Older fathers mental health - Advice appreciated
Discussion
Hi all,
This might be a long one - so thank you in advance for your patience. All advice appreciated.
My father is 70 years old and consistently struggles with mood swings. We normally put it down to him getting older and grumpy but some events today have really tipped me over the edge, I'm looking for advice and not entirely sure on where to turn. I'm also not entirely sure on how to structure this, so will start with a little bit of background.
My father lives with my mother and my younger (in his 30s) in the house I grew up in, around 20 miles from where I live with my family (mrs, a 6 year old and a 1 year old). He's retired and hasn't worked for many years but financially ok. Growing up, he was very strict and all my life I remember him being prone to mood swings and generally flying off the handle at small things. He has a very pesimistic view on life and will never have his mind changed, regardless of facts. Mum on the other hand is as calm as can be, and will avoid conflict. She's a typical nice woman who only ever cares about her kids. Everything is about me, my brother and my kids. She's everything you imagine a grandma to be, even knitting sweaters for them etc.
So today....This morning, I woke early with the kids and decided to take them round for breakfast. I thought it would be nice for the grandparents to see them and my older one loves his grandma to bits. My mum has always been amazing with my kids but my dad sometimes would argue and swear in front of them. This caused a slight rift in our families but we're generally ok. Who doesn't have some crazy people in their family, I would always say to myself, before always going back.
Fast forward to breakfast, all seems to be going ok until my mother leaves the room to make brekky, my dad is staring my 6 year old down, who now notices and keeps looking at me as if to say "whats wrong with grandad?". I notice this and ask him to go help grandma make breakfast. My 1 year old then proceeds to follow him out the room, then runs back in for a cuddle and a kiss before I send her back. As soon as I send her back, my dad is now looking at me with the same agressive face. "You ok dad?" I ask. "why you asking" he responds. "its just you look a little pissed off, is everything ok?" I answer with a gentle tone, thinking i've probably done something to annoy him without knowing. He has a history of disproportional responses to stuff he thinks is 'wrong'.
At this point he starts his 'telling off', ranting about how he wont tell me about anything and words to the effect of how I'm out of order (effs and jeffs included). I try calm him down and gently ask, 'dad whats wrong?, whats happened?' this fuels his fire more and then he flies off about how i've made mum make breakfast (i had offered to pick up on the way there, order in or help in the kitchen). Then the kids come back and I hope he's going to just quieten down but no, he escalates further and further. My mum keeps trying to calm him as he's now just using vile language aggressively to me (in front of my 6 year old who I can see getting scared). I lean into the argument and ask what exactly his point is, he stumped but decides to carry on even louder as if I hadn't even asked. As he wont stop, my mum looks at me and says "he's been like this since yesterday" assetively. He gets fired up even more and now starts shouting at me and her. I decided enough is enough, picked up my 1 year old and told my 6 year old to put his trainers on. It later transpired that yesterday he'd been really made at my brother for seemingly no reason.
We leave the house and head towards the car in the drive, I put the kids in and my mum comes out crying. She leans into me crying and tells me that this is a regular occurance at their house. I have witnessed stuff like this but she told me about some of the stuff he's recently been saying to her. Stuff like, i'm going to kick you and your son (my brother) out. She told me how he's now constantly fighting with my brother and will kick up chaos at a moments notice. Watching her cry really made me angry and probably against my better judgement I went back in to confront him. I walked in to him still shouting foul language. I slowed myself down and told him that he's the problem here, not anyone else. He exploded at me waving his arms about - this doesn't really scare me the way it used to when i was a kid. Mum called me and I went back out as she was with the kids. I got in the car and before I left, I told her to come and stay at our house, for as long as needed. She told me that he'd make my brothers life a living hell and she had to be here for him. She also told me of the way he'll have meltdowns before either of them go out, and how they go for walks to get away from him. She told me to go home and look after the kids.
Fast forward to this evening. Had a call with mum to see if she's ok and she's told me some of the stuff thats happened over the last few months. He's threatened to kick them out multiple times, screams and shouts at them regularly, forced one of them to stay with him when they were going to visit family multiple times using meltdowns and shouting that they dont care. The abuse has got so back that mum keeps the windows closed so the neighboors don't hear and on a couple of occasions when they fight back, threatened to kill himself while hitting himself.
Today, my brother and mum have made an ultimatum to him that he needs to go seek help at the doctors. I know he won't. He was forced into seeking help at the docs a few years ago. They prescribed medication which he refused to take.
Now....I don't know what to do, I don't know who to call and I'm so angry and upset that he's doing this to my mum and brother. My brother and I aren't very close but I feel for him too. I've told my mum to move in with me, or to pay for a place for her and my brother (i'm fortunate to be able to afford this). She won't agree because my brother won't leave. I've told her that he's going to ruin the golden years of her life. She understand's this but is unable to leave without my brothers full support. My mum came here via an arranged wedding 38 years ago and he's restricted her from driving, earning money or even learning the language ever since. She's very underconfident. He has such a tight hold on them but I feel like I can't help, because everything I offer they can't take. I feel he needs to be forcibly assessed but no idea if this only happens in movies.
Sorry for the long post, and thank you to those who took the time to read this far.
This might be a long one - so thank you in advance for your patience. All advice appreciated.
My father is 70 years old and consistently struggles with mood swings. We normally put it down to him getting older and grumpy but some events today have really tipped me over the edge, I'm looking for advice and not entirely sure on where to turn. I'm also not entirely sure on how to structure this, so will start with a little bit of background.
My father lives with my mother and my younger (in his 30s) in the house I grew up in, around 20 miles from where I live with my family (mrs, a 6 year old and a 1 year old). He's retired and hasn't worked for many years but financially ok. Growing up, he was very strict and all my life I remember him being prone to mood swings and generally flying off the handle at small things. He has a very pesimistic view on life and will never have his mind changed, regardless of facts. Mum on the other hand is as calm as can be, and will avoid conflict. She's a typical nice woman who only ever cares about her kids. Everything is about me, my brother and my kids. She's everything you imagine a grandma to be, even knitting sweaters for them etc.
So today....This morning, I woke early with the kids and decided to take them round for breakfast. I thought it would be nice for the grandparents to see them and my older one loves his grandma to bits. My mum has always been amazing with my kids but my dad sometimes would argue and swear in front of them. This caused a slight rift in our families but we're generally ok. Who doesn't have some crazy people in their family, I would always say to myself, before always going back.
Fast forward to breakfast, all seems to be going ok until my mother leaves the room to make brekky, my dad is staring my 6 year old down, who now notices and keeps looking at me as if to say "whats wrong with grandad?". I notice this and ask him to go help grandma make breakfast. My 1 year old then proceeds to follow him out the room, then runs back in for a cuddle and a kiss before I send her back. As soon as I send her back, my dad is now looking at me with the same agressive face. "You ok dad?" I ask. "why you asking" he responds. "its just you look a little pissed off, is everything ok?" I answer with a gentle tone, thinking i've probably done something to annoy him without knowing. He has a history of disproportional responses to stuff he thinks is 'wrong'.
At this point he starts his 'telling off', ranting about how he wont tell me about anything and words to the effect of how I'm out of order (effs and jeffs included). I try calm him down and gently ask, 'dad whats wrong?, whats happened?' this fuels his fire more and then he flies off about how i've made mum make breakfast (i had offered to pick up on the way there, order in or help in the kitchen). Then the kids come back and I hope he's going to just quieten down but no, he escalates further and further. My mum keeps trying to calm him as he's now just using vile language aggressively to me (in front of my 6 year old who I can see getting scared). I lean into the argument and ask what exactly his point is, he stumped but decides to carry on even louder as if I hadn't even asked. As he wont stop, my mum looks at me and says "he's been like this since yesterday" assetively. He gets fired up even more and now starts shouting at me and her. I decided enough is enough, picked up my 1 year old and told my 6 year old to put his trainers on. It later transpired that yesterday he'd been really made at my brother for seemingly no reason.
