"Practice" Epidural
Discussion
I'm >99% sure the answer to this question is no to the extent that asking it on its own is a fairly pointless endeavour, but what I'm really asking is if there is anything a bit like it or for other suggestions.
So firstly the "silly question":
Is there such a thing as a "practice" epidural where if you've not had one before you can experience it?
(If the answer is yes, hurray! But I will assume it's not)
Now the meat:
We're not that far away from our first mini-foolish and choosing between the birthing options is extremely difficult because while you can research the options and talk to other parents n that no one really knows what childbirth is going to feel like until they actually do that. That also goes for pain relief. Mrs Foolish has this strange fear of being numbed (she hates even lidocaine teething cream) which makes it hard for her hard to consider epidurals etc.
In an ideal world, you would be able to get a "practice" epidural a couple of weeks before giving birth where you could give it a go and see what it actually felt like. This would go for other birthy stuff too like TENS machine (well I can get access to that), gas/opioids (well I can get access to them too tbf but no one responsible gonna give the sketchy ones I can get access to their wife and nor would she have them), the general experience of having a caeserean cut as another option (I suppose in principle I could slice her apart but... well obv I am not being serious about these parenthesise options)... since these things do not - I think - exist what are the closest alternative things? It certainly seems to me that in principle you could do nitrous oxide and, I dunno, a bit of codeine or something, in a properly supervised setting. Perhaps if you paid privately you could even do an epidural? I'd be happy to pay for her to have one so she could make an infiormed decision? Is there such a thing? Does this even make sense? What other non-obvious resources are there for making these decisions?
The whole giving birth thing seems very wooly to me.
So firstly the "silly question":
Is there such a thing as a "practice" epidural where if you've not had one before you can experience it?
(If the answer is yes, hurray! But I will assume it's not)
Now the meat:
We're not that far away from our first mini-foolish and choosing between the birthing options is extremely difficult because while you can research the options and talk to other parents n that no one really knows what childbirth is going to feel like until they actually do that. That also goes for pain relief. Mrs Foolish has this strange fear of being numbed (she hates even lidocaine teething cream) which makes it hard for her hard to consider epidurals etc.
In an ideal world, you would be able to get a "practice" epidural a couple of weeks before giving birth where you could give it a go and see what it actually felt like. This would go for other birthy stuff too like TENS machine (well I can get access to that), gas/opioids (well I can get access to them too tbf but no one responsible gonna give the sketchy ones I can get access to their wife and nor would she have them), the general experience of having a caeserean cut as another option (I suppose in principle I could slice her apart but... well obv I am not being serious about these parenthesise options)... since these things do not - I think - exist what are the closest alternative things? It certainly seems to me that in principle you could do nitrous oxide and, I dunno, a bit of codeine or something, in a properly supervised setting. Perhaps if you paid privately you could even do an epidural? I'd be happy to pay for her to have one so she could make an infiormed decision? Is there such a thing? Does this even make sense? What other non-obvious resources are there for making these decisions?
The whole giving birth thing seems very wooly to me.
Epidural is a needle stuck into the spine, I would hope no clincian in the UK consider doing one for no clinical reason even for 1 second. If you do find some offering what you are asking for, check they are still registered with the GMC.
Child brith is hard for all, risky for some and scary, but its much safer now than 100 years ago.
Child brith is hard for all, risky for some and scary, but its much safer now than 100 years ago.
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 27th September 05:52
Best tip we had was to make a plan but be fully prepared to throw it out if the window and go with the flow as you really can’t tell how it will all go.
We did hypnobirthing then decided it would be gas and air and pethadine(?) with an epidural as the last option.
Fast forward to the main event… all out of the window, tens machine for a bit, epidural and eventually a c-section (after 40-odd hours of no progress and increasingly distressed baby and mother). We ended up with a healthy baby which is all that mattered.
Try and go with the flow and don’t write options off.
We did hypnobirthing then decided it would be gas and air and pethadine(?) with an epidural as the last option.
