Urgent Help with Dementia Parent - Oldham

[h0b0]

My father was taken in to a residential home that specialises in dementia in October last year. I naively believed they would be able to support him as his vascular dementia progressed.

Unfortunately, he has turned violent and the home have given us 28 days notice of his eviction. He is currently locked in an area of the home and under 24 hour watch which is costing £500/day on top of the usual charges.

We have the social worker saying her hands are tied until the Mental health/ dementia unit declare him at risk. The mental health unit have said it is nothing to do with them and everything has to go through the social worker. The mental health/dementia service also said it is the Home's issue as they accepted him knowing how things would progress. The home called an ambulance hoping they would take him away so they could wash their hands of him. The ambulance turned up and said they are not a dementia eviction service and left..

I am 3000 miles away and do not know where to turn. My brother is carrying most of the weight here but he isn't making progress as everyone is pointing at everyone else. Is there someone in Oldham I can call that will be able to help?

[Wacky Racer]

An awful situation to be in.

Last year my 97 year old wife's auntie was in a care home 20 miles from Oldham, costing around £1000pw.

She suddenly started throwing plates around etc, but you would go the next day and you could have a nice game of dominoes with her.

Eventually the home said "She will have to go" and gave us a few days notice to find another place, but every place we looked at smelt of piss or was awful, even at nearly £2000 a week.

Anyhow, she had a fall, broke her hip (For the second time in six months), was admitted to hospital and died two days later.....a blessing really, as she kept saying she wanted to slip away.

Not much help I'm afraid, but getting old sucks,

Good luck.

[gotoPzero]

I dont know if any of this is of any use

Age UK dementia support Oldham
Contact
0161 622 9333
[e-mail]
Age Uk, 2 Lord Street, Oldham OL1 3EY



Oldham Mental Health Services
Borough Management Offices
Parklands House, The Royal Oldham Hospital, Rochdale Road
Oldham
Greater Manchester
OL1 2JH

Telephone
[phone]


Admiral nurses
Admiral Nurses provide the specialist dementia support that families need.

When things get challenging or difficult, our Nurses work alongside people with dementia, their families and carers: giving the one-to-one support, expert guidance and practical solutions people need, and that can be hard to find elsewhere.

Contact us
11th Floor, Hexagon Tower, Crumpsall Vale, Manchester, Manchester, M9 8GQ
Telephone: [phone]

[dundarach]

OP sorry to hear this news, I'm afraid I can't comment directly as my experiences were slightly different.

However when my mum deteriorated, I quickly learned NOT to take responsibility for her, as the medical and social system appeared to me to immediately hand over all care as quickly as possible to a relative and then want nothing more to do with them.

This is fine IF you're equipped to deal with it, I wasn't, sounds like you aren't either.

I would (however ste this sounds) have as little to do with the situation as possible, you're a long way away and I'm guessing don't know the ins and outs of the local systems.

Let the professionals deal with it.

However, it'll cost and you'll loose control.

This might not be what other people suggest and they may know more, I however found this a useful changing point with my mum, as soon as I stopped doing it, the systems and her care improved massively as the Council and local NHS realised they were going to have to put something sustainable and what worked, in place.

Best of look, I wouldn't accept and responsibility for doing anything, and I'd try and get your brother to see this too.

It'll make you feel st and everyone will think you're a tosser, I did and everyone thought I was (perhaps I am) all I know is that mums care was drastically better once I stopped doing my best!

Edited by dundarach on Monday 18th March 20:04

[h0b0]

dundarach said:

OP sorry to hear this news, I'm afraid I can't comment directly as my experiences were slightly different.

However when my mum deteriorated, I quickly learned NOT to take responsibility for her, as the medical and social system appeared to me to immediately hand over all care as quickly as possible to a relative and then want nothing more to do with them.

This is fine IF you're equipped to deal with it, I wasn't, sounds like you aren't either.

I would (however ste this sounds) have as little to do with the situation as possible, you're a long way away and I'm guessing don't know the ins and outs of the local systems.

Let the professionals deal with it.

However, it'll cost and you'll loose control.

This might not be what other people suggest and they may know more, I however found this a useful changing point with my mum, as soon as I stopped doing it, the systems and her care improved massively as the Council and local NHS realised they were going to have to put something sustainable and what worked, in place.

Best of look, I wouldn't accept and responsibility for doing anything!

I want to let the system take care of the situation but it does not seem to be kicking into gear. We have been told this is because he has somewhere to live who claim to be dementia specialists. We selected the home because of them having a separate area for residents with dementia. We have also been told it is the home's responsibility to find an appropriate facility. Instead, they have served an eviction notice and a bill for £14k for the next 28 days of care.

I am going to try the contacts provided above and see if we can get something to start moving.

[h0b0]

gotoPzero said:

I dont know if any of this is of any use

Age UK dementia support Oldham
Contact
0161 622 9333
[e-mail]
Age Uk, 2 Lord Street, Oldham OL1 3EY



Oldham Mental Health Services
Borough Management Offices
Parklands House, The Royal Oldham Hospital, Rochdale Road
Oldham
Greater Manchester
OL1 2JH

Telephone
[phone]


Admiral nurses
Admiral Nurses provide the specialist dementia support that families need.

When things get challenging or difficult, our Nurses work alongside people with dementia, their families and carers: giving the one-to-one support, expert guidance and practical solutions people need, and that can be hard to find elsewhere.

Contact us
11th Floor, Hexagon Tower, Crumpsall Vale, Manchester, Manchester, M9 8GQ
Telephone: [phone]

This is very useful in that it clears up confusion in my own mind and provides contact details. My brother has been doing everything until now and I felt it was an unfair burden. He is also to nice (not a fault) and so has been taking updates from people who should be providing progress. Tomorrow I will use these contacts to better understand how the process works and start things moving.

[moorx]

Is it possible that your father now requires a nursing home rather than a residential care home?

We experienced similar with my dad (he also had vascular dementia). We found him a nice local (to my mum and brother) residential care home which had a specialist unit for dementia patients. However, as his condition progressed/worsened, he needed more specialist nursing care. He also started to get violent (he had been suffering from hallucinations for several years). Dad ended up in hospital following a couple of falls and the home said they wouldn't take him back. There then followed a protracted time in hospital waiting for assessment and a place in a specialist dementia nursing home. We were lucky enough to find him a wonderful nursing home (a bit further out but still relatively local) who looked after him very well until he passed away. But he definitely needed the more specialist nursing care.

Very best of luck - you have my sympathies.

[gotoPzero]

h0b0 said:

This is very useful in that it clears up confusion in my own mind and provides contact details. My brother has been doing everything until now and I felt it was an unfair burden. He is also to nice (not a fault) and so has been taking updates from people who should be providing progress. Tomorrow I will use these contacts to better understand how the process works and start things moving.

No worries I found this number too on a page about aggression in dementia

Dementia Support Line
0333 150 3456

[Armitage.Shanks]

My FIL suffered from dementia and became violent at home. He was sectioned and taken to a secure unit in Manchester (Bury I think from memory) to be assessed. Ultimately he was transferred to a 'normal' nursing home of our choice near to us.

This sounds very much like a medication issue. Until suitable medication is found to control any violent outbursts very few nursing homes will take him. Once medicated FIL had no further violent outbursts and wasn't sedated to the level where he was in bed/sleeping all day.

I'm not familiar whether you can section someone under the mental health act with advanced dementia and whether they can be removed from residential/nursing care to a secure unit but this seems the obvious question to ask. Manchester Social Services started the process for us.

My sympathies, seeing and dealing with this I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[h0b0]

How did you trigger the sectioning? The normal health system (ambulance and hospital) have refused to accept him (Understandably).

[Bill]

dundarach said:

Stuff

Sound advice I suspect.

At the moment he is safe and is a place that can cope (albeit reluctantly) with him. But what happens on day 29? They won't just turf him out onto the street.

[dundarach]

h0b0 said:

How did you trigger the sectioning? The normal health system (ambulance and hospital) have refused to accept him (Understandably).

I'd wait and see what they do when evicting him.

Hull Social Services made it explicitly clear to me that they were waiting for a 'serious event' before they could step in.

That's when I stepped back and let the events happen.

Keep us posted and best of luck, it's really hard on everyone!

[h0b0]

Thank you for the advice and sanity check.

We have an assessment scheduled for tomorrow.


I want to state I’m not criticizing the system or anyone involved. I’m very aware if I was local it would be running smoother. Or, at least I would understand better. It is just frustrating when, I think I have set in place a plan that will grow as he deteriorates, and it fails. I thought a dementia specialist facility would care for him to the end. Instead, it turns out there are different flavors of specialist.

[Armitage.Shanks]

h0b0 said:

How did you trigger the sectioning? The normal health system (ambulance and hospital) have refused to accept him (Understandably).

Ambulance turned up and they formed the opinion sectioning was needed. This then kicked in an approved social worker and doctor. The upshot was as he entered the 'system' under the Mental Health Act all subsequent treatment and suitable accommodation (secure or otherwise) would be fully funded by the state with a reasoned choice by us where he should go. As it was his financial circumstances would not have been able to fund any care as financial planning many years ago meant he didn't own anything.

The problem with this case here is the subject is already in a care home and I can imagine the Social Services will be tyring to defer to the care home/family to sort. If Social Services are funding his care in part or otherwise then they are responsible to sort it. The question to ask is whether someone with dementia can pose a risk to themselves or another to the point the MHA applies and they can be sectioned? One for the medical professionial operating in this space.

The problem is Social Services will be understaffed and overloaded so if you want anything to happen quickly you have to do the legwork and become insistent. I wouldn't want their job and take my hat off to those that are committed.

Edited by Armitage.Shanks on Tuesday 19th March 23:15

[h0b0]

Armitage.Shanks said:

h0b0 said:

How did you trigger the sectioning? The normal health system (ambulance and hospital) have refused to accept him (Understandably).

Ambulance turned up and they formed the opinion sectioning was needed. This then kicked in an approved social worker and doctor. The upshot was as he entered the 'system' under the Mental Health Act all subsequent treatment and suitable accommodation (secure or otherwise) would be fully funded by the state with a reasoned choice by us where he should go. As it was his financial circumstances would not have been able to fund any care as financial planning many years ago meant he didn't own anything.

The problem with this case here is the subject is already in a care home and I can imagine the Social Services will be tyring to defer to the care home/family to sort. If Social Services are funding his care in part or otherwise then they are responsible to sort it. The question to ask is whether someone with dementia can pose a risk to themselves or another to the point the MHA applies and they can be sectioned? One for the medical professionial operating in this space.

The problem is Social Services will be understaffed and overloaded so if you want anything to happen quickly you have to do the legwork and become insistent. I wouldn't want their job and take my hat off to those that are committed.

Edited by Armitage.Shanks on Tuesday 19th March 23:15

You have captured the situation very well.

His normal doctor will not touch him because he has been prescribed drugs by a dementia doctor. These drugs knock him out and when he regains consciousness he goes from room to room trying to physically throw people out of his house. He slapped one resident a couple of weeks ago.

Mental health have said the home knew what they were taking on when they took him in 6 months ago. As a result, he is a low priority. They also say if anyone should be stepping in to help it would be the social worker. The social worker has said she can’t do anything without authorization from mental health that they will pick up the bill.

Frankly, my brother and I don’t care who pays. He is currently 100% self funded and any money he has is set aside for his care. I don’t mind him paying his way and we have always worked on trying to hit £0 the day he is buried. If there is funding under the MHA then his last days are going to be a wild ride of coke and hookers.

[drmotorsport]

I feel for you situation. My MiL with dementia was admitted to a normal care home when FiL could no longer cope with her care. She lasted 2 weeks before the care home tried to evict her due to her being aggressive. At that point she really needed 24hr monitoring and was a danger to herself and others and so we made the hard decision to refuse her to come back home as she needed professional care and we saif to the home they had a duty of care. The home then called an ambulance who after a while reluctantly took her into hospital on trumped up charges. Fortunately that was the best course of action as she was then quickly assessed in hospital and landed a spot in a local NHS nursing home where shes been ever since (2yrs) waiting for a full assessment. TLDR: wash your hands of the persons care needs and pass duty of care to the professionals at every opportunity sadly.

[Armitage.Shanks]

Turning this on its head what happens if you and your brother refuse to engage and let the 28 day notice expire? Whilst you are 'next of kin' and presumably Power of Attorney does this put the legal responsibilty on you for his care other than providing funding?

It sounds cruel but playing hardball if you said "I'm not doing anything, over to you" what would Social Services do in this situation? I suspect they'd have to find him somewhere suitable albeit your father will pay the bill. They have the experience to find a suitable placement. If I was tasked with finding a place how would I know what is/is not suitable without training and access to medical records and the expertise to understand them?

What happens on day 28 if there's nobody there to collect him? Who then has responsibility for his care? The care home undertook a risk assessment when he arrived and if they have experience of residents with dementia should understand the risks. I suspect they've reassessed him to elevate the fees in the hope it becomes too expensive for you forcing you to remove him. They've got a drain on their resources (profits) and want shut, these places are lucrative businesses, more than likely run on a tight budget to eek the most profit, difficult residents they can do without. Whilst the direct staff are committed the management will be balancing the books and answering to head office.

I was hoping a suitablly qualified doctor may read this and offer a view given there are many on PH.