Gallbladder - keep or remove
Discussion
I had my first attack from gallstones three months ago. They increased in frequency to about twice a week and always followed a similar pattern starting in the evening, lasting about 5 hours and at their peak causing excruciating pain when I didn't know quite what to do with myself. Once I'd self diagnosed gallstones then by watching my diet I could lessen the attack frequency.
I saw my doctor who arranged a scan and blood tests and gallstones have been confirmed. A follow up meeting was arranged with the surgeon, who I saw yesterday, who didn't really consider whether the gallbladder should be kept but just assumed the best and natural path would be removal and has initiated the process.
However since I've been watching my diet in the last 3 months I've lost 2 stone and am now within my BMI and all other indicators are perfect like blood pressure and resting heart rate. I'm 59 and this enforced diet has made me the healthiest I've been in 30 years. More importantly I haven't had a gallbladder attack for 5 weeks.
Anyone else with gallbladder experience think it's work keeping the gallbladder, avoiding any side effects from surgery and hope that the attacks can be kept at bay or should I just take the plunge and get it over with?
I saw my doctor who arranged a scan and blood tests and gallstones have been confirmed. A follow up meeting was arranged with the surgeon, who I saw yesterday, who didn't really consider whether the gallbladder should be kept but just assumed the best and natural path would be removal and has initiated the process.
However since I've been watching my diet in the last 3 months I've lost 2 stone and am now within my BMI and all other indicators are perfect like blood pressure and resting heart rate. I'm 59 and this enforced diet has made me the healthiest I've been in 30 years. More importantly I haven't had a gallbladder attack for 5 weeks.
Anyone else with gallbladder experience think it's work keeping the gallbladder, avoiding any side effects from surgery and hope that the attacks can be kept at bay or should I just take the plunge and get it over with?
Several years back I had my gallbladder removed after suffering a gallstones attack - frankly the pain (it was to a genuinely concerning level prior to being diagnosed) of the attack, uncertainty of a re-occurrence (I really didn't want to repeat the experience), the straight-forward nature of the surgery and recovery (procedure was key-hole) and lack of potential side-effects made the removal a formality for me.
ClaphamGT3 said:
As I live in a French a&e bed awaiting tests as to the excruciating abdominal pain I experienced last night, what exactly are the storms?
Gallstones would be a chest pain, not abdominal. In my case, it was severe, intense pain that led me no choice but to go to A&E. Can't recall there being any other symptoms (ie no nausea etc).In my case an attack starts with an indigestion type pain with most pain below the right ribs. It then radiates to the back and right shoulder blade and is so severe it feels like I've been punched in the back.
During a severe attack I'm physically sick which I think is just from the severity of the pain.
Attacks only start in the evening and last for 5-6 hours. Once the attack is ending the pain subsides in about 15 minutes.
During a severe attack I'm physically sick which I think is just from the severity of the pain.
Attacks only start in the evening and last for 5-6 hours. Once the attack is ending the pain subsides in about 15 minutes.
Edited by Sparkyhd on Saturday 2nd September 11:31
fbc said:
Several years back I had my gallbladder removed after suffering a gallstones attack - frankly the pain (it was to a genuinely concerning level prior to being diagnosed) of the attack, uncertainty of a re-occurrence (I really didn't want to repeat the experience), the straight-forward nature of the surgery and recovery (procedure was key-hole) and lack of potential side-effects made the removal a formality for me.
Have you had no long term side effects from removal? Diarrhoea?Sparkyhd said:
Have you had no long term side effects from removal? Diarrhoea?
I had mine out by keyhole surgery 10 years ago & have no long term effects at all. I'd strongly recommend you go ahead with the removal as whilst you have done well to control the attacks via your diet you don't know when or if you will get another attack. I'm not aware that the stones actually dissolve or get eliminated, unlike kidney stones. Some of mine were 20mm diameter & were never going to pass down the bile duct.What if you get a really bad attack while you're on holiday in a country with a less than stellar health care system? if they don't do it via a keyhole method it's a very serious operation & you could be recovering for weeks or months. I went back to work two days after my operation.
ClaphamGT3 said:
Just at the bottom of the ribs - like someone had got you with an iron bar or tightened a belt? My wife thought I was having a heart attack, hence the rush to a&e
Yep, underneath the lower ribs - and indeed it was similar concern re a heart attack that had me heading to A&E.Sparkyhd said:
In my case an attack starts with an indigestion type pain with most pain below the right ribs. It then radiates to the back and right shoulder blade and is so severe it feels like I've been punched in the back.
That was pretty much my exact experience too - incredibly painful and concerning (not afraid to admit I was curled up on the floor in a ball from the pain).Sparkyhd said:
Have you had no long term side effects from removal? Diarrhoea?
