok.
In short, yes, someone can give up. The stigma surrounding nursing homes means that many often see it as 'Gods Waiting Room'
In order to combat this an excellent home will provide:
Lovely accomodation
Large numbers of trained staff
Great food
Lots of activity and stimulation.
We are a residential home in shropshire and tick all of the above boxes and activities range from gardening competitions, bingo, baking, painting, dancing, singing, crafts, boules, dominos, film clubs, keep fit classes, pub and tourist outings etc etc etc. We even have our own beautician and hairdresser!
You can see how the home your father is in stacks up with the official government body here:
http://www.cqc.org.uk/registeredservicesdirectory/...
If the home is not 'excellent' and not providing this sort of stimulation you need to either move him or work very hard yourselves visiting him.
Our ethos is to provide a such a high quality of life for people that they learn to live again and family visits form a part of their time rather than the only thing they've got to hold onto. We work very hard to integrate people and give them their lives back.
In nearly every case we are succesful.
We are rare but not unique.
HTH
In order to combat this an excellent home will provide:
Lovely accomodation
Large numbers of trained staff
Great food
Lots of activity and stimulation.
We are a residential home in shropshire and tick all of the above boxes and activities range from gardening competitions, bingo, baking, painting, dancing, singing, crafts, boules, dominos, film clubs, keep fit classes, pub and tourist outings etc etc etc. We even have our own beautician and hairdresser!
You can see how the home your father is in stacks up with the official government body here:
http://www.cqc.org.uk/registeredservicesdirectory/...
If the home is not 'excellent' and not providing this sort of stimulation you need to either move him or work very hard yourselves visiting him.
Our ethos is to provide a such a high quality of life for people that they learn to live again and family visits form a part of their time rather than the only thing they've got to hold onto. We work very hard to integrate people and give them their lives back.
In nearly every case we are succesful.
We are rare but not unique.
HTH
charliedaker said:
In order to combat this an excellent home will provide:
Lovely accomodation
Large numbers of trained staff
Great food
Lots of activity and stimulation.
Having experience of a BUPA care home, and I am not saying they are all the same, they provide none of the above. I worked in one on a clinical placement for 6 weeks and it was horrible. I was in the severe dementia part of the home, but things weren't much better in the residential part. Food was terrible, legal minimum of staff on duty and very few activities. The staff in the main did provide very good personal care however.Lovely accomodation
Large numbers of trained staff
Great food
Lots of activity and stimulation.
Hopefully your Dad settles in, makes some friends and perks up. It must be incredibly difficult for him to be separated from his Wife after such a long time together.
Best wishes for what must be an incredibly difficult time for your whole family.
SK
OP I feel for you and the current predicament you face (as too does your father of course). I hope that as has already been said, that your father will bounce back after getting used to his new surroundings. Perhaps that is what it is that you have noticed? So long as your mother/you and other family members pay him daily/regular visits, then I hope that all will stay well.
On another note, Private Nursing Homes... what a horrible thing they are. Effectively a sham facility to do nothing more than extract the last few sheckles that you might possess before clocking out.
On another note, Private Nursing Homes... what a horrible thing they are. Effectively a sham facility to do nothing more than extract the last few sheckles that you might possess before clocking out.
Edited by ukwill on Monday 15th February 22:01
my friend,
I have never been one for sentimentality but if you want to get him home, do so. So what if it costs a bit or if you need to make changes....did he think about these things when he had you as a child? My gran is in a home now, a shell of who she was after a couple of strokes but every once in a while She returns and I wouldnt miss it for the world. My dream is to have her back home before I leave to other lands...the feeling of being tucked into to bed when I was younger,my gran stroaking my back, always there when I fell asleep and always there when I woke up....old age is a gift and a burden. There is wisdom for what is known and for what is forgotten and, I guess, what is to come. Maybe, even how frail he is and how much he says 'I dont want to be a burden' that he (and his wife,your mum?)wants to be with with her and you 'till the end? So if you do, go and get him, bring him home....'my friend, everyone dies! its s
t isnt it? but hey ho, its what happens and in the between is what is remembered... that's important!.....
I bring you a poem! Its not plagiarism mods!
See Me
What do you see, nurses, what do you see?
Are you thinking, when you look at me --
A crabby old woman, not very wise,
Uncertain of habit, with far-away eyes,
Who dribbles her food and makes no reply,
When you say in a loud voice -- "I do wish you'd try."
Who seems not to notice the things that you do,
And forever is losing a stocking or shoe,
Who unresisting or not, lets you do as you will,
With bathing and feeding, the long day to fill.
Is that what you're thinking, is that what you see?
