Surviving parent going into a nursing home.
Discussion
Looking increasingly like my mother will be going into a nursing home.
93 years old and quite well advanced with Dementia. Only child here and have no PoA. Been in hospital for about 6 weeks now and they've told me they'll be moving her to a home for a week or two to try and build here strength up. Not currently strong enough to stand so not sure what they're expecting to achieve!
She has her own property so, has anyone any experience on what the council can do regarding payment should they move here into a home full time? To be honest I can't see her ever being fit enough to go back to her own home.
Have Googled and found something where they can take a legal charge against the property which I don't have an issue with. Is there any other way they can do things?
The last people I wish to ask are the council themselves!
93 years old and quite well advanced with Dementia. Only child here and have no PoA. Been in hospital for about 6 weeks now and they've told me they'll be moving her to a home for a week or two to try and build here strength up. Not currently strong enough to stand so not sure what they're expecting to achieve!
She has her own property so, has anyone any experience on what the council can do regarding payment should they move here into a home full time? To be honest I can't see her ever being fit enough to go back to her own home.
Have Googled and found something where they can take a legal charge against the property which I don't have an issue with. Is there any other way they can do things?
The last people I wish to ask are the council themselves!
OP, your para 2, who exactly is "they"? There are differences between social care and Continuing Health Care CHC, and their funding, which might be useful to understand. You may need to be more precise in describing the exact scenario your mother and hence you are facing, and therefore who are the players and decision makers.
It is also worth knowing that the law underpinning social care is the same (but may differ among the UK nations) but its delivery may differ between county councils, especially costs and quality. There may also be a presumption by a council's Social Services team that the patient is at generally lower risk in their own home than in an institution
The Alzheimers UK website and the forum are worth exploring. Age UK may also be helpful
Do you have POA for finance and property? The one for health and welfare is ultimately less useful as the medical profession are empowered to take key decisions in the best interests of the patient
As next of kin, I'd recommend you need a trustable support network that can help guide you through the possible futures
It is also worth knowing that the law underpinning social care is the same (but may differ among the UK nations) but its delivery may differ between county councils, especially costs and quality. There may also be a presumption by a council's Social Services team that the patient is at generally lower risk in their own home than in an institution
The Alzheimers UK website and the forum are worth exploring. Age UK may also be helpful
Do you have POA for finance and property? The one for health and welfare is ultimately less useful as the medical profession are empowered to take key decisions in the best interests of the patient
As next of kin, I'd recommend you need a trustable support network that can help guide you through the possible futures
"They" are the Social / Welfare services based at the hospital she is in, the only person I can get to speak to is a Junior Social Worker.
I don't have PoA, spoke to her about this after my old fella died 8 years ago and she wouldn't wear it at all. There is no finance on the property either.
To put a very, very long story very succinctly there has been no love lost either way between us from as far back as I remember. She has no friends,hasn't had any for years and there is no other family as far as I know. She had 4 brothers that she disowned when she was in her 20's....according to my dad she just decided one day she didn't like them and that was it! To be blunt she's a nasty piece of work and always has been, she made my dads life a misery and the result is....no friends. When the old fella died there were almost 100 people at the service. at the 'do' afterwards there were 11 people and that speaks volumes!
Not concerned re any inheritance as it's never been something I've ever relied on. She has quite a good monthly income from various pensions but not enough to cover care home fees. I had a free 30 minute chat with the solicitor where both her and my wills are kept and she said there is a method of achieving PoA through a court with her having quite severe dementia but she warned that the costs could be prohibitive and the estate isn't huge.
Simply asking if there is another way the council might obtain care home funding besides a charge on her property. As said, no issue here with them doing that, just seeing if there are alternatives.
All I'm trying to be is forewarned for when the Social / Welfare tell me has to go into a home permanently.
I don't have PoA, spoke to her about this after my old fella died 8 years ago and she wouldn't wear it at all. There is no finance on the property either.
To put a very, very long story very succinctly there has been no love lost either way between us from as far back as I remember. She has no friends,hasn't had any for years and there is no other family as far as I know. She had 4 brothers that she disowned when she was in her 20's....according to my dad she just decided one day she didn't like them and that was it! To be blunt she's a nasty piece of work and always has been, she made my dads life a misery and the result is....no friends. When the old fella died there were almost 100 people at the service. at the 'do' afterwards there were 11 people and that speaks volumes!
