First marathon pacing advice

[JapanRed]

Hi all,

Got my first marathon in 2 weeks and am after some pacing advice. Its a very flat course and I’m tempted to negatively split the run. I’m aiming for sub 4hr so need 5:41 /km (9:15 / mile) overall. assuming I’ve put all the required training in over the past 5 months (which I have) how would you split it?

[Baldchap]

I've done seven marathons and only really got one 'right' in my opinion. I'm probably similarish to you pacewise (or was, pre lockdown beer!) with a PB of 3:42.

For me, looking back now, I think a lot about the months running up to the marathon:

• My weight was bang on.

• My training was mixed, including racing and a decent amount of speed work (weekly @ 40 min 10k pace).

• I was eating well and drinking less alcohol.

• I wasn't over trained @ 4 runs per week, including long run at the weekend.

On race day I ran the first half with a mate, but he was struggling, so I left him between 13 and 14, but he had paced me really well, slowing me down whenever I went faster than about 8:45. When I left him I picked it up a bit, then again from about 18 miles.

At the half way point (in a marathon that's about 21 or so miles - trust me!), I was still going really well. Managed to hold on to about 25 miles and it started getting really hard. I knew I didn't have much time in the bag to meet my target of 3:45 and no matter how hard I pushed, my now decreased pace wasn't improving at all.

As I crossed the line I threw up. I'd been reading my watch wrong and did a 7:09 last mile!

I'm mega proud of my performance that day. I know loads of people who have gone faster but for me that day was the absolute best I could have done.

And my favourite stats are the 'how many people you passed in the last 7.2km (so from 35k):

[Challo]

JapanRed said:

Hi all,

Got my first marathon in 2 weeks and am after some pacing advice. Its a very flat course and I’m tempted to negatively split the run. I’m aiming for sub 4hr so need 5:41 /km (9:15 / mile) overall. assuming I’ve put all the required training in over the past 5 months (which I have) how would you split it?

I did the Edinburgh marathon back in 2018 and that was my first one as well. I always run negative spilts for all of my races, and I think if I can remember we spilt the race into 3 chunks.

1st Section was nice and easy, lots of people around and the opening km's are through the city streets so can be quiet congested.
2nd Section was my main bulk of work, covering the majority of the km's
3rd Section was probaly the last 3-4km's to try and give it one last push and get to sub 4hr's.

Im part of a running club and rather than a strict pace, we always ran to HR. My coach worked out what my HR would be based on my pace and we used that as a guide. So each section was given a HR and we would stick to that. Helped me with pacing as I wasn't concerned if we went up hill or down, just use HR as a guide.

[CheesecakeRunner]

JapanRed said:

Hi all,

Got my first marathon in 2 weeks and am after some pacing advice. Its a very flat course and I’m tempted to negatively split the run. I’m aiming for sub 4hr so need 5:41 /km (9:15 / mile) overall. assuming I’ve put all the required training in over the past 5 months (which I have) how would you split it?

Sub-4 you need to stay just under 9:10 per mile.

Resist the urgh to try and bank time in the first half, that doesn't work. Any negative split should be minor, so something like 9:10 for first half, 9:00 for second (check my sums).

What can you currently run 20 miles in (time and pace)? Can you do 20 in under 3 hours? Otherwise a sub 4 is going to be a challenge.

[Parsnip]

Negative splitting is theoretically always faster. For me, I find it much easier to run to a target pace and adjust slightly up/down depending on how I feel - the only PB I have every truly ran a negative split for was 5k - everything else has been like a wavy line - it might only be a couple of seconds/km each way, but easing off a little is better than forcing a pace and then exploding.

For a marathon (especially your first) - pacing is hard. I was aiming for 3.30 for my first - came through the half in 1.45 and feeling great. Got to 19 miles still on pace and then the wheels came off - overheated, underhydrated and cramped up. Crossed the line at 3.53. You will go through plenty of good patches and bad patches - the key for me is not to go too hard when you feel good and not to let off too much when you feel bad.

At the start line for a marathon a few years ago, the race director said "The first 30k of a marathon is just the entry price" - its a quote that has stuck with me. You cannot set a marathon PB over 30k, but you can give yourself a decent shot at it or you can throw it away.