Then open your eyes, nurse, you're looking at ME...
I'll tell you who I am, as I sit here so still;
As I rise at your bidding, as I eat at your will.
I'm a small child of ten with a father and mother,
Brothers and sisters, who love one another,
A young girl of sixteen with wings on her feet.
Dreaming that soon now a lover she'll meet;
A bride soon at twenty -- my heart gives a leap,
Remembering the vows that I promised to keep;
At twenty-five now I have young of my own,
Who need me to build a secure, happy home;
A woman of thirty, my young now grow fast,
Bound to each other with ties that should last;
At forty, my young sons have grown and are gone,
But my man's beside me to see I don't mourn;
At fifty once more babies play 'round my knee,
Again we know children, my loved one and me.
Dark days are upon me, my husband is dead,
I look at the future, I shudder with dread,
For my young are all rearing young of their own,
And I think of the years and the love that I've known;
I'm an old woman now and nature is cruel --
'Tis her jest to make old age look like a fool.
The body is crumbled, grace and vigor depart,
There is now a stone where once I had a heart,
But inside this old carcass a young girl still dwells,
And now and again my battered heart swells.
I remember the joys, I remember the pain,
And I'm loving and living life over again,
I think of the years, all too few -- gone too fast,
And accept the stark fact that nothing can last --
So I open your eyes, nurses, open and see,
Not a crabby old woman, look closer, nurses -- see ME!
This poem was found among the possessions of an elderly lady who died in the geriatric ward of a hospital. No information is available concerning her -- who she was or when she died. Reprinted from the "Assessment and Alternatives Help Guide" prepared by the Colorado Foundation for Medical Care.
I have never been one for sentimentality but if you want to get him home, do so. So what if it costs a bit or if you need to make changes....did he think about these things when he had you as a child? My gran is in a home now, a shell of who she was after a couple of strokes but every once in a while She returns and I wouldnt miss it for the world. My dream is to have her back home before I leave to other lands...the feeling of being tucked into to bed when I was younger,my gran stroaking my back, always there when I fell asleep and always there when I woke up....old age is a gift and a burden. There is wisdom for what is known and for what is forgotten and, I guess, what is to come. Maybe, even how frail he is and how much he says 'I dont want to be a burden' that he (and his wife,your mum?)wants to be with with her and you 'till the end? So if you do, go and get him, bring him home....'my friend, everyone dies! its s
t isnt it? but hey ho, its what happens and in the between is what is remembered... that's important!.....I bring you a poem! Its not plagiarism mods!
See Me
What do you see, nurses, what do you see?
Are you thinking, when you look at me --
A crabby old woman, not very wise,
Uncertain of habit, with far-away eyes,
Who dribbles her food and makes no reply,
When you say in a loud voice -- "I do wish you'd try."
Who seems not to notice the things that you do,
And forever is losing a stocking or shoe,
Who unresisting or not, lets you do as you will,
With bathing and feeding, the long day to fill.
Is that what you're thinking, is that what you see?
Then open your eyes, nurse, you're looking at ME...
I'll tell you who I am, as I sit here so still;
As I rise at your bidding, as I eat at your will.
I'm a small child of ten with a father and mother,
Brothers and sisters, who love one another,
A young girl of sixteen with wings on her feet.
Dreaming that soon now a lover she'll meet;
A bride soon at twenty -- my heart gives a leap,
Remembering the vows that I promised to keep;
At twenty-five now I have young of my own,
Who need me to build a secure, happy home;
A woman of thirty, my young now grow fast,
Bound to each other with ties that should last;
At forty, my young sons have grown and are gone,
But my man's beside me to see I don't mourn;
At fifty once more babies play 'round my knee,
Again we know children, my loved one and me.
Dark days are upon me, my husband is dead,
I look at the future, I shudder with dread,
For my young are all rearing young of their own,
And I think of the years and the love that I've known;
I'm an old woman now and nature is cruel --
'Tis her jest to make old age look like a fool.
The body is crumbled, grace and vigor depart,
There is now a stone where once I had a heart,
But inside this old carcass a young girl still dwells,
And now and again my battered heart swells.
I remember the joys, I remember the pain,
And I'm loving and living life over again,
I think of the years, all too few -- gone too fast,
And accept the stark fact that nothing can last --
So I open your eyes, nurses, open and see,
Not a crabby old woman, look closer, nurses -- see ME!
This poem was found among the possessions of an elderly lady who died in the geriatric ward of a hospital. No information is available concerning her -- who she was or when she died. Reprinted from the "Assessment and Alternatives Help Guide" prepared by the Colorado Foundation for Medical Care.
I think, yes you do.
