Terrible dentist experience with injections. Gordon?
Discussion
Hi. Asking for resident dentist Gordon to comment (or any other dentists if you are reading).
I have an ongoing battle with gum disease which, despite my best efforts at home, means I need a 'deep clean' with the scaler and ultrasonic cleaner every 6 months. This is a problem because my gums are so sensitive that both are simply not an option without first having my gums numbed with injections. To further complicate matters, I have weak enamel in some areas from acid reflux erosion so the ultrasonic cleaner leaves my teeth extremely sensitive, so I require varnish applying afterwards to protect them. For reference, I am an NHS patient.
To provde a little backstory and context, my previous dentist (who has now moved on and gone private) was absolutely superb. When he said "you'll feel a small scratch" before applying the 4 injections to my gum line, that was exactly what it was and I barely felt them at all. They were applied very shallow and the needle only in for maybe 2 seconds max. My gum line instantly numbed and he could start with the ultrasonic and scaler tool straight away without me feeling any pain. After finishing, the varnish was applied and off I went, paid my £65 for a tier 2 and was a happy bunny.
I was back for my 6 monthly clean up on Tuesday (already been for a check-up last week) and there's a new dentist now. She gave me the injections (8 !) but they were all into the deep pockets of my mouth, nowhere near the gums! She put them ALL in REALLY deep, keeping them in for about 10 seconds each, and wiggled them around. It felt like she was injecting them into my skull
. It was excruciantly painful. I remember when I once had some root work done and an extraction that the injections given were in these locations, but not as deep as these.
It was clear for her to see the pain and anger in my face so when she asked if I was OK I commented that I'd had the exact same work done by my previous dentist only 6 months ago and barely felt the injections.
"Why do you need to shove them so deep, wiggle them around and leave them in for 10 seconds each?"
She retorted, "this is my procedure, I don't care what other dentists do. I am fully qualified - do you want to see my certificate? I can get that for you right away."
Blimey. I was tempted to make a comment about a cornflakes packet, but decided against it whilst she was still wielding sharp tools.
The deeper sectors of my gums (ie. NOT the gum line where she'd be working on!), mouth and lips quickly went numb and she began with the ultrasonic cleaner. It immediately became obvious that the gum line area was NOT numb at all and the pain was so intense that I was pulling away her in the chair and putting my hand up for her to stop. She was clearly annoyed and said "your mouth is numb now, you should not be feeling any pain, it is just in your head (!). You need to keep still and stop trying to pull away". I somehow managed to survive the next 10 minutes of torture although sweat was pissing off me by the end of it from the pain.
There was virtually no communication after she told me she was done and her departing remark was "I think you should consider going private for your next appointment" (!)
It was only after I had paid and left and felt the cold breeze against my teeth that I realised she had not applied the varnish that she said she woudl. I was in two frames of mine whether to return, but she was already 45 minutes late when I was finally called in so would have been a waste of time. Predictably, I've had 2 days of pain whether I'd tried to eat or drink anything, because my teeth have been left exposed with no protection.
To say I'm bloody angry is an understatement, but I'm also aware this is the lottery of being an NHS dental patient where you get a fresh dentist straight out of the school each new year. But that said, that's no excuse for the patient to receive such a horrible experience and I feel like writing a formal complaint to the practice owner about this sadist. They do have 2 other NHS dentists working there and am wondering if it's possible to transfer to one of them, or is making a complaint a surefire way of getting myself deleted? How does it work in reality?
I'd also like to ask your opinions of her applications of the injections. Based on my previous experience, this seems totally wrong to me as they weren't even effective for the area she was working on. All I achieved was a LOT of pain and suffered the rest of the day unable to speak, trying not to dribble everywhere and not swallow my tongue that I could barely feel.
Thanks for reading.