[CheesecakeRunner]

Parsnip said:

At the start line for a marathon a few years ago, the race director said "The first 30k of a marathon is just the entry price" - its a quote that has stuck with me.

20 mile warm-up followed by a hard 10k :-)

[JapanRed]

CheesecakeRunner said:

JapanRed said:

Hi all,

Got my first marathon in 2 weeks and am after some pacing advice. Its a very flat course and I’m tempted to negatively split the run. I’m aiming for sub 4hr so need 5:41 /km (9:15 / mile) overall. assuming I’ve put all the required training in over the past 5 months (which I have) how would you split it?

Sub-4 you need to stay just under 9:10 per mile.

Resist the urgh to try and bank time in the first half, that doesn't work. Any negative split should be minor, so something like 9:10 for first half, 9:00 for second (check my sums).

What can you currently run 20 miles in (time and pace)? Can you do 20 in under 3 hours? Otherwise a sub 4 is going to be a challenge.

Thanks. This is what I’m after. So it should only be approx 10s per mile difference between first half pace and second half? Given that it’s flat, would you break the race into 2 halves of slightly different pace? Or split it into 3 or even 4 different pace sections? The fact that it’s so flat means there’s a bit of choice.

I won’t be banking time in the first half. As part of my training I’ve got my pacing pretty much nailed on. All of my long runs have been negatively split. I know it will be a bit harder to resist the urge when there’s a crowd on race day but I’m confident.

I ran 20 miles the other week in 3hrs 3 mins but that was taking it pretty steady and on a much hillier route than the actual marathon would be. I’d be confident of easily doing 20 mile in 3hrs under race conditions.

Edited by JapanRed on Wednesday 19th May 12:25

[CheesecakeRunner]

No need to over think it. I go with first half at one pace and second at another, but I'm always prepared to change the plan depending on how I feel. I never change in the first half though as you really don't know how you feel in a marathon until you're a long way into it. I remember my 3:30 attempt I was absolutely perfect until 18 miles. Felt great, loads of energy, no problems. Was dead at the side of the road at 19 miles :-)

Your 20 mile time sounds like you're bob-on as long as you rest well between now and race day. That doesn't mean do nothing however, stick to your usual runs during the week, just remove all effort from them. Although I find a very short fast run a couple of days before loosens me up.

[CheesecakeRunner]

Oh, and flat races can be deceptively hard. I actually find it harder running at a constant pace on a flat course than slightly variable pace of a mildly hilly one. The variable pace gives your muscles chance to be used in a different way, so there is something to be said for varying your pace on a flat course, whilst maintaining the right overall pace for your target time.

To be honest though, for a first marathon, the biggest achievements are getting to the line and then getting across the finish, so don't worry too much about time.

[UpTheIron]

On a typical/flat road course just go out at your target pace and assuming you feel good at 13 or 20 miles maybe pick it up a little then to bank a little time if the wheels start to fall off in the last couple of miles.

Don't get too disheartened if you miss your target, I've done that plenty of times, I just park it mentally as practice and reboot the training for another marathon!

[Smitters]

In a perfect world, an absolutely even pace, bang on your target splits to 20 miles would be good and then slowly wind it up if you can. Factor in a bit for drinks and a wee, but only by a couple of seconds a mile. The time to decide to run faster than target pace is always after mile 20. Always. If you do it before you'll blow up, or your target was too conservative to begin with.

However, if you, or the conditions don't look ideal (windy, hot, ill, no sleep, bad stomach) don't be afraid to adjust your target. You can definitely go out at target pace, but the last 10 miles might be purgatory and after all, we do this for fun. If it's all going wrong, find another marathon in four to six weeks, back off the pacing and turn it into a long run with a lot of mates...

Now, if you take everything I just said and flip it, that was how I did my first road marathon. #unfun

(but I've done more and loved them since)

Good luck.

[oddman]

JapanRed said:

I ran 20 miles the other week in 3hrs 3 mins but that was taking it pretty steady and on a much hillier route than the actual marathon would be. I’d be confident of easily doing 20 mile in 3hrs under race conditions.

Your average heart rate for the body of this run could be a good guide.

I tend to use HR and perceived exertion to pace. I never want to feel significant exertion in the early part but sometimes race conditions/adrenaline/comptetiveness, can trick you so if HR is climbing, say greater than 5bpm over that 20 mile average you might want to back off.