Absolutely nothing. Certainly no digestive issues. I believe you can / may have issues if your diet is high in fat, but correcting that alleviates the issue (and is of course wise for other health reasons). The recovery itself was also fine - just annoying as I had to wait a couple of weeks to get back to my running.I had my gallbladder out last september, after almost a decade of pain and medical misdiagnosis. I wasn't given an option either, from initial scan to surgery was 6 weeks. Largest was 45mm, one resembles a manky brazil nut so will provide amusement at crimbo, then an assortment from pea sized, to lentil sized.
Very uncomfortable.
Oh and I caught norovirus on the first admission, and flu on the second admission - last years flu pretty much wiped me out till easter.
The diarrhoea began 2 days after and I'm only just starting to get back to normal. If I eat anything 'fatty' such as mackerel, roast pots/chips it's a lottery as to whether I'm left writhing in agony. However symptoms are starting to attenuate, but it has been a year. The vast majority of my ongoing problems were down to quite how many stones I had to start with, and the amount my body had to correct itself. The norovirus and the flu would not have helped either. Sounds like you're doing a lot of that yourself, losing weight and increasing overall health prior to surgery will mean you'll get back to normal a lot quicker.
I would say, if you're managing to reduce the number of attacks, and a dietery change is helping then put the surgery on ice. As I said, from initial scan to surgery, the wait for me was 6 weeks, and this was Worcester hospital which is in special measures, so for anywhere else the wait would be days at best.
No attack does not mean the stones have gone though. The gallbladder contracts after eating to squeeze bile over the contents of your intestine as it leaves the stomach; and with a low fat diet it just means the gallbladder isn't contracting much. Eventually, you will more than likely need it removed, but think more about your long term health. If diet and exercise have helped to this extent whilst improving your overall health then I can't see what harm waiting a few months will do. Some people go decades with gallstones and suffer no pain or have any knowledge of their presence. Your dietary changes might be reverting back to this state of zero pain.
The surgery itself was absolutely fine. Anaesthetic was a joyous experience, slipping under like that was sooooo awesome. I found it easier and more reassuring to remain talking to the anaesthetist as the propofol went in, no ache in the arm which sometimes happens, and gradually sank in to unconsciousness.
When I regained consciousness, it took about 10 minutes for the initial grogginess to wear off and the first thing I saw was a nurses ass and she was hot as hades!! Slept a bit afterwards, the only reason I stayed overnight was the late time of surgery otherwise I'd have gone home the same day. No kidding, 4 hours after surgery I could have picked up my own bags and driven myself home (you can't drive for 24 hours after a general, it's illegal, for starters).
It's quite normal to be nervous about any surgery, but the whole thing was unbelievably fine. Only real pain was a few days later, when I was a bit stiff and sore and the norovirus got me. As above, you're not going to go running again for a few weeks but there's nothing to say you won't be able to do things like push a trolley around waitrose the day after surgery. No heavy lifting, bending or strenuous activity. I have 4 small scars, 2 on my flank, one just below my belly button (the idea of going through the naval freaked me out) and one on my chest.
All in all when you do finally have the surgery - even though the afterwards was grim for me - the surgery itself is fine. No pain, no issues with anaesthetic. Food for after the surgery (you'll be starving) I took grapes, bananas, dry crackers in case of nausea (there was no nausea) and £20 so I could send my chaperone out to buy whatever took my fancy. If I had to do it all again I'd also take puzzle books/reading material, ipod, and something to cure boredom.
Now for the stuff they don't tell you.....
You get your thigh shaved, as well as your entire belly. The thigh is to place an electrode pad, and pain relief patches. You get fentanyl. It's awesome stuff.
The pain relief is opiate. It will bung you up something chronic. I didn't s
t for 2 days. The norovirus sorted that one out sharpish.
Everything, and I mean everything, is anaesthetised locally. You will wake up with a numb throat and that disappears after 20 minutes. The surgical sites have local anaesthetic, so prodding it is painless and feels weird. The IV access in your hand is anaesthetised.
If anything, after the surgery the total lack of any pain whatsoever was a little unnerving. I questioned the nurses as to whether it had in fact been done.
My surgery was on the friday, readmitted on the monday for 2 days due to complications from norovirus and released wednesday. Only aftercare needed was at the GP's the following monday to have the steri strips replaced, check the wound etc. Would have been easy plain sailing without the norovirus and the flu.