We leave the house and head towards the car in the drive, I put the kids in and my mum comes out crying. She leans into me crying and tells me that this is a regular occurance at their house. I have witnessed stuff like this but she told me about some of the stuff he's recently been saying to her. Stuff like, i'm going to kick you and your son (my brother) out. She told me how he's now constantly fighting with my brother and will kick up chaos at a moments notice. Watching her cry really made me angry and probably against my better judgement I went back in to confront him. I walked in to him still shouting foul language. I slowed myself down and told him that he's the problem here, not anyone else. He exploded at me waving his arms about - this doesn't really scare me the way it used to when i was a kid. Mum called me and I went back out as she was with the kids. I got in the car and before I left, I told her to come and stay at our house, for as long as needed. She told me that he'd make my brothers life a living hell and she had to be here for him. She also told me of the way he'll have meltdowns before either of them go out, and how they go for walks to get away from him. She told me to go home and look after the kids.
Fast forward to this evening. Had a call with mum to see if she's ok and she's told me some of the stuff thats happened over the last few months. He's threatened to kick them out multiple times, screams and shouts at them regularly, forced one of them to stay with him when they were going to visit family multiple times using meltdowns and shouting that they dont care. The abuse has got so back that mum keeps the windows closed so the neighboors don't hear and on a couple of occasions when they fight back, threatened to kill himself while hitting himself.
Today, my brother and mum have made an ultimatum to him that he needs to go seek help at the doctors. I know he won't. He was forced into seeking help at the docs a few years ago. They prescribed medication which he refused to take.
Now....I don't know what to do, I don't know who to call and I'm so angry and upset that he's doing this to my mum and brother. My brother and I aren't very close but I feel for him too. I've told my mum to move in with me, or to pay for a place for her and my brother (i'm fortunate to be able to afford this). She won't agree because my brother won't leave. I've told her that he's going to ruin the golden years of her life. She understand's this but is unable to leave without my brothers full support. My mum came here via an arranged wedding 38 years ago and he's restricted her from driving, earning money or even learning the language ever since. She's very underconfident. He has such a tight hold on them but I feel like I can't help, because everything I offer they can't take. I feel he needs to be forcibly assessed but no idea if this only happens in movies.
Sorry for the long post, and thank you to those who took the time to read this far.
Edited by TeamBigfoot on Sunday 28th May 23:00
Edited by TeamBigfoot on Sunday 28th May 23:02
Their GP is most likely the first stop, and you can speak to their GP directly. While they won't divulge anything to you unless you have medical PoA, you can provide information to them.
Any idea what medication was prescribed previously?
The more difficult part is the option of people leaving him to it - sounds like he's got that coverd from a control perspective, and that sounds like nothing new. What's stopping both mother and younger brother BOTH leaving?
Any idea what medication was prescribed previously?
The more difficult part is the option of people leaving him to it - sounds like he's got that coverd from a control perspective, and that sounds like nothing new. What's stopping both mother and younger brother BOTH leaving?
said:
my dad is staring my 6 year old down, who now notices and keeps looking at me as if to say "whats wrong with grandad?"... my dad is now looking at me with the same agressive face.
That would have been enough for me, I would have got them both out of the room and then frightened the life out of him - never mind the screaming abuse that followed.shtu said:
The more difficult part is the option of people leaving him to it - sounds like he's got that coverd from a control perspective, and that sounds like nothing new. What's stopping both mother and younger brother BOTH leaving?
No idea on previous medication. Mum and brother have never got that far. Brother can go for days without talking to him. Both their tolerances for his nonsence seem to high for me. They've also been very quiet about all the goings on over the last few months. I found out through mum today. They didn't tell me because mum thought i'd tell the wife, who then might tell someone else and this might make its way round the 'asian community'. This is sadly how my community works.Keeping up appearances gone too far in my opinion. What really annoys me is that they've been playing happy families when we go round and mums kept this under the rug.
Edited by TeamBigfoot on Sunday 28th May 23:20
ReverendCounter said:
That would have been enough for me, I would have got them both out of the room and then frightened the life out of him - never mind the screaming abuse that followed.
I agree. I'd have an unfair advantage with age, boxing and jiu jitsu training but thinking it through, because of the way he's always been i'm guilty of having an increased tolerance for the crap he comes out with too.As I typed and re read the first post, I can see how insane it all is too.
I don't think much can be done medically without his consent.
They're not going to section someone just for being a grumpy old man. There must be 100's of thousands of similar types up and down the country.
Your mum and brother need to take action for themselves. What is your brother doing still living at home in his 30's, Is that a permanent thing?
In my opinion and in light of not having all the facts he needs to sort himself out and your mum can move in with you until things are sorted out one way or another.
They're not going to section someone just for being a grumpy old man. There must be 100's of thousands of similar types up and down the country.
Your mum and brother need to take action for themselves. What is your brother doing still living at home in his 30's, Is that a permanent thing?
In my opinion and in light of not having all the facts he needs to sort himself out and your mum can move in with you until things are sorted out one way or another.
ChocolateFrog said:
What is your brother doing still living at home in his 30's, Is that a permanent thing?
It is a permanent thing, I'm of indian and Pakistani heritage. In our culture one son usually stays with the parents so he decided to be that son.Not sure it works like that much anymore everywhere, but he decided to stay home. He lives and mostly works from home in a tech role.
ChocolateFrog said:
They're not going to section someone just for being a grumpy old man. There must be 100's of thousands of similar types up and down the country.
My thoughts are this goes beyond a grumpy old man. He won't get medical help and if forced into it, he won't take his medicine. I feel stuck.Edited by TeamBigfoot on Sunday 28th May 23:32
I'll be of no help whatsoever, but can sympathise with what must feel like an impossible situation. My mum was diagnosed with Alzheimer's a couple of years ago and some of what you are describing really resonates with me. She has always had a short temper and been quite fiery, sometimes unreasonable. Alzheimer's, as well as destroying her short-term memory, has amplified these traits of her personality and made my dad's life very difficult. Lots of shouting and swearing, accusations of infidelity based on nothing more than fantasy. It's possible your dad has something similar, if not the same. As mentioned by a previous poster, talking to his GP could help as you can provide all this information and at least get it on his records.
One thing you'll discover quickly is the fact that unless he is willing to accept help it will be almost impossible to get anyone to help because you can't force him to attend appointments, take medication or do anything he doesn't want to do. We are not yet at the stage where my dad cannot cope but once that threshold is crossed I believe the only course of action is some kind of forced relocation to assisted care - something I'm not looking forward to.
Something else I've learned, which may not apply to your situation, is that ultimatums don't work. Neither does logic. In my mum's mind she is entirely in the right and no amount of reasoning or ultimatums or structured arguments can convince her otherwise. I've tried talking to her a couple of times when she's really bad, but she doesn't see it as a problem with her mind, only a problem with their marriage which is "none of your business". It's so sad to watch as they've been married 50 years and have always been faithful to each other. The only thing which has any effect is for my dad to get up and go out for a few minutes; generally she has calmed down and moved on to something else when he gets home.
Best of luck to you, it's not a nice position to be in.
One thing you'll discover quickly is the fact that unless he is willing to accept help it will be almost impossible to get anyone to help because you can't force him to attend appointments, take medication or do anything he doesn't want to do. We are not yet at the stage where my dad cannot cope but once that threshold is crossed I believe the only course of action is some kind of forced relocation to assisted care - something I'm not looking forward to.
Something else I've learned, which may not apply to your situation, is that ultimatums don't work. Neither does logic. In my mum's mind she is entirely in the right and no amount of reasoning or ultimatums or structured arguments can convince her otherwise. I've tried talking to her a couple of times when she's really bad, but she doesn't see it as a problem with her mind, only a problem with their marriage which is "none of your business". It's so sad to watch as they've been married 50 years and have always been faithful to each other. The only thing which has any effect is for my dad to get up and go out for a few minutes; generally she has calmed down and moved on to something else when he gets home.
Best of luck to you, it's not a nice position to be in.
sicarumba said:
One thing you'll discover quickly is the fact that unless he is willing to accept help it will be almost impossible to get anyone to help because you can't force him to attend appointments, take medication or do anything he doesn't want to do.
Something else I've learned, which may not apply to your situation, is that ultimatums don't work. Neither does logic. In my mum's mind she is entirely in the right and no amount of reasoning or ultimatums or structured arguments can convince her otherwise. I've tried talking to her a couple of times when she's really bad, but she doesn't see it as a problem with her mind, only a problem with their marriage which is "none of your business". It's so sad to watch as they've been married 50 years and have always been faithful to each other. The only thing which has any effect is for my dad to get up and go out for a few minutes; generally she has calmed down and moved on to something else when he gets home.