My Grandad pretty much went the same way...started getting ill all the time and I think in the end he just realised that it was his age...and the end was pretty much around the corner. He had lived his life, had his fun and now the end was coming so to speak.
Also, with your dad having his mobility impaired it must be so frustrating not to be able to do half of the things we take for granted...like going to the toilet for one. Until he came to terms with the mobility problems he was probably fighting to keep his dignity. Moving into a care home, for him, is probably the signal that he just can't keep up anymore, he has let him self go because he just can not be bothered to keep fighting it anymore...he has accepted it.
Just watch that this acceptance does not turn into some sort of depression however!
My Grandad pretty much went the same way...started getting ill all the time and I think in the end he just realised that it was his age...and the end was pretty much around the corner. He had lived his life, had his fun and now the end was coming so to speak.
Also, with your dad having his mobility impaired it must be so frustrating not to be able to do half of the things we take for granted...like going to the toilet for one. Until he came to terms with the mobility problems he was probably fighting to keep his dignity. Moving into a care home, for him, is probably the signal that he just can't keep up anymore, he has let him self go because he just can not be bothered to keep fighting it anymore...he has accepted it.
Just watch that this acceptance does not turn into some sort of depression however!
I have seen a lot of BUPA homes and like Hotels and Boarding houses they are some you'd love and some you instantly turn around and walk out of. Even then the Staff make the place usually. Some I saw that were wonderful were small lovely places that just couldn't be updated and were closed. Other Modern clean places felt soul less.
My dad was in a home for the last two years of his life, after a long career as an engineer.
He did slowly but surely deteriorate over that time.
Two things I would add-
1. He had days where he was 'barely in the room' and wouldnt respond. Try not to be disheartened, because then, suddenly, out of the blue, he was back and funny and his normal self. I read car magazines out loud to him during this 'down time', to give us both something to do during the visiting time.
2. Visit. Visit lots. I used to nip in for half an hour here and there, as well as 'proper' visits. If I was away working for a week, I would go to visit and he would have regressed a tiny bit more. I used to phone him once a week too, at an agreed time.
He did slowly but surely deteriorate over that time.
Two things I would add-
1. He had days where he was 'barely in the room' and wouldnt respond. Try not to be disheartened, because then, suddenly, out of the blue, he was back and funny and his normal self. I read car magazines out loud to him during this 'down time', to give us both something to do during the visiting time.
2. Visit. Visit lots. I used to nip in for half an hour here and there, as well as 'proper' visits. If I was away working for a week, I would go to visit and he would have regressed a tiny bit more. I used to phone him once a week too, at an agreed time.
My Granddad is 85 and still meets his mates up the pub and various clubs for a beer! and still chats up ladies! then again he was a very tough old dog who used to man battle subs in the second world war! scary stuff.
Mate of mines father hung himself at his 60th birthday party in the barn attached to their mansion! the guy was very funny/fit and full of life, he left a note stating he could not see himself getting older than 60..., he was found mid party by my mate.
Age effects people in different ways i guess.
S
Mate of mines father hung himself at his 60th birthday party in the barn attached to their mansion! the guy was very funny/fit and full of life, he left a note stating he could not see himself getting older than 60..., he was found mid party by my mate.
Age effects people in different ways i guess.
S
I think this is true to an extent. My Grandfather did not appreciate the sudden loss of independence when he went into a home following an illness, and declined from there in a few months (he was 91), just kind of gave up and slept all the time, and gradually slipped away.
Others I have known have been similar, although I think it depends on your character. You can become pretty institutionalised in these places and it relies on the person carrying on trying to be as active as possible - physically and mentally - so they do not sit and veg, ending up sleeping all day on their own in their room and having nothing to interest them apart from what is for lunch. This happened to my father in law (same situation - health declined following a couple of strokes, wife could not look after at home). He got depressed and basically just lay in the room all day just waiting for his food or for the same time each day that his wife would phone. Visits were also quite difficult in terms of conversation.
I appriciate this isn't a positive post, but you did ask! Hope your dad gets on ok in there and picks up after the initial shock.
Others I have known have been similar, although I think it depends on your character. You can become pretty institutionalised in these places and it relies on the person carrying on trying to be as active as possible - physically and mentally - so they do not sit and veg, ending up sleeping all day on their own in their room and having nothing to interest them apart from what is for lunch. This happened to my father in law (same situation - health declined following a couple of strokes, wife could not look after at home). He got depressed and basically just lay in the room all day just waiting for his food or for the same time each day that his wife would phone. Visits were also quite difficult in terms of conversation.
I appriciate this isn't a positive post, but you did ask! Hope your dad gets on ok in there and picks up after the initial shock.
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