Not concerned re any inheritance as it's never been something I've ever relied on. She has quite a good monthly income from various pensions but not enough to cover care home fees. I had a free 30 minute chat with the solicitor where both her and my wills are kept and she said there is a method of achieving PoA through a court with her having quite severe dementia but she warned that the costs could be prohibitive and the estate isn't huge.
Simply asking if there is another way the council might obtain care home funding besides a charge on her property. As said, no issue here with them doing that, just seeing if there are alternatives.
All I'm trying to be is forewarned for when the Social / Welfare tell me has to go into a home permanently.
moktabe said:
"They" are the Social / Welfare services based at the hospital she is in, the only person I can get to speak to is a Junior Social Worker.
I don't have PoA, spoke to her about this after my old fella died 8 years ago and she wouldn't wear it at all. There is no finance on the property either.
To put a very, very long story very succinctly there has been no love lost either way between us from as far back as I remember. She has no friends,hasn't had any for years and there is no other family as far as I know. She had 4 brothers that she disowned when she was in her 20's....according to my dad she just decided one day she didn't like them and that was it! To be blunt she's a nasty piece of work and always has been, she made my dads life a misery and the result is....no friends. When the old fella died there were almost 100 people at the service. at the 'do' afterwards there were 11 people and that speaks volumes!
Not concerned re any inheritance as it's never been something I've ever relied on. She has quite a good monthly income from various pensions but not enough to cover care home fees. I had a free 30 minute chat with the solicitor where both her and my wills are kept and she said there is a method of achieving PoA through a court with her having quite severe dementia but she warned that the costs could be prohibitive and the estate isn't huge.
Simply asking if there is another way the council might obtain care home funding besides a charge on her property. As said, no issue here with them doing that, just seeing if there are alternatives.
All I'm trying to be is forewarned for when the Social / Welfare tell me has to go into a home permanently.
Here in Coventry (at least) they give you time to sell the property while the care home costs add up. It's then put into a trust (dont know what sort) where the care home costs are taken from. Once that is down to 8k (I think) then the Council take overI don't have PoA, spoke to her about this after my old fella died 8 years ago and she wouldn't wear it at all. There is no finance on the property either.
To put a very, very long story very succinctly there has been no love lost either way between us from as far back as I remember. She has no friends,hasn't had any for years and there is no other family as far as I know. She had 4 brothers that she disowned when she was in her 20's....according to my dad she just decided one day she didn't like them and that was it! To be blunt she's a nasty piece of work and always has been, she made my dads life a misery and the result is....no friends. When the old fella died there were almost 100 people at the service. at the 'do' afterwards there were 11 people and that speaks volumes!
Not concerned re any inheritance as it's never been something I've ever relied on. She has quite a good monthly income from various pensions but not enough to cover care home fees. I had a free 30 minute chat with the solicitor where both her and my wills are kept and she said there is a method of achieving PoA through a court with her having quite severe dementia but she warned that the costs could be prohibitive and the estate isn't huge.
Simply asking if there is another way the council might obtain care home funding besides a charge on her property. As said, no issue here with them doing that, just seeing if there are alternatives.
All I'm trying to be is forewarned for when the Social / Welfare tell me has to go into a home permanently.
I'd just wait until they contact you
In the short term, I'd try to establish from the hospital if the nursing home were CHC or social care as the NHS "should" fund CHC. The hospital welfare team is not the same as County Council Social Services, but they will liaise. Is your mother's GP willing to speak with you?
You might want to research the Office of the Public Guardian and the Court of Protection, in respect of a POA in your situation. Does anyone have POA for her finances, if not how does she deal with being a property owner and all that?
If it ends up being social care, the council may regard "lending" her the money to pay for it only as a last resort, and may well charge interest on the money and conduct a means test before allowing it
You might want to research the Office of the Public Guardian and the Court of Protection, in respect of a POA in your situation. Does anyone have POA for her finances, if not how does she deal with being a property owner and all that?
If it ends up being social care, the council may regard "lending" her the money to pay for it only as a last resort, and may well charge interest on the money and conduct a means test before allowing it
I was a guardian for my mum for about 10 years, it's hard.
She was in and out of nursing homes, that is very emotional.
The council and especially the adult social care team, were great.
If you can get in touch with professionals and take their advice.
Hospitals were less helpful, for my mum they only ever wanted to discharge her into my care until I refused. This was the trigger for carers at home which increased in frequency over time.
Remember short rest bite is an option which my mum used frequently.
Council will do financial assessments etc. mum ended up self financing it all, circa £3k per month in care.
If I can help at all let me know.
Look after yourself and your mum!!
She was in and out of nursing homes, that is very emotional.
The council and especially the adult social care team, were great.
If you can get in touch with professionals and take their advice.
Hospitals were less helpful, for my mum they only ever wanted to discharge her into my care until I refused. This was the trigger for carers at home which increased in frequency over time.
Remember short rest bite is an option which my mum used frequently.
Council will do financial assessments etc. mum ended up self financing it all, circa £3k per month in care.
If I can help at all let me know.
Look after yourself and your mum!!
DB4DM said:
In the short term, I'd try to establish from the hospital if the nursing home were CHC or social care as the NHS "should" fund CHC. The hospital welfare team is not the same as County Council Social Services, but they will liaise. Is your mother's GP willing to speak with you?
You might want to research the Office of the Public Guardian and the Court of Protection, in respect of a POA in your situation. Does anyone have POA for her finances, if not how does she deal with being a property owner and all that?
If it ends up being social care, the council may regard "lending" her the money to pay for it only as a last resort, and may well charge interest on the money and conduct a means test before allowing it
No charge has been mentioned re her going into a home for a week or two, they are going to see if she is fit to return to her own property although I personally think that's nonsensical. Prior to this stay in hospital she'd been in for 3 weeks before. Ambulance dropped her off at 7.30pm, a lady a few doors away made her a sandwich and a cuppa and told her that her evening carer would be there before too long (she has 4 visits a day that she pays for). She arrived 30 minutes later to find her sprawled on the floor so went straight back into hospital.You might want to research the Office of the Public Guardian and the Court of Protection, in respect of a POA in your situation. Does anyone have POA for her finances, if not how does she deal with being a property owner and all that?
If it ends up being social care, the council may regard "lending" her the money to pay for it only as a last resort, and may well charge interest on the money and conduct a means test before allowing it
No-one has PoA as she has never trusted anyone. Her household bills are all on DD and the carers do her food shopping and cooking although she doesn't eat most of it. The lady a few doors down gets cash for here from the ATM and the carers use that to buy food.
I'll have a look at the bits you mentioned, thanks for that.
IIRC there will be a Council form that that will have to be filled in to state what assets your mum has so that they can decide in whether they provide funding etc.
We never got to the point regarding a charge on the house as MIL house was sold and the cash invested to be used for care. We managed to obtain NHS CHC funding (not an easy process btw)
So she still has the cash shoukd it be required.
I recall reading that the council may request the property to be sold to generate cash now rather than them funding care until it is sold.
We never got to the point regarding a charge on the house as MIL house was sold and the cash invested to be used for care. We managed to obtain NHS CHC funding (not an easy process btw)
So she still has the cash shoukd it be required.
I recall reading that the council may request the property to be sold to generate cash now rather than them funding care until it is sold.
As DB4DM and boringvolvo driver have said they key in this to to try and get your mum on the Continuing Healthcare (CHC) pathway as health pick up the whole bill, if following a DST they say no then there will either be contributions or whole cost applied and this could be a charge on the property. Find out the pathway first and if it isn’t decided get some help to represent you in the DST meeting
Noxid2 said:
As DB4DM and boringvolvo driver have said they key in this to to try and get your mum on the Continuing Healthcare (CHC) pathway as health pick up the whole bill, if following a DST they say no then there will either be contributions or whole cost applied and this could be a charge on the property. Find out the pathway first and if it isn’t decided get some help to represent you in the DST meeting
We used the services of a firm of solicitors who specialize in the NHS CHC funding - on a no win no fee basis - it was well worth the percentage they took, especially when the home where MIL was charged £1700 per week! As Noxid2 says the very least should be some contribution which will help with the fees.
And make sure you have a good look round several homes if possible as they differ significantly in the level of care they provide.
Use the CQC reports as a guide - even a nome with a good report 12 months ago can go downhill very quickly, trust me. I could tell you some stories - take this one as an example
https://www.lgo.org.uk/decisions/adult-care-servic...
Noxid2 said:
As DB4DM and boringvolvo driver have said they key in this to to try and get your mum on the Continuing Healthcare (CHC) pathway as health pick up the whole bill, if following a DST they say no then there will either be contributions or whole cost applied and this could be a charge on the property. Find out the pathway first and if it isn’t decided get some help to represent you in the DST meeting
DB4DM mentioned AgeUK, but I should disclose that I work for them! However, there is an impartial information and advice service available to older people (obviously) and carers as well. This service and the OP's concerns aren't in an area I work in, so I can't comment, but have a look at the website if you feel like it!https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/
'They' can't spring a decision on you
If she lacks capacity then someone needs to make a decision. If there is no decision making power ie. LPA or court appointed deputy then this is a social worker.
They must act in her 'best interests' which means listening to those family, carers and other close associates (that list is obviously small in your mums case).
Sounds like she is going to be turfed out of hospital into an intermediate care facility of some kind to determine her care needs. This assessment will probably take up to six weeks and will be free of charge. If she doesn't kick off there then don't be surprised if they recommend dementia residential care and NHS funding doesn't to apply.
Councils are used to folk with no decision making arrangements in place in re finances. They essentially put in a bridging loan to cover care costs which is then recovered when the Court of Protection appoints a deputy or makes a decision in relation to her affairs or from the estate.
When it comes to choosing care homes you might find that if she is a bit of a 'character' and a challenge then choices may be limited. In the current market, it's the care homes that do the choosing not those paying. Sometimes those homes that like the 'square peg' type residents may not score well on the potted plant count or tripadvisor type ratings but actually do a pretty decent job.
If she lacks capacity then someone needs to make a decision. If there is no decision making power ie. LPA or court appointed deputy then this is a social worker.
They must act in her 'best interests' which means listening to those family, carers and other close associates (that list is obviously small in your mums case).
Sounds like she is going to be turfed out of hospital into an intermediate care facility of some kind to determine her care needs. This assessment will probably take up to six weeks and will be free of charge. If she doesn't kick off there then don't be surprised if they recommend dementia residential care and NHS funding doesn't to apply.
Councils are used to folk with no decision making arrangements in place in re finances. They essentially put in a bridging loan to cover care costs which is then recovered when the Court of Protection appoints a deputy or makes a decision in relation to her affairs or from the estate.
When it comes to choosing care homes you might find that if she is a bit of a 'character' and a challenge then choices may be limited. In the current market, it's the care homes that do the choosing not those paying. Sometimes those homes that like the 'square peg' type residents may not score well on the potted plant count or tripadvisor type ratings but actually do a pretty decent job.
Edited by oddman on Thursday 18th November 21:23
Been through a similar scenario.
The council allowed us to defer any payments from her assets until after she had died.....which she did after 2 years in a home.We then got a bill off the council which we settled after her house was sold.....which had remained empty for that period as we weren't allowed to rent it out or sell it in the meantime.
The council allowed us to defer any payments from her assets until after she had died.....which she did after 2 years in a home.We then got a bill off the council which we settled after her house was sold.....which had remained empty for that period as we weren't allowed to rent it out or sell it in the meantime.
From when my mum went into a care home
If she is classed as Nursing Care - in 2015 - then there was no charge to myself or my brother for her care but bear in mind that was nearly 7 years ago.
From what little i do know of the situation, get a solicitor and ask them to get a financial advisor to look into arranging a plan for cost of care if needs be.
If she does have dementia, they may decide she doesn't have capacity in which case the solictors could in theory take over her affairs but don't quote me on that.
Sorry i can't be much more help but it was a long time back
If she is classed as Nursing Care - in 2015 - then there was no charge to myself or my brother for her care but bear in mind that was nearly 7 years ago.
From what little i do know of the situation, get a solicitor and ask them to get a financial advisor to look into arranging a plan for cost of care if needs be.
If she does have dementia, they may decide she doesn't have capacity in which case the solictors could in theory take over her affairs but don't quote me on that.
Sorry i can't be much more help but it was a long time back
Hi Moktabe; I found myself in a very similar situation to yours quite recently and although having worked in social care for decades - albeit in children’s services - found the legalities, policies and processes etc which the local authority operated very difficult to navigate. I took advice from Melanie Parsons at Safeguarding Futures Ltd and she was incredibly helpful and we achieved the best outcome possible for my mum under all the circumstances. I have no other connection with Melanie or her business beyond being a very satisfied customer. As I recall she gave initial information and advice free of charge and she maintains a FB presence which is also a good source of information. Good Luck !
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