Discussion
As I type my uncle is led in a hospital bed slowly dying, in great pain. He has done all he wants to do and has spoken to the people he wants to, he has made his wishes known. He has nothing left to do except wait.
We’ve been informed it could be hours or months, my questing is why? When my dog was in the same situation I took him to the vets and had him put to sleep. He was in pain, there was nothing that could be done to help him and I loved him so did what needed to be done. Yet a human has to suffer a painful and drawn out death. Surely it’s about time something was done about this. I think my opinions are obvious on the topic but what does everyone else think? I understand it isn’t an easy thing to implement for many reasons but I believe it needs to be.
We’ve been informed it could be hours or months, my questing is why? When my dog was in the same situation I took him to the vets and had him put to sleep. He was in pain, there was nothing that could be done to help him and I loved him so did what needed to be done. Yet a human has to suffer a painful and drawn out death. Surely it’s about time something was done about this. I think my opinions are obvious on the topic but what does everyone else think? I understand it isn’t an easy thing to implement for many reasons but I believe it needs to be.
Sorry to hear that, awful.
It's not our choice to enter this world and we are not even given the chance to leave it when we want (without doing something stupid of course)
IMO if you are of sound mind and are in a terminal situation such as the one you describe, you should be allowed to have your final wishes met.
It's not our choice to enter this world and we are not even given the chance to leave it when we want (without doing something stupid of course)
IMO if you are of sound mind and are in a terminal situation such as the one you describe, you should be allowed to have your final wishes met.
It's basically inhuman in the UK.
My Dad had a massive cerebral haemorraghe when he was just 61 and was in a coma for 5 days.
He pulled through that but lost the use of his left limbs and was never able to stand unaided again. But he had most of his mental faculties so he understood exactly what state he was in.
He "lived" to 72 in various care homes (that the NHS wouldn't fund) and on more than one occasion begged my Mum to end his misery (I wouldn't say life because it was only an existense) but that really wasn't an option.
But if you can make that choice for a dog or a cat why on earth can't you do it for a loved one?
I sat holding his hand for 8 hours or so while he died dosed up on Morphine, and it was heart-breaking.
And brought much more sharply into focus in 2006 when I had a TIA - I've understood how he must have felt even better since then.
Every day is a bonus!
My Dad had a massive cerebral haemorraghe when he was just 61 and was in a coma for 5 days.
He pulled through that but lost the use of his left limbs and was never able to stand unaided again. But he had most of his mental faculties so he understood exactly what state he was in.
He "lived" to 72 in various care homes (that the NHS wouldn't fund) and on more than one occasion begged my Mum to end his misery (I wouldn't say life because it was only an existense) but that really wasn't an option.
But if you can make that choice for a dog or a cat why on earth can't you do it for a loved one?
I sat holding his hand for 8 hours or so while he died dosed up on Morphine, and it was heart-breaking.
And brought much more sharply into focus in 2006 when I had a TIA - I've understood how he must have felt even better since then.
Every day is a bonus!
thebraketester said:
Sorry to hear that, awful.
It's not our choice to enter this world and we are not even given the chance to leave it when we want (without doing something stupid of course)
IMO if you are of sound mind and are in a terminal situation such as the one you describe, you should be allowed to have your final wishes met.
Completely agree.It's not our choice to enter this world and we are not even given the chance to leave it when we want (without doing something stupid of course)
IMO if you are of sound mind and are in a terminal situation such as the one you describe, you should be allowed to have your final wishes met.
Anyone who disagrees with another persons wish to pass away is a selfish prick (sorry to be so direct!) .
There is no way someone else's opinion on ending your own life should be over ridden by any one else, especially the anti-euthanasia groups.
Firstly, my deepest sympathies to the OP and his family. Things like this are hard at the best of times, but in the current situation with limited hospital visiting it is doubly cruel.
Can you arrange to speak with the lead consultant, it is likely to be by phone, but face to face can be arranged in hospital - I've arranged it several times in situations like this during the last few months.
You need to be asking about symptom control - the hospital's pain team as well as their palliative care team should be involved, if not ask that they at least assess him.
I spent several years working in palliative care and know that good care can make the difference to everyone. I've seen truly exceptional care in this field - it does make a difference.
PM me if you wish.
SD.
Can you arrange to speak with the lead consultant, it is likely to be by phone, but face to face can be arranged in hospital - I've arranged it several times in situations like this during the last few months.
You need to be asking about symptom control - the hospital's pain team as well as their palliative care team should be involved, if not ask that they at least assess him.
I spent several years working in palliative care and know that good care can make the difference to everyone. I've seen truly exceptional care in this field - it does make a difference.
PM me if you wish.
SD.
Both my parents died of cancer in the last 5 years, my mum was mercifully quick, my father hung on for a few weeks - fortunately not longer, I suspect the levels of morphine he was on in the hospice sped him on his way in the end, for which all the family were grateful.
Religious arguments against mercy should not be given the time of day.
OP you have my deepest sympathy for you and yourr family
Religious arguments against mercy should not be given the time of day.
OP you have my deepest sympathy for you and yourr family
Lim said:
My experience is they offer you/him more morphine and to reduce support.
Is this a formalised thing or did I just have dodgy docs?
There used to be the Liverpool Care Pathway - it was ripped apart by the Daily Mail and Express, but at its heart was the essence of good end of life care based on symptom control and patient/ family involvement. What was forgotten was the LCP was a two way street - patients came off it if their symptoms became manageable. Denial of food and drink was not part of it - in fact there was a large section of it devoted to nutrition and hydration.Is this a formalised thing or did I just have dodgy docs?
Yes, there is an element of giving pain relief, anti-anxiety medications as well as other medications for symptom control and an understanding that death is a natural part of living. Regular observations are stopped - why check someone's blood pressure when any abnormality is not going to be treated? All non-essential medications are stopped - if it isn't necessary for symptom control then why continue to give it?
I've also found that when the patient and their family come to terms with the inevitable, opiate usage may actually decrease.
SD.
Condolences OP it must be a horrendous position for your family.
People in favour of euthanasia will always use stories like that of the OP to build the case for legalising. My concern, and reason for opposing, would be the widening interpretation of the law. There would very quickly be families having a word in the ear of frail relatives sitting on large sums of money. Look at the number of reasonable people that fallout with family over the division of estates.
In the Netherlands a 29 year old mother of 2 was euthanised as she suffered with tinnitus. I don’t know anything about the story, or condition, but that seems extreme.
In the UK look at the rhetoric around abortion when it was introduced. It still remains illegal apart from in specific circumstances. The areas it was legalised were initially only in the very extreme cases. It’s now used as contraception for some. I am in favour of abortion and have no real issue with how it is used but I believe it illustrates the fears of those opposed to euthanasia.
People in favour of euthanasia will always use stories like that of the OP to build the case for legalising. My concern, and reason for opposing, would be the widening interpretation of the law. There would very quickly be families having a word in the ear of frail relatives sitting on large sums of money. Look at the number of reasonable people that fallout with family over the division of estates.
In the Netherlands a 29 year old mother of 2 was euthanised as she suffered with tinnitus. I don’t know anything about the story, or condition, but that seems extreme.
In the UK look at the rhetoric around abortion when it was introduced. It still remains illegal apart from in specific circumstances. The areas it was legalised were initially only in the very extreme cases. It’s now used as contraception for some. I am in favour of abortion and have no real issue with how it is used but I believe it illustrates the fears of those opposed to euthanasia.
Lim said:
Yes they turned off the bleepy heart rate thing. So this is officially ‘allowed’? It was best thing to do, and sped things up by about a week I’m guessing. but always wondered how official it was.
Other than spending time watching the bleepy heart rate thing - and I am going to start using that term as much as possible - was having it on providing anything of benefit to the patient?I only ask because relatives are fixated by numbers on a screen. This is probably so they can look for signs of improvement etc, but take time to be with your loved one, not a monitor.
SD.
Yes the machine did trigger some anxiety, and perhaps gave false hope. One problem we had, was varying response from different family members.
Some just didn’t get it, and would complain about the bleepy thing being off, or the amount of morphine delivered, and requesting endless second opinions etc. Whilst other family members were more focused on quality time.
Seems like an impossible situation for family (and medics) to navigate these issues.
Some just didn’t get it, and would complain about the bleepy thing being off, or the amount of morphine delivered, and requesting endless second opinions etc. Whilst other family members were more focused on quality time.
Seems like an impossible situation for family (and medics) to navigate these issues.
Edited by Lim on Friday 8th January 22:53
Celt said:
Condolences OP it must be a horrendous position for your family.
People in favour of euthanasia will always use stories like that of the OP to build the case for legalising. My concern, and reason for opposing, would be the widening interpretation of the law. There would very quickly be families having a word in the ear of frail relatives sitting on large sums of money. Look at the number of reasonable people that fallout with family over the division of estates.
In the Netherlands a 29 year old mother of 2 was euthanised as she suffered with tinnitus. I don’t know anything about the story, or condition, but that seems extreme.
In the UK look at the rhetoric around abortion when it was introduced. It still remains illegal apart from in specific circumstances. The areas it was legalised were initially only in the very extreme cases. It’s now used as contraception for some. I am in favour of abortion and have no real issue with how it is used but I believe it illustrates the fears of those opposed to euthanasia.
I have quite a few Dutch friends and we've discussed the approach to end of life there at length. People in favour of euthanasia will always use stories like that of the OP to build the case for legalising. My concern, and reason for opposing, would be the widening interpretation of the law. There would very quickly be families having a word in the ear of frail relatives sitting on large sums of money. Look at the number of reasonable people that fallout with family over the division of estates.
In the Netherlands a 29 year old mother of 2 was euthanised as she suffered with tinnitus. I don’t know anything about the story, or condition, but that seems extreme.
In the UK look at the rhetoric around abortion when it was introduced. It still remains illegal apart from in specific circumstances. The areas it was legalised were initially only in the very extreme cases. It’s now used as contraception for some. I am in favour of abortion and have no real issue with how it is used but I believe it illustrates the fears of those opposed to euthanasia.
Very interesting and to me a quite dignified process when done correctly, I know it was for my friend's mother when she made the decision that she'd had enough.
I think in generations to come people will regard the inability for someone to choose when their time as up as bizarre as slavery.
Once my body fails, and assuming my mind is still chugging, no way will I linger regardless of the legal situation in this country. If my mind isn't chugging I'll have to contract a hit before time.
Someone I knew died the other day after being pulled out of a care home by one son and she spent the last 6 years of her life lying in bed with her mouth hanging open having various things poured into her and other things sucked out.
Not great.
Once my body fails, and assuming my mind is still chugging, no way will I linger regardless of the legal situation in this country. If my mind isn't chugging I'll have to contract a hit before time.
Someone I knew died the other day after being pulled out of a care home by one son and she spent the last 6 years of her life lying in bed with her mouth hanging open having various things poured into her and other things sucked out.
Not great.
Celt said:
In the Netherlands a 29 year old mother of 2 was euthanised as she suffered with tinnitus. I don’t know anything about the story, or condition, but that seems extreme.
I love how you admit you have no knowledge surrounding this incident, but you still think it's extreme. Do you know what quality of life she had and what her life was to be until she died naturally?
Do you know how the procedure runs for a person who is mentally competent and decides enough is enough?
To give you a little insight, this is my friends Mum's story.
She was suffering terminal cancer and the pain reduction medication was starting to have a negative impact on her quality of life.
She decided that she was unwilling to simply spend weeks or longer unable to function due to the effects of the pain drugs.
The Dutch system starts with you requesting euthanasia from a Doctor who is qualified in this area.
They interview the patient and make their assessment as to competence to decide and the reasonableness of the patient's request and specifically try to assess whether there is any external pressures from family etc trying to force the issue.
Next day, a second suitably qualified Doctor attends and repeats the procedure fully independent of the first Doctor
The two Doctors then confer, and if they both agree then the procedure can go ahead.
The first Doctor then revisits the patience and confirms that they are still of the same mind and requests a time and date from them.
The appointment is set and the delivery of the necessary drugs is arranged for delivery on the date she had chosen
She spent the weekend with her family reminiscing and generally enjoying herself with her loved ones.
On the morning of her death, she was able to say goodbye as the family were able to be present, the doctor arrived, final checks were made and the drugs were administered.
My friend says it was an incredibly sad but beautiful moment, her mother being able to finish her life as the same strong willed woman she had always been and died in a very dignified manner.
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