Some great advice here - you need to trust your plan.

A well executed taper is almost magical. I tend to feel weird, crotchety and under exercised when tapering. Usually feel great when racing as a result of being well rested hence need for discipline/pacing. My failing in triathlon is getting overexcited, smashing it on the bike overtaking people and falling apart in the run.

[MattS5]

I'd say dont settle for "one target time"

Have 3 in your head.......Ideal, good and satisfied.

All 3 will keep you focussed on the day, and you'll not lose heart if one time slips away.

For me, that was 3:15, 3:25 and 3:30

[FazerBoy]

Make up a wristband with the mile splits written on it so as you pass each mile marker you know whether you’re behind or ahead of schedule. So basically you need to print a small schedule showing what your elapsed time should be at each mile marker and tape it to your wrist so it’s easy to glance at.

This will massively assist in keeping the pace right.

One of the biggest mistakes made by novice marathon runners is to start off too fast due to being hyped up, following other runners etc and then paying for it big time later on. The start always feels too easy.

I’ve run many marathons. My first one took 3.55 and my last was 3.03 and obviously there were several factors that assisted me in improving my times, but if I had to pick one thing that made the difference on the day it would be the wristband.

I would not do too many very long runs in your training - they take a lot out of you. Probably the very longest run should be no more than 22 miles. Let the first time you run 26 miles be on the day itself - it will feel more special.

Fuel up consistently with gels or drinks throughout the race - little and often. Don’t wait till you feel you need the fuel - it will be too late then.

Good luck!

[JapanRed]

Thanks for all the advice it’s greatly appreciated.

I’ll definitely write down mile marker times thanks. 9 days to go before the marathon now; 4 short (and slow) runs of 2-4 miles left before then. I’ll keep this thread updated.

[FazerBoy]

Good luck!

Just to clarify with regard to the mile marker times in case it’s not obvious:

You’ll have this on one wrist and a stopwatch on the other and as you pass each mile marker (which almost all marathons have set up at the side of the course) you check your stopwatch elapsed time against where the chart shows you should be at that point. If you’re ahead of schedule then slow down - even if it feels easy at that point!

[BobsPigeon]

Have you read about or heard about the 3x10 (10miles + 10miles + 10km) system, its quite useful as it's easier to train and identify your pacing over 10 miles and 10k.

I knew I was going to struggle for 4 hours but also new that whatever state I was in after 20 miles I could still run a 1hr 10k, so targeted 1hr30 10 mile times.

Mind you I'll never do it again but I squeaked in under 4 hrs.

[JapanRed]

That 10x10x10 method of pacing sounds good. It’s essentially just negative splitting but might help mentally.

Quick question for experienced marathon runners? At the drinks stations, are the drinks sports drinks? And will they be bottled (as opposed to in an open cup)? It’s Boston Lincolnshire if that makes a difference.

No info on drinks in literature that came through post this week.

[Harpoon]

JapanRed said:

That 10x10x10 method of pacing sounds good. It’s essentially just negative splitting but might help mentally.

Quick question for experienced marathon runners? At the drinks stations, are the drinks sports drinks? And will they be bottled (as opposed to in an open cup)? It’s Boston Lincolnshire if that makes a difference.

No info on drinks in literature that came through post this week.

Drinks varies from race to race. I remember one race had bog-standard cups of water and it was nigh-impossible to spill more than you could drink (even trying to squeeze the cup to make a spout).

I've just been on the Boston website - is the right race?

https://www.bostonmarathon.co.uk/information-for-r...

In the PDF linked to on that page it says:

Boston Marathon said:

Water. Still water in 330ml bottles with sports tops is provided at drinks stations. Please throw used bottles and litter into the ‘wheelie’ bins located after the water points.

Edited by Harpoon on Sunday 23 May 19:44

[sevensfun]

Harpoon said:

Edited by Harpoon on Sunday 23 May 19:44

I personally prefer to carry small collapsable salomon bottle in my hand for the start of the race then just fold into pouch or short pockets (patagonia ones have several pockets)

https://www.sportsshoes.com/product/sal4127/salomo...

it takes away the stress of busy aid stations or water going everywhere whilst its busiest (i also add electrolyte tab or tailwind for some fuelling/placebo)