Fast forward to the main event… all out of the window, tens machine for a bit, epidural and eventually a c-section (after 40-odd hours of no progress and increasingly distressed baby and mother). We ended up with a healthy baby which is all that mattered.
Try and go with the flow and don’t write options off.
gangzoom said:
Epidural is a needle stuck into the spine, I would hope no clincian in the UK consider doing one for no clinical reason even for 1 second.l
100%, there are definite risks to this procedure, I would hope no doctor would perform one unless it is 100% necessary. It's funny how all new parents write a birthing plan which then gets ripped up pretty much as soon as the labour starts. There is a reason nobody writes one for the second child.
You just need to go with the flow and make a decision about pain relief as the birth is progressing. My ex wife was adamant she was not going to have an epidural and ended up begging for one half way through.
As an observer it appears to hurt a lot and my ex wifes previous idea of pain on a 1 to 10 scale was rewritten after giving birth.
OP ... relax. Fretting about this sort of stuff is counterproductive. You cannot know how the birth will proceed and your midwives/doctors/vets/spiritual guides will adapt the approach and options as things unfold on the day. At this stage you might want to consider if she's going to try bobbling in the paddling pool, but beyond that you just have to see how things play out.
An example: my wife starts to get contractions at home. Does breathing stuff and zaps herself with the Tens box. Midwife says it's time to go to the midwife-led unit as per the plan. We arrive but they've lost their water supply, so we all move on to the next midwife-led unit. No paddling pool there; no big deal. Not much happening, discomfort fairly severe, wife tries some gas and air. Helps a bit, but also feels a bit pissed and nauseous. Contractions not getting stronger and dilation not really happening. Midwives can't administer drugs to get things moving not provide more intensive intervention should it be needed, so we relocate to a hospital. Doctor administers some drugs to get things moving which works but wife is now exhausted so isn't able to push the little sod out. So an epidural is administered, scissors are deployed to perform an episiotomy and young Ben is pulled out with the aid of some forceps.
Everyone tired but fine.
If we'd gone into that clinging to a plan that we'd have a water birth in a pool scattered with rose petals and where's my oat milk latte? Having to let go of the illusion of control would have been alarming. Better to recognise the total uncertainty and take confidence in one's capacity to adapt.
An example: my wife starts to get contractions at home. Does breathing stuff and zaps herself with the Tens box. Midwife says it's time to go to the midwife-led unit as per the plan. We arrive but they've lost their water supply, so we all move on to the next midwife-led unit. No paddling pool there; no big deal. Not much happening, discomfort fairly severe, wife tries some gas and air. Helps a bit, but also feels a bit pissed and nauseous. Contractions not getting stronger and dilation not really happening. Midwives can't administer drugs to get things moving not provide more intensive intervention should it be needed, so we relocate to a hospital. Doctor administers some drugs to get things moving which works but wife is now exhausted so isn't able to push the little sod out. So an epidural is administered, scissors are deployed to perform an episiotomy and young Ben is pulled out with the aid of some forceps.
Everyone tired but fine.
If we'd gone into that clinging to a plan that we'd have a water birth in a pool scattered with rose petals and where's my oat milk latte? Having to let go of the illusion of control would have been alarming. Better to recognise the total uncertainty and take confidence in one's capacity to adapt.
She’s over thinking it. Couple of sucks on gas and air is all she needs or go really old skool and a shot of whiskey and a leather strap to bite down on.
Seriously though how is her pain threshold? Many do it naturally in a swimming pool type affair depends how bit the baby is I guess. Obviously us men are experts in such matters.
Seriously though how is her pain threshold? Many do it naturally in a swimming pool type affair depends how bit the baby is I guess. Obviously us men are experts in such matters.
The comment about having a plan but just needing to go with it is 100% accurate.