I have an ongoing battle with gum disease which, despite my best efforts at home, means I need a 'deep clean' with the scaler and ultrasonic cleaner every 6 months. This is a problem because my gums are so sensitive that both are simply not an option without first having my gums numbed with injections. To further complicate matters, I have weak enamel in some areas from acid reflux erosion so the ultrasonic cleaner leaves my teeth extremely sensitive, so I require varnish applying afterwards to protect them. For reference, I am an NHS patient.
To provde a little backstory and context, my previous dentist (who has now moved on and gone private) was absolutely superb. When he said "you'll feel a small scratch" before applying the 4 injections to my gum line, that was exactly what it was and I barely felt them at all. They were applied very shallow and the needle only in for maybe 2 seconds max. My gum line instantly numbed and he could start with the ultrasonic and scaler tool straight away without me feeling any pain. After finishing, the varnish was applied and off I went, paid my £65 for a tier 2 and was a happy bunny.
I was back for my 6 monthly clean up on Tuesday (already been for a check-up last week) and there's a new dentist now. She gave me the injections (8 !) but they were all into the deep pockets of my mouth, nowhere near the gums! She put them ALL in REALLY deep, keeping them in for about 10 seconds each, and wiggled them around. It felt like she was injecting them into my skull
. It was excruciantly painful. I remember when I once had some root work done and an extraction that the injections given were in these locations, but not as deep as these. It was clear for her to see the pain and anger in my face so when she asked if I was OK I commented that I'd had the exact same work done by my previous dentist only 6 months ago and barely felt the injections.
"Why do you need to shove them so deep, wiggle them around and leave them in for 10 seconds each?"
She retorted, "this is my procedure, I don't care what other dentists do. I am fully qualified - do you want to see my certificate? I can get that for you right away."
Blimey. I was tempted to make a comment about a cornflakes packet, but decided against it whilst she was still wielding sharp tools.
The deeper sectors of my gums (ie. NOT the gum line where she'd be working on!), mouth and lips quickly went numb and she began with the ultrasonic cleaner. It immediately became obvious that the gum line area was NOT numb at all and the pain was so intense that I was pulling away her in the chair and putting my hand up for her to stop. She was clearly annoyed and said "your mouth is numb now, you should not be feeling any pain, it is just in your head (!). You need to keep still and stop trying to pull away". I somehow managed to survive the next 10 minutes of torture although sweat was pissing off me by the end of it from the pain.
There was virtually no communication after she told me she was done and her departing remark was "I think you should consider going private for your next appointment" (!)
It was only after I had paid and left and felt the cold breeze against my teeth that I realised she had not applied the varnish that she said she woudl. I was in two frames of mine whether to return, but she was already 45 minutes late when I was finally called in so would have been a waste of time. Predictably, I've had 2 days of pain whether I'd tried to eat or drink anything, because my teeth have been left exposed with no protection.
To say I'm bloody angry is an understatement, but I'm also aware this is the lottery of being an NHS dental patient where you get a fresh dentist straight out of the school each new year. But that said, that's no excuse for the patient to receive such a horrible experience and I feel like writing a formal complaint to the practice owner about this sadist. They do have 2 other NHS dentists working there and am wondering if it's possible to transfer to one of them, or is making a complaint a surefire way of getting myself deleted? How does it work in reality?
I'd also like to ask your opinions of her applications of the injections. Based on my previous experience, this seems totally wrong to me as they weren't even effective for the area she was working on. All I achieved was a LOT of pain and suffered the rest of the day unable to speak, trying not to dribble everywhere and not swallow my tongue that I could barely feel.
Thanks for reading.
That sounds s
t.
I had a painful experience last year with a dentist who swore his work was 'pain free'. After that I did a lot of research on Facebook and found someone else who has been great. I made sure I didn't get in the chair until I'd explained all my worries and had her talk through what she was going to do, and how she was going to ensure I didn't feel pain.
t.I had a painful experience last year with a dentist who swore his work was 'pain free'. After that I did a lot of research on Facebook and found someone else who has been great. I made sure I didn't get in the chair until I'd explained all my worries and had her talk through what she was going to do, and how she was going to ensure I didn't feel pain.
