Coroners court following suicide
Discussion
Difficult one playing on my mind
Long story short - over the last 5+ years my brother was in and out of mental health care with Delusional Schizophrenia (heavy cannabis smoker for 30 years). 1st time sectioned he came to live with me, wife, kids for 6 months. Since then he had a flat, was functioning and would speak to me/parents every so often. He was ok in Jan, had a job, same chat as last 5 years "people were after him", nothing ever happened so it had all become "normalised". Early March he called, was agitated, wanted me to call police. No. I told him to call 111 which he did was getting help.
We now know the details - the next week he was admitted voluntarily to hospital for attempting to set fire to himself with lighter fluid. He was then allowed home 2 weeks later under a home mental health team. A few days later he was found again on the street acting suspiciously with lighter fluid. He was taken by police to a place of safety, assessed under the mental health act and was discharged back to same home support team. A few hrs later he again bought lighter fluid, sadly the rest is history... We received a late night call, he had 85% burns. We never saw him, seemed no point. Each day he slowly went down hill and life support was removed 5 days later. We managed to get some organs donated.
The court papers are 150+ pages of evidence police, fire officer, witnesses, Dr's, root cause analysis so alot to take in. Its now been adjourned twice and the root cause analysis has been "amended", its also being contested by some of the Dr involved on what sounds like some very detailed mental heath act points. The European Convention on Human rights "right to life" has been mentioned. Its now slated for 3 court days (was one)
Ive been googling and this case is v similar https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff77160d0...
Everyone seems to be assigned lawyers, maybe its standard process one witness is a senior Dr/legislator who wrote parts of the Mental Health Act. Not having any legal/mental know-how im in the dark who or were to go next. Weve had some help from the local NHS at a practical and emotional level but not legal. Im assuming costs (no legal aid here) for pre trial work and 3 days could run towards £10k.
Been a tough time for the family and my poor parents. It feels like whats the point - hes gone, he was very ill, if he was sectioned this time, what about next time? Or time after? I also get 100's of ppl shout "help" every week, the psychologists job to identify the seriousness of the risk and this is the centre of the case - was it done right?
On a practical level, my wife wants to go to court for full 3 days. I don't, I'm happy with Teams/zoom.
I really dont know where to go next so interested in hearing any experiences here.
RIP little bro
Long story short - over the last 5+ years my brother was in and out of mental health care with Delusional Schizophrenia (heavy cannabis smoker for 30 years). 1st time sectioned he came to live with me, wife, kids for 6 months. Since then he had a flat, was functioning and would speak to me/parents every so often. He was ok in Jan, had a job, same chat as last 5 years "people were after him", nothing ever happened so it had all become "normalised". Early March he called, was agitated, wanted me to call police. No. I told him to call 111 which he did was getting help.
We now know the details - the next week he was admitted voluntarily to hospital for attempting to set fire to himself with lighter fluid. He was then allowed home 2 weeks later under a home mental health team. A few days later he was found again on the street acting suspiciously with lighter fluid. He was taken by police to a place of safety, assessed under the mental health act and was discharged back to same home support team. A few hrs later he again bought lighter fluid, sadly the rest is history... We received a late night call, he had 85% burns. We never saw him, seemed no point. Each day he slowly went down hill and life support was removed 5 days later. We managed to get some organs donated.
The court papers are 150+ pages of evidence police, fire officer, witnesses, Dr's, root cause analysis so alot to take in. Its now been adjourned twice and the root cause analysis has been "amended", its also being contested by some of the Dr involved on what sounds like some very detailed mental heath act points. The European Convention on Human rights "right to life" has been mentioned. Its now slated for 3 court days (was one)
Ive been googling and this case is v similar https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff77160d0...
Everyone seems to be assigned lawyers, maybe its standard process one witness is a senior Dr/legislator who wrote parts of the Mental Health Act. Not having any legal/mental know-how im in the dark who or were to go next. Weve had some help from the local NHS at a practical and emotional level but not legal. Im assuming costs (no legal aid here) for pre trial work and 3 days could run towards £10k.
Been a tough time for the family and my poor parents. It feels like whats the point - hes gone, he was very ill, if he was sectioned this time, what about next time? Or time after? I also get 100's of ppl shout "help" every week, the psychologists job to identify the seriousness of the risk and this is the centre of the case - was it done right?
On a practical level, my wife wants to go to court for full 3 days. I don't, I'm happy with Teams/zoom.
I really dont know where to go next so interested in hearing any experiences here.
RIP little bro
So sorry for your loss
The Coroner is responsible for investigating the reasons how and why your brother passed away.
From what you have described various individuals and bodies will have had a "duty of care" towards your brother. For example was the decision to discharge him into the care of the local Mental Health team a reasonable and proportionate decision in the circumstances.
The Lawyers will be there to represent those individuals and bodies, anything said in the hearing could you be used in other proceedings.
At the conclusion of the hearing the Coroner can also make formal recommendations to other bodies if areas of concern are identified
If you have any concerns i would ring the Coroners dept and ask to speak to the "Coroners Officer" assigned to the case.
The Coroner is responsible for investigating the reasons how and why your brother passed away.
From what you have described various individuals and bodies will have had a "duty of care" towards your brother. For example was the decision to discharge him into the care of the local Mental Health team a reasonable and proportionate decision in the circumstances.
The Lawyers will be there to represent those individuals and bodies, anything said in the hearing could you be used in other proceedings.
At the conclusion of the hearing the Coroner can also make formal recommendations to other bodies if areas of concern are identified
If you have any concerns i would ring the Coroners dept and ask to speak to the "Coroners Officer" assigned to the case.
yep, ^^, and also my condolences
The inquest, as the name suggests, is an inquisitorial process where the coroner must answer the "statutory questions" - who died, the circumstances of the death (both medical cause and also how they came by their death), where and when they died. in law the coroner cannot deal with any other matters.
The coroner investigates the death by means of calling for reports and statements. It is usually the "how" that an inquest focuses on as the other questions are largely matters of fact.
As this death was due to unnatural causes an inquest must be covened in order to explore more fully the circumstances and to call witnesses to speak to their statments and provide testimony.
a verdict may be critical of the parts people or organisations may have played but cannot apportion blame. narrative verdicts are often recorded in which the coroner will discuss their reasoning and how they arrived at their conclusions.
jobs not being done may be part of that reasoning and the coroner will pose questions as part of that verdict. On occasion a coroner may communicate directly with people/organisations separately from the inquest on matters of specific concern or where recommendations may be made.
Any concerns over potentially criminal actions are referred back to the Police and it is not part of the coroner's role to determine negligence or liability. Issues such as these are investigated in other courts.
The inquest, as the name suggests, is an inquisitorial process where the coroner must answer the "statutory questions" - who died, the circumstances of the death (both medical cause and also how they came by their death), where and when they died. in law the coroner cannot deal with any other matters.
The coroner investigates the death by means of calling for reports and statements. It is usually the "how" that an inquest focuses on as the other questions are largely matters of fact.
As this death was due to unnatural causes an inquest must be covened in order to explore more fully the circumstances and to call witnesses to speak to their statments and provide testimony.
a verdict may be critical of the parts people or organisations may have played but cannot apportion blame. narrative verdicts are often recorded in which the coroner will discuss their reasoning and how they arrived at their conclusions.
jobs not being done may be part of that reasoning and the coroner will pose questions as part of that verdict. On occasion a coroner may communicate directly with people/organisations separately from the inquest on matters of specific concern or where recommendations may be made.
Any concerns over potentially criminal actions are referred back to the Police and it is not part of the coroner's role to determine negligence or liability. Issues such as these are investigated in other courts.
I have spent many years dealing with Coroners and the inquests process. Ed and Paul have given you very good advice on the role of the Coroner and the inquest process so there is no benefit in echoing their words again.