Write your dream birth plan but be fully prepared to bin it as the realities of child birth and medical requirements and advice change things up
My wife desperately wanted to give birth naturally but it wasn’t to be. She is still a little saddened about it some years on but the fact we have two healthy noisy boys is the main thing!
Write your dream birth plan but be fully prepared to bin it as the realities of child birth and medical requirements and advice change things up
My wife desperately wanted to give birth naturally but it wasn’t to be. She is still a little saddened about it some years on but the fact we have two healthy noisy boys is the main thing!
BoRED S2upid said:
She’s over thinking it. Couple of sucks on gas and air is all she needs or go really old skool and a shot of whiskey and a leather strap to bite down on.
Seriously though how is her pain threshold? Many do it naturally in a swimming pool type affair depends how bit the baby is I guess. Obviously us men are experts in such matters.
This- Mrs P had a huge plan, that involved pain relief etcSeriously though how is her pain threshold? Many do it naturally in a swimming pool type affair depends how bit the baby is I guess. Obviously us men are experts in such matters.
In the end she had a waterbirth with gas and air. I was in utter awe watching her go through birth.
Both births entirely natural, no tears, no surgery. 2nd time she had to have waters broken- and she went from no "action" to having completed brith in 45mins- we barely had time to get the waterbath full of water!
OP- what will, will be. One tip i will give you is don't go into hospital at the earliest contraction- you'll know when you need to go! First time Mrs P did most of her early labour at home, which was much less stressful.
No way can you get a practice spinal. Each one will be different anyway. My first birth was messed up with the epidural and I had spinal fluid leaked which was debilitating for three weeks afterwards and the headache from hell. Not easy when I had twins to look after. The second one I didn’t even know was done and was fabulous.
Generally have an idea about what you would like to try, water birth seems the best way from what is available. But go with the midwives, they know what they are doing and what will be working best. Preconceived ideas will make you feel uptight and anxious when things deviate or change. I wanted gas and air but everything turned yellow and I threw up for ages afterwards.
Fear of birth is massive, your partner would be best off seeking some fast therapy and relaxation techniques to fend off her brain telling her how anxious she is. Let the midwives guide you with the actual birth.
Generally have an idea about what you would like to try, water birth seems the best way from what is available. But go with the midwives, they know what they are doing and what will be working best. Preconceived ideas will make you feel uptight and anxious when things deviate or change. I wanted gas and air but everything turned yellow and I threw up for ages afterwards.
Fear of birth is massive, your partner would be best off seeking some fast therapy and relaxation techniques to fend off her brain telling her how anxious she is. Let the midwives guide you with the actual birth.
Instead of thinking about "birthing plan", much better to try and run all (or certainly all of the usual) eventualities through your heads and talk them through together.
When Giving birth things can change at a seconds notice and I think going in with a highly structured birthing plan isn't helpful.
Also, seek out some relaxation/meditation/breathing techniques. They will be very helpful.
When Giving birth things can change at a seconds notice and I think going in with a highly structured birthing plan isn't helpful.
Also, seek out some relaxation/meditation/breathing techniques. They will be very helpful.
dundarach said:
My experience of being there for both is this
GIVE ME THE EPIDURAL NOW OTHERWISE ALL WILL DIE
This but with more swearing in my experience.GIVE ME THE EPIDURAL NOW OTHERWISE ALL WILL DIE
By all means have a plan, but as above posters have said, it’ll go out the window in the event. Epidural wasn’t part of any plan we did have - other half wasn’t keen until she needed it NOW!
Our son arrived 6 weeks early, waters broke whilst out having brunch and we arrived in hospital in the clothes we were wearing and nothing else. Never got round to packing the “grab bag” you’re supposed to have!
All the things NCT groups etc make you fret about aren’t really that important once it all gets going!
A practice epidural - are you serious?
An epidural goes into the epidural space, a spinal is more direct and goes into the spinal nerves / surrounding cerebrospinal fluid.
There are differences in the drugs used for each procedure too.