No need to feel anything on injections, maybe a small scratch as you say. Technique is important.
Apart from topical anaesthesia on the site of injection (still need to wait for that to work before injecting) it’s about having anaesthetic close to body temperature and injecting slowly to allow it to disperse through the soft tissues at caraté they can cope. If done like that it’s not painful at all.
20 years of oral surgery experience both simple and complex. No issues.
Apart from topical anaesthesia on the site of injection (still need to wait for that to work before injecting) it’s about having anaesthetic close to body temperature and injecting slowly to allow it to disperse through the soft tissues at caraté they can cope. If done like that it’s not painful at all.
20 years of oral surgery experience both simple and complex. No issues.
I can't understand why dentists don't apply that gel topical procedure to the site of intended injection by default. I've had the gel applied and never felt a thing from the injection.
I feel the 'pain' of the OP with the NHS system. My old NHS dentist was superb and I never felt like a patient. His skill was second to none and I could get an appointment within a few days. Then when he retired this new outfit moved in, the dentist only works 3-days a week, comes from a family/practice that has several private surgeries around the area and it now takes at least 2-months to be seen. In fairness there's no signposting me to private treament (which is what I expected) albeit the new dentist cannot undertake all the treatments my previous one could.
There must be an 'angle' taking on a large NHS practice otherwise as other dentists have commented on here running an NHS practice is a loss leader.
I feel the 'pain' of the OP with the NHS system. My old NHS dentist was superb and I never felt like a patient. His skill was second to none and I could get an appointment within a few days. Then when he retired this new outfit moved in, the dentist only works 3-days a week, comes from a family/practice that has several private surgeries around the area and it now takes at least 2-months to be seen. In fairness there's no signposting me to private treament (which is what I expected) albeit the new dentist cannot undertake all the treatments my previous one could.
There must be an 'angle' taking on a large NHS practice otherwise as other dentists have commented on here running an NHS practice is a loss leader.
Armitage.Shanks said:
I can't understand why dentists don't apply that gel topical procedure to the site of intended injection by default. I've had the gel applied and never felt a thing from the injection.
After seeing the pain I was going through from her doing the top row injections, she got a gel pad and did the bottom gum line before going to town with another 4 injections, but it made absolutely no difference. As I say, my mouth, tongue and lips were completely numb from the 8 jabs, but just not where my gum line was, hence nearly bouncing off the ceiling as she was angle grinding the tartar out of the crevices in my gums when my nerve endings were still very much 'alive' and NOT numbed. This leads me to think that her applying the jabs deep in the roof and bottom of my mouth, miles away from where she was working was why I felt it all. Why did I not feel a thing from the other dentist who only used HALF the number of injections and barely touched the needle on my gums (near the actual teeth) for literally 2 seconds max?Another thing I noticed is that it felt like she was using a larger bore injection needle whereas the previous time it felt tiny in comparison - just a sharp scratch, exactly as he said it would be. Do the dentists use different bore size needles ?
Topical gel should not be applied in all areas, for example an id nerve block shouldn’t have topical applied due to the location.
Like I said, all about technique. You can get areas numb with an injection far away, for example when you use a nerve block.
If your gums are very inflamed it is possible that some mild discomfort is felt on the first visits but nothing like you describe.
On the internet it’s difficult to give better advice but I suggest try a different dentist to compare. Some dentist are more sympathetic (“kinder”) than others. Saying that it’s very simple to give an injection without you feeling it. I rarely use topical gel and none of my patients ever even flinch or feel anything when I inject.
I do mostly oral surgery, extractions where most times they don’t even notice the tooth is out. Maybe I am lucky but never had any issue with anaesthesia.
Like I said, all about technique. You can get areas numb with an injection far away, for example when you use a nerve block.