Best of luck to you, it's not a nice position to be in.
Thank you for your post. This position sounds similar without the memory loss (sorry to hear about this). Something else I've learned, which may not apply to your situation, is that ultimatums don't work. Neither does logic. In my mum's mind she is entirely in the right and no amount of reasoning or ultimatums or structured arguments can convince her otherwise. I've tried talking to her a couple of times when she's really bad, but she doesn't see it as a problem with her mind, only a problem with their marriage which is "none of your business". It's so sad to watch as they've been married 50 years and have always been faithful to each other. The only thing which has any effect is for my dad to get up and go out for a few minutes; generally she has calmed down and moved on to something else when he gets home.
Best of luck to you, it's not a nice position to be in.
He will never ever accept that he's done anything wrong. Thinking back on childhood, I don't remember him ever apologising to anyone for anything. It feels like they do try to get away and let him calm down but he's very good at holding grudges, so will go on about stuff thats all made up in his head for days.
Its really sad that they're being treated like this. I feel like I have a place to get away but they're stuck in it. Financial reliance and place to live is lorded over them but they won't leave - and he won't let them. I told her to come over to mine tomorrow (i offered to pick her up) but she mentioned that she doesn't want a warzone when she goes back
OP I'm from the same heritage myself and although your father may be be starting to show signs of mental health issues it's almost even worse as our elders (as I'm sure you've experienced) are full of pride.
They can never ever admit they're wrong, which makes it very difficult for anyone to help. He 'sounds' like he may be rather controlling and the thought of him surrendering some control of his life to a GP or family may be terrifying him.
It sounds like you're there for your mum and maybe that's the only thing you can do in the short term.
I don't know your family situation but it could be that he may respond a little better to one of his elders/extended family maybe convincing him he needs to do something about his 'health' and make no mention of his attitude.
Good luck.
They can never ever admit they're wrong, which makes it very difficult for anyone to help. He 'sounds' like he may be rather controlling and the thought of him surrendering some control of his life to a GP or family may be terrifying him.
It sounds like you're there for your mum and maybe that's the only thing you can do in the short term.
I don't know your family situation but it could be that he may respond a little better to one of his elders/extended family maybe convincing him he needs to do something about his 'health' and make no mention of his attitude.
Good luck.
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Man this sounds really rough.
I’m guessing it’s not an option given the cultural issues here, but divorce would see 50% assets and pension split, which it sounds like would be enough for your mum to live happily in peace with a good relation with you and your family and your father in whichever condition/ level of familial Integration he chooses.
It doesn’t sound like a life for your mum.
So sorry to hear, sounds really horrific to have to deal with!
I’m guessing it’s not an option given the cultural issues here, but divorce would see 50% assets and pension split, which it sounds like would be enough for your mum to live happily in peace with a good relation with you and your family and your father in whichever condition/ level of familial Integration he chooses.
It doesn’t sound like a life for your mum.
So sorry to hear, sounds really horrific to have to deal with!
Vasco said:
Sorry to hear of the general situation. I assume he has no brother (or other male he respects) who could help ?
Given the cultural and heritage issues, are there no opportunities to obtain some help from community elders or any Asian version of Social Services.
On the surface that seems a good idea,maybe to shame him into behaving better providing there are no mental health problems.Given the cultural and heritage issues, are there no opportunities to obtain some help from community elders or any Asian version of Social Services.
But I imagine the brother and mother would receive a backlash from him.
An awful situation.
Hi, the thing that causes bells to loudly ring with me is that you have an older person (so degenerative brain disease becomes more of a possibility), a relatively recent change in behaviour over months exacerbating previous personality traits. There is an overstepping of the usual cultural norms, above just being moody.
What I would be concerned about is fronto - temporal brain disease, typically it gives disinhibition in behaviour both verbal and physical. Essentially a subtype of dementia.
Bottom line is that he needs to be assessed, initially by the gp, but I would ask about being seen by an elder care psychiatrist. Pretty urgently, we used to be able to arrange for domiciliary assessments by consultants, no longer sure if that exists.