Given that there were a number of agencies involved it is not surprising that these agencies are each fielding a lawyer. This approach is standard in multi-agency inquests so should not concern you.
Turning to the question posed of whether you and the family need legal representation is a question I cannot answer as I do not know the full circumstances or what your family are wanting to achieve from the coronial process. There are a number of specialist inquest lawyers (Hudgell and Weightmans spring to mind) who will provide a set time period to advise you of your options free of charge.
Coroners Officers are very helpful people and are there to guide you through the process so don’t be afraid to reach out to them should anyone have any questions. You will be supported very well at the inquest. Note that once witnesses have given evidence, the lawyers and the Coroner will ask questions of the witness. You, or another member of your family will also be permitted to ask questions as well.
I’m sorry for the circumstances surrounding your need to write your post today and my thoughts go out to you.
May your little brother rest in peace and love.
Given that there were a number of agencies involved it is not surprising that these agencies are each fielding a lawyer. This approach is standard in multi-agency inquests so should not concern you.
Turning to the question posed of whether you and the family need legal representation is a question I cannot answer as I do not know the full circumstances or what your family are wanting to achieve from the coronial process. There are a number of specialist inquest lawyers (Hudgell and Weightmans spring to mind) who will provide a set time period to advise you of your options free of charge.
Coroners Officers are very helpful people and are there to guide you through the process so don’t be afraid to reach out to them should anyone have any questions. You will be supported very well at the inquest. Note that once witnesses have given evidence, the lawyers and the Coroner will ask questions of the witness. You, or another member of your family will also be permitted to ask questions as well.
I’m sorry for the circumstances surrounding your need to write your post today and my thoughts go out to you.
May your little brother rest in peace and love.
Edited by ADJimbo on Wednesday 30th November 23:56
Massive thank you for the detailed responses
ADJimbo - will look up company you mention. Ive also found the Mental Health Lawyers Asc www.mhla.co.uk/ so there are options out there
ADJimbo - will look up company you mention. Ive also found the Mental Health Lawyers Asc www.mhla.co.uk/ so there are options out there
I don’t know whether you have attended an inquest before? I’ve only ever attended one, which albeit very different circumstances was also where the victims had died in a fire.
It was around 20 years ago and I don’t know if processes have changed, but just to let you know that for the one I attended, the medical/post mortem details were horribly graphic. The only reason I’m saying that is that you may want to warn your wife/parents. We had no warning at all beforehand so it came as quite a shock.
It was around 20 years ago and I don’t know if processes have changed, but just to let you know that for the one I attended, the medical/post mortem details were horribly graphic. The only reason I’m saying that is that you may want to warn your wife/parents. We had no warning at all beforehand so it came as quite a shock.
Just one build on the helpful advice ADJimbo (and others) has given.
As brother of the deceased you are an “Interested Person”. This gives you some specific rights. You do not have to exercise them and you are not expected to obtain legal advice.
It’s worth looking up what this means (in addition to the summaries above) so you can decide if you need additional support.
It’s a specialist legal skill, so expect advice not to be cheap or available at any law firm. Those mentioned are good (I instruct Weightmans, albeit on entirely unrelated matters). I’ve used a guy at Knights in the past.
EDIT - apologies, I also meant to say that I’m very sorry to hear of the circumstances surrounding your brother’s death. Mental illness, however caused, can be so devastating.
As brother of the deceased you are an “Interested Person”. This gives you some specific rights. You do not have to exercise them and you are not expected to obtain legal advice.
It’s worth looking up what this means (in addition to the summaries above) so you can decide if you need additional support.
It’s a specialist legal skill, so expect advice not to be cheap or available at any law firm. Those mentioned are good (I instruct Weightmans, albeit on entirely unrelated matters). I’ve used a guy at Knights in the past.
EDIT - apologies, I also meant to say that I’m very sorry to hear of the circumstances surrounding your brother’s death. Mental illness, however caused, can be so devastating.
Edited by OMITN on Thursday 1st December 19:25
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