Either way your anaesthetist should be practiced in doing this as comfortably as possible, and speak to them or the obstetric person too.
An epidural goes into the epidural space, a spinal is more direct and goes into the spinal nerves / surrounding cerebrospinal fluid.
There are differences in the drugs used for each procedure too.
Either way your anaesthetist should be practiced in doing this as comfortably as possible, and speak to them or the obstetric person too.
Echo the above- it would he bonkers to have an invasive procedure as a dry run. What is the best outcome- she has 2 epidurals thereby doubling the risk? Also although local anaesthetic is safe really you should avoid medication as far as possible in pregnancy.
All the above is as a surgeon. As a father of 4 regarding birth plans: 'no plan survives first contact with the enemy'
All the above is as a surgeon. As a father of 4 regarding birth plans: 'no plan survives first contact with the enemy'
DOI: I am a consultant obstetric anaesthetist. I spend a chunk of my time doing this professionally.
An epidural does not go into the spine or any nerves. Neither does a spinal anaesthetic. They are both different for technical reasons - don't worry about what they are but essentially epidural has a plastic tube in the back to allow administration of pain relief for a few days (potentially), a spinal anaesthetic lasts only a few hours. I hate the terminology - the technical wording is central neuraxial blockade but even I get bored typing that. The epidural sits outside the sac that holds the fluid around your spinal cord and nerves, the spinal anaesthetics use a tiny needle (much smaller than a needle for taking blood) to put local anaesthetic and pain relief into the fluid around the nerves.
Don't think of it as a birth plan. The baby has not read it, so won't necessarily follow it. Think of it more as a Birth Choice. The NHS has a Birth Plan (annoying terminology!) guide at https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/labour-and-birth/prep... Your midwife can advise you about various pain relief options. Keep an open mind. It is ok to be uncertain. A crystal ball would make life a lot easier but there we go. The midwives and medical teams are on your side, and will try to help your wife decide what she would like. Generally you do not have to make any decisions before the day (except where to aim to give birth) and (safety allowing) you can try different pain relief options before an epidural.
An excellent website is here at www.labourpains.org . It is by the Obstetric Anaesthetists Association (OAA), which is an international group of subspecialty anaesthetists (like me). It has a ton of information on it which may be useful.
There isn't much point doing practice anything beforehand as without the pain/labour then they will not feel the same. Any worries and there is usually an anaesthetist on the delivery suite who can answer any questions or worries, or beforehand your midwife may be able to arrange a clinic appointment with an anaesthetist to discuss things (although I know from chat that every service is incredibly busy currently so there may be a wait!).
Edited as hyperlinks screwed up.
Edited again to possibly clarify the comment about local anaesthetics above? Yes - best to avoid in PREGNANCY but no issues of local anaesthetic during LABOUR. There is no evidence to suggest that epidurals lead to any adverse outcomes in the baby. In fact, some evidence suggests that fetal blood gases (blood tests from the placenta taken immediately after birth) suggest that the baby suffers less stress with an epidural than without, probably as the adrenaline etc of the mother is lower. What isn't known is whether this makes any difference to the baby at all, but we take it as an indicator that they do not cause harm.
An epidural does not go into the spine or any nerves. Neither does a spinal anaesthetic. They are both different for technical reasons - don't worry about what they are but essentially epidural has a plastic tube in the back to allow administration of pain relief for a few days (potentially), a spinal anaesthetic lasts only a few hours. I hate the terminology - the technical wording is central neuraxial blockade but even I get bored typing that. The epidural sits outside the sac that holds the fluid around your spinal cord and nerves, the spinal anaesthetics use a tiny needle (much smaller than a needle for taking blood) to put local anaesthetic and pain relief into the fluid around the nerves.