If your gums are very inflamed it is possible that some mild discomfort is felt on the first visits but nothing like you describe.
On the internet it’s difficult to give better advice but I suggest try a different dentist to compare. Some dentist are more sympathetic (“kinder”) than others. Saying that it’s very simple to give an injection without you feeling it. I rarely use topical gel and none of my patients ever even flinch or feel anything when I inject.
I do mostly oral surgery, extractions where most times they don’t even notice the tooth is out. Maybe I am lucky but never had any issue with anaesthesia.
Try a different dentist isn't easy around our way where they are all fully booked.
Will not go to the dentist who destroyed a tooth and left me with 3 years of niggling ache and tried the other ones in town. They'd only take private patients.
Eventually got an appointment with another dentist in the same surgery. Booked it in the beginning of January the appointment is in April.
Will not go to the dentist who destroyed a tooth and left me with 3 years of niggling ache and tried the other ones in town. They'd only take private patients.
Eventually got an appointment with another dentist in the same surgery. Booked it in the beginning of January the appointment is in April.
Driller said:
Hi r3g. Can you describe where precisely in your mouth the injections were given by the first dentist? Was it just at the front top and bottom?
Impossible to be precise as obviously I couldn't see 
but I am 100% sure they were injected close to the top, sort of in between the teeth if that makes sense? I had 4 done, 2 front and 2 back, but they were 1 each at front top and bottom backs (big build-up) and and then 1 right side front lower and 1 right side back upper. I barely felt them and although I had big reservations when he said he was going to start, 10 seconds after giving me them, I need not have worried as they numbed those areas of my gums very quickly and dare I say it, it was quite a pleasant experience knowing all the crud was being blasted out and there was no discomfort or pain whatsoever. He could have continued doing it all day and I'd have been fine with it.I found a set of teeth and gums on the internet and have marked where it felt like I was injected on the front side: https://i.imgur.com/2vSYU2I.png . Yellow is where my previous dentist injected me (or felt like it), red is where the new dentist injected me to do the same work, but also shoved the needle into my gums for the full length so that I could feel it scraping some bone or something crunchy (my skull?) when she wiggled it around for 10 seconds.
Where would you dentist guys here insert the needle to numb up the gum line to do an ultrasonic clean for someone with inflamed gums? Who is right?
Edited by r3g on Thursday 2nd February 22:54
r3g said:
Driller said:
Hi r3g. Can you describe where precisely in your mouth the injections were given by the first dentist? Was it just at the front top and bottom?
Impossible to be precise as obviously I couldn't see but I am 100% sure they were injected close to the top, sort of in between the teeth if that makes sense? I had 4 done, 2 front and 2 back, but they were 1 each at front top and bottom backs (big build-up) and and then 1 right side front lower and 1 right side back upper. I barely felt them and although I had big reservations when he said he was going to start, 10 seconds after giving me them, I need not have worried as they numbed those areas of my gums very quickly and dare I say it, it was quite a pleasant experience knowing all the crud was being blasted out and there was no discomfort or pain whatsoever. He could have continued doing it all day and I'd have been fine with it.I found a set of teeth and gums on the internet and have marked where it felt like I was injected on the front side: https://i.imgur.com/2vSYU2I.png . Yellow is where my previous dentist injected me (or felt like it), red is where the new dentist injected me to do the same work, but also shoved the needle into my gums for the full length so that I could feel it scraping some bone or something crunchy (my skull?) when she wiggled it around for 10 seconds.
Where would you dentist guys here insert the needle to numb up the gum line to do an ultrasonic clean for someone with inflamed gums? Who is right?
Edited by r3g on Thursday 2nd February 22:54
This will numb up your incisor teeth which are most often the culprits in sensitivity during scaling.
By the sound of it, the second dentist has tried to numb up more of your mouth and has used either "intraligamental injection or injection into the harder attached gingivae" which is more powerful and generalised but much more uncomfortable.