Yes, there are physical illnesses that will cause problems with behavior, but the lessening of control around acceptable behaviour is the major issue
What I would be concerned about is fronto - temporal brain disease, typically it gives disinhibition in behaviour both verbal and physical. Essentially a subtype of dementia.
Bottom line is that he needs to be assessed, initially by the gp, but I would ask about being seen by an elder care psychiatrist. Pretty urgently, we used to be able to arrange for domiciliary assessments by consultants, no longer sure if that exists.
Yes, there are physical illnesses that will cause problems with behavior, but the lessening of control around acceptable behaviour is the major issue
Bone Rat said:
Hi, the thing that causes bells to loudly ring with me is that you have an older person (so degenerative brain disease becomes more of a possibility), a relatively recent change in behaviour over months exacerbating previous personality traits. There is an overstepping of the usual cultural norms, above just being moody.
What I would be concerned about is fronto - temporal brain disease, typically it gives disinhibition in behaviour both verbal and physical. Essentially a subtype of dementia.
Bottom line is that he needs to be assessed, initially by the gp, but I would ask about being seen by an elder care psychiatrist. Pretty urgently, we used to be able to arrange for domiciliary assessments by consultants, no longer sure if that exists.
Yes, there are physical illnesses that will cause problems with behavior, but the lessening of control around acceptable behaviour is the major issue
Referral to older peoples community mental health team would make sense. They can do home assessment but more than likely would be a team member - nurse or OT (like most of the NHS it's designed to stop patients seeing consultants)What I would be concerned about is fronto - temporal brain disease, typically it gives disinhibition in behaviour both verbal and physical. Essentially a subtype of dementia.
Bottom line is that he needs to be assessed, initially by the gp, but I would ask about being seen by an elder care psychiatrist. Pretty urgently, we used to be able to arrange for domiciliary assessments by consultants, no longer sure if that exists.
Yes, there are physical illnesses that will cause problems with behavior, but the lessening of control around acceptable behaviour is the major issue
My take on this - Pakistani - not particularly relevant unless interpreter needed. Although he conforms to a stereotype, IME no culture has a monopoly on patriarchy and domestic tyranny. I think a lot of men don't respond well to the inevitable change of centre of gravity in families when grandchildren are born. After a period where they might have enjoyed undivided attention, grandchildren represent competition.
Lifelong traits ???autistic spectrum - meltdowns when things don't go to plan. Maybe your visit upset his routine.
Getting worse in old age. All mental health problems tend to make us become a bit of a caricature of ourselves. The common issues are depression and dementia. Alzheimers and vascular dementia - VaD being relatively more common in Asians due to the predisposition to diabetes and arterial disease. FTD is not uncommon but zebra diagnosis rather than a horse.
Clues that it's dementia are language and memory problems. If English is not his first language you might notice this begins to degrade before his first language.
Simple things like hearing loss can cause serious problems in someone who is habitually rigid and tetchy.
If you're concerned about safety - Local Authority safeguarding,
Edited by oddman on Tuesday 30th May 09:27
Rough situation and sounds similar to my parents when my dad was alive, albeit without the cultural similarities.
His was dementia but as he was a hypochondriac he was always at his GP or going for tests in hospital and generally complied with advice until the latter stages.
Sadly until your dad needs to rely more on your mum/brother to look after him, there isn't much you can do if he is uncooperative. Unfortunately the chances of him becoming violent are high, as the illness worsens. Protecting your mum and brother has to be the priority.
His was dementia but as he was a hypochondriac he was always at his GP or going for tests in hospital and generally complied with advice until the latter stages.
Sadly until your dad needs to rely more on your mum/brother to look after him, there isn't much you can do if he is uncooperative. Unfortunately the chances of him becoming violent are high, as the illness worsens. Protecting your mum and brother has to be the priority.
Although a different herritage, I cant help but think that it sounds like a check up should be carried our, we saw some strange changes in my father that it tok a few years to realise was actually early stages of dementia, and what can be done to help slow the issue is best stated as early as possible. Also speak with your brother and mother privately as often they see the symptoms but do not wish to discuss even with the family, or even acknowledge to themselves.
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