Don't think of it as a birth plan. The baby has not read it, so won't necessarily follow it. Think of it more as a Birth Choice. The NHS has a Birth Plan (annoying terminology!) guide at https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/labour-and-birth/prep... Your midwife can advise you about various pain relief options. Keep an open mind. It is ok to be uncertain. A crystal ball would make life a lot easier but there we go. The midwives and medical teams are on your side, and will try to help your wife decide what she would like. Generally you do not have to make any decisions before the day (except where to aim to give birth) and (safety allowing) you can try different pain relief options before an epidural.
An excellent website is here at www.labourpains.org . It is by the Obstetric Anaesthetists Association (OAA), which is an international group of subspecialty anaesthetists (like me). It has a ton of information on it which may be useful.
There isn't much point doing practice anything beforehand as without the pain/labour then they will not feel the same. Any worries and there is usually an anaesthetist on the delivery suite who can answer any questions or worries, or beforehand your midwife may be able to arrange a clinic appointment with an anaesthetist to discuss things (although I know from chat that every service is incredibly busy currently so there may be a wait!).
Edited as hyperlinks screwed up.
Edited again to possibly clarify the comment about local anaesthetics above? Yes - best to avoid in PREGNANCY but no issues of local anaesthetic during LABOUR. There is no evidence to suggest that epidurals lead to any adverse outcomes in the baby. In fact, some evidence suggests that fetal blood gases (blood tests from the placenta taken immediately after birth) suggest that the baby suffers less stress with an epidural than without, probably as the adrenaline etc of the mother is lower. What isn't known is whether this makes any difference to the baby at all, but we take it as an indicator that they do not cause harm.
Edited by dgb00 on Thursday 28th September 09:22
Maxf said:
Best tip we had was to make a plan but be fully prepared to throw it out if the window and go with the flow as you really can’t tell how it will all go.
We did hypnobirthing then decided it would be gas and air and pethadine(?) with an epidural as the last option.
Fast forward to the main event… all out of the window, tens machine for a bit, epidural and eventually a c-section (after 40-odd hours of no progress and increasingly distressed baby and mother). We ended up with a healthy baby which is all that mattered.
Try and go with the flow and don’t write options off.
Best advice as above We did hypnobirthing then decided it would be gas and air and pethadine(?) with an epidural as the last option.
Fast forward to the main event… all out of the window, tens machine for a bit, epidural and eventually a c-section (after 40-odd hours of no progress and increasingly distressed baby and mother). We ended up with a healthy baby which is all that mattered.
Try and go with the flow and don’t write options off.
Don't arrive with any fixed ideas of how things will go because you can't ever know with healthcare
I guess the thing is - much like e.g. psychedelics - it's much easier to know what an epidural is like if you've had one before, it's not something that you can read about and actually really understand how it will be. Still I take the point that an epidural during labour versus an epidural for "no reason"* is possibly such a different experience that this wouldn't be helpful at all.
And I also take the more general point that birth plans are basically pointless. Still that doesn't change that if you're given an epidural you're (presumably) asked at the moment whether you want an epidural and if you don't know what one's like you're flying in the dark with the decision a bit.
*When you learn to give one as an anaesthetist do you practice on each other to know what one is like?
And I also take the more general point that birth plans are basically pointless. Still that doesn't change that if you're given an epidural you're (presumably) asked at the moment whether you want an epidural and if you don't know what one's like you're flying in the dark with the decision a bit.
*When you learn to give one as an anaesthetist do you practice on each other to know what one is like?
Somewhatfoolish said:
I guess the thing is - much like e.g. psychedelics - it's much easier to know what an epidural is like if you've had one before, it's not something that you can read about and actually really understand how it will be.
But - even if you did know what it was like, what would you do with this information? It has no relevance. It doesn't matter what it felt like before (in a totally different situation), if it's the right thing to do now then it's the right thing to do now.If you do get to the point where an epidural is being considered, she will be stressed, knackered, and in pain. You will be stressed and knackered. Neither of you will be in any position to give a dispassionate view of what you did and didn't feel like previously in a completely different situation to that which you're in now and the best thing is to take the advice of the professionals around you who will have seen everything you're going through a million times before.
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