Next-time try asking for the infiltration version above and let us know how it goes
Driller said:
Ok so it sounds to me as though the first guy (the one you liked) has given you you "infiltration anaesthesia in the non attached gingivae (gums), bilaterally in the mandibular lateral incisor and maxillary central incisor regions".
yeah my thoughts exactly i don't mind admitting i hate dental injections in the past but it isn't an issue at all with my current dentist.
the pain you feel is apparently due to the pressure needed to get through very dense tissue. he uses a machine for instead which has a very fine tube fed needle. it feeds at a much lower rate so takes a minute or two but is absolutely pain free. complete game changer.
my dentist does love a gadget, he 3d scanned my mouth last time i was there as i can't manage to do an upper impression without gagging, and has previously made an absolutely perfect ceramic crown on a table top cnc machine whilst i wait. complete game changer over the NHS experience, though i'm glad that its work who pay for my dental cover!
Driller said:
Ok so it sounds to me as though the first guy (the one you liked) has given you you "infiltration anaesthesia in the non attached gingivae (gums), bilaterally in the mandibular lateral incisor and maxillary central incisor regions".
This will numb up your incisor teeth which are most often the culprits in sensitivity during scaling.
By the sound of it, the second dentist has tried to numb up more of your mouth and has used either "intraligamental injection or injection into the harder attached gingivae" which is more powerful and generalised but much more uncomfortable.
Next-time try asking for the infiltration version above and let us know how it goes
'Driller', thanks for the info. Do the former have small/narrower needles compared to the latter? I wonder then if that was really the cause of the vast difference in experience rather than her technique? However, I have had injections before for extractions, root work and fillings and although definitely unpleasant and painful momentarily, none of them left me with a hate for dentists and injections in the future... until this latest session.This will numb up your incisor teeth which are most often the culprits in sensitivity during scaling.
By the sound of it, the second dentist has tried to numb up more of your mouth and has used either "intraligamental injection or injection into the harder attached gingivae" which is more powerful and generalised but much more uncomfortable.
Next-time try asking for the infiltration version above and let us know how it goes
r3g said:
Driller said:
Ok so it sounds to me as though the first guy (the one you liked) has given you you "infiltration anaesthesia in the non attached gingivae (gums), bilaterally in the mandibular lateral incisor and maxillary central incisor regions".
This will numb up your incisor teeth which are most often the culprits in sensitivity during scaling.
By the sound of it, the second dentist has tried to numb up more of your mouth and has used either "intraligamental injection or injection into the harder attached gingivae" which is more powerful and generalised but much more uncomfortable.
Next-time try asking for the infiltration version above and let us know how it goes
'Driller', thanks for the info. Do the former have small/narrower needles compared to the latter? I wonder then if that was really the cause of the vast difference in experience rather than her technique? However, I have had injections before for extractions, root work and fillings and although definitely unpleasant and painful momentarily, none of them left me with a hate for dentists and injections in the future... until this latest session.This will numb up your incisor teeth which are most often the culprits in sensitivity during scaling.
By the sound of it, the second dentist has tried to numb up more of your mouth and has used either "intraligamental injection or injection into the harder attached gingivae" which is more powerful and generalised but much more uncomfortable.
Next-time try asking for the infiltration version above and let us know how it goes
But this isn’t what what would have made a difference, it would have been the fact that the first guy put the anaesthetic under the thin “floppy” gum (alveolar mucosa) which is further away from you teeth. This has space underneath it where the liquid goes so the liquid is not under pressure.
When you inject into the tooth ligament or into keratinised gingival (the gum around the necks of teeth) it’s more uncomfortable because the gum is much harder and there is no space for the liquid to go into and so it is put in under pressure.
RED= attached gingivae
BLUE= alveolar mucosa (floppy with a space underneath)
Edited by Driller on Sunday 5th February 07:59
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