Since the op, my diet hasn't really changed much. I never ate Macca D's, KFC, chips, burgers, kebabs or cream cakes anyway, so frankly I don't miss them. Roast spuds give me problems, but if I eat more slowly, have more smaller meals then that's avoided. The really bad diarrhoea is after anything super fatty. Pork scratchings wrecked me for a week. Bad squits for 6 months, gradually getting better now.
The best thing about all this? Women who have had gallstones and have given birth say gallstones is far more painful than giving birth. So what you're experiencing is WORSE than childbirth. Knowing this, I do give a wry smile and say my stones were 'a bit uncomfortable at times' just to irritate the fems
In reality it's like being whacked between the shoulder blades with a baseball bat.
My stones are in a pot on a shelf. You can get them back, if you ask. That pretty much covers everything.
Very uncomfortable.
Oh and I caught norovirus on the first admission, and flu on the second admission - last years flu pretty much wiped me out till easter.
The diarrhoea began 2 days after and I'm only just starting to get back to normal. If I eat anything 'fatty' such as mackerel, roast pots/chips it's a lottery as to whether I'm left writhing in agony. However symptoms are starting to attenuate, but it has been a year. The vast majority of my ongoing problems were down to quite how many stones I had to start with, and the amount my body had to correct itself. The norovirus and the flu would not have helped either. Sounds like you're doing a lot of that yourself, losing weight and increasing overall health prior to surgery will mean you'll get back to normal a lot quicker.
I would say, if you're managing to reduce the number of attacks, and a dietery change is helping then put the surgery on ice. As I said, from initial scan to surgery, the wait for me was 6 weeks, and this was Worcester hospital which is in special measures, so for anywhere else the wait would be days at best.
No attack does not mean the stones have gone though. The gallbladder contracts after eating to squeeze bile over the contents of your intestine as it leaves the stomach; and with a low fat diet it just means the gallbladder isn't contracting much. Eventually, you will more than likely need it removed, but think more about your long term health. If diet and exercise have helped to this extent whilst improving your overall health then I can't see what harm waiting a few months will do. Some people go decades with gallstones and suffer no pain or have any knowledge of their presence. Your dietary changes might be reverting back to this state of zero pain.
The surgery itself was absolutely fine. Anaesthetic was a joyous experience, slipping under like that was sooooo awesome. I found it easier and more reassuring to remain talking to the anaesthetist as the propofol went in, no ache in the arm which sometimes happens, and gradually sank in to unconsciousness.
When I regained consciousness, it took about 10 minutes for the initial grogginess to wear off and the first thing I saw was a nurses ass and she was hot as hades!! Slept a bit afterwards, the only reason I stayed overnight was the late time of surgery otherwise I'd have gone home the same day. No kidding, 4 hours after surgery I could have picked up my own bags and driven myself home (you can't drive for 24 hours after a general, it's illegal, for starters).
It's quite normal to be nervous about any surgery, but the whole thing was unbelievably fine. Only real pain was a few days later, when I was a bit stiff and sore and the norovirus got me. As above, you're not going to go running again for a few weeks but there's nothing to say you won't be able to do things like push a trolley around waitrose the day after surgery. No heavy lifting, bending or strenuous activity. I have 4 small scars, 2 on my flank, one just below my belly button (the idea of going through the naval freaked me out) and one on my chest.
All in all when you do finally have the surgery - even though the afterwards was grim for me - the surgery itself is fine. No pain, no issues with anaesthetic. Food for after the surgery (you'll be starving) I took grapes, bananas, dry crackers in case of nausea (there was no nausea) and £20 so I could send my chaperone out to buy whatever took my fancy. If I had to do it all again I'd also take puzzle books/reading material, ipod, and something to cure boredom.
Now for the stuff they don't tell you.....
You get your thigh shaved, as well as your entire belly. The thigh is to place an electrode pad, and pain relief patches. You get fentanyl. It's awesome stuff.
The pain relief is opiate. It will bung you up something chronic. I didn't s
t for 2 days. The norovirus sorted that one out sharpish.Everything, and I mean everything, is anaesthetised locally. You will wake up with a numb throat and that disappears after 20 minutes. The surgical sites have local anaesthetic, so prodding it is painless and feels weird. The IV access in your hand is anaesthetised.
If anything, after the surgery the total lack of any pain whatsoever was a little unnerving. I questioned the nurses as to whether it had in fact been done.
My surgery was on the friday, readmitted on the monday for 2 days due to complications from norovirus and released wednesday. Only aftercare needed was at the GP's the following monday to have the steri strips replaced, check the wound etc. Would have been easy plain sailing without the norovirus and the flu.
Since the op, my diet hasn't really changed much. I never ate Macca D's, KFC, chips, burgers, kebabs or cream cakes anyway, so frankly I don't miss them. Roast spuds give me problems, but if I eat more slowly, have more smaller meals then that's avoided. The really bad diarrhoea is after anything super fatty. Pork scratchings wrecked me for a week. Bad squits for 6 months, gradually getting better now.
The best thing about all this? Women who have had gallstones and have given birth say gallstones is far more painful than giving birth. So what you're experiencing is WORSE than childbirth. Knowing this, I do give a wry smile and say my stones were 'a bit uncomfortable at times' just to irritate the fems
In reality it's like being whacked between the shoulder blades with a baseball bat.My stones are in a pot on a shelf. You can get them back, if you ask. That pretty much covers everything.
Had mine out in January privately after two years of the most incredibly painful attacks (and hospitalisation on Christmas night) and likely another year before the NHS would whip it out.
I've since had similar (time, location) attacks but much milder, seeing the doc this week and will ask about it. Also had a fair bit of diarrhea and fairly unpleasant bowel movements since.
The pain from my inflamed gallbladder is something I never want to repeat, it's excruciating and seemingly endless.
Like you, I felt I could mostly control it with diet but, there would always be an evening you would have a beer or two and then suddenly get a ferocious attack in the early hours, it just wasn't predictable.
I've since had similar (time, location) attacks but much milder, seeing the doc this week and will ask about it. Also had a fair bit of diarrhea and fairly unpleasant bowel movements since.
The pain from my inflamed gallbladder is something I never want to repeat, it's excruciating and seemingly endless.
Like you, I felt I could mostly control it with diet but, there would always be an evening you would have a beer or two and then suddenly get a ferocious attack in the early hours, it just wasn't predictable.
I had a problem with mine, apparently going on a low fat diet can cause it to seize up, anyway, it stopped working, had attacks as described here, it is utterly horrendous, you cant do anything to help it, you just have to ride it out and it goes as abruptly as it arrives. I had four attacks, all following a fatty meal, on the fourth one it was followed by a strange event from the back, I wont go into details but it, on the fourth one had cleared itself. I was going jaundiced.
I was fully prepared for the various scans to say something was fooked but nothing was found, everything was ship shape, liver was in good nick despite my best efforts over the years.
Theory was the bile had solidified as I wasnt eating enough fats, then when I did, it couldnt supply it, and then eventutually the pressure pushed the blockage out.
Not something I ever want to repeat.
I was fully prepared for the various scans to say something was fooked but nothing was found, everything was ship shape, liver was in good nick despite my best efforts over the years.
Theory was the bile had solidified as I wasnt eating enough fats, then when I did, it couldnt supply it, and then eventutually the pressure pushed the blockage out.
Not something I ever want to repeat.
I would get it removed, it sounds like you are otherwise healthy which makes any anaesthetic risk etc. very low. You are, unfortunately, very likely to have further attacks and if you do, repeated episodes of gallbladder inflammation it can make it more difficult to remove later on as everything can become scarred up over time, increasing the risk of complications including damage to nearby structures and needing an open procedure rather than keyhole. It's generally just a day-case procedure. I don't think you'll miss your gallbladder, it's one of those bits like tonsils or appendix that isn't really important but just causes us trouble.
ClaphamGT3 said:
As I lie in a French a&e bed awaiting tests as to the excruciating abdominal pain I experienced last night, what exactly are the symptoms?
I had the indigestion type pains then couldn't stop throwing up then finally collapsing all within about 7 hours. Got wheeled into CHU Limoges and after many tests gall stones diagnosed and my gall bladder was removed and out of hospital 24 hours later. Apart from an aversion to eggs for several months I suffered no further ill-effects and did have several home visits from the rather nice young Red Cross nurses for injections and wound dressing!!Sparkyhd said:
Thanks to all for your views and experiences. A couple of you have had issues subsequent to the operation but generally my thinking has been shifted to getting the gallbladder removed as soon as.
I had mine removed when I was 26, I'm now 44 and I've had no issues since. The pain from the attacks was so excruciating that i didn't think twice about it tbh! Just get rid is my advice. 
If you have confirmed stones, there's no advantage in leaving the fall bladder in unless you're a high anaesthetic or surgical risk. Since you sounds like you're in good health, I'd suggest getting on with it. One of the risks of leaving the stones in situ is developing pancreatitis which, even in this day and age, can be fatal even if it looks like mild case.
PS for others. Pain from gallstones can be in the chest or the abdomen or both although the commonest is right upper abdomen. However, it can be felt in the central abdomen in some. Not everyone has the same type of pain in the same place. The heart and the gallbladder are on the opposite sides of the body, heart to the left and the gallbladder to the right. Gallstone pain causing central chest pain is relatively unusual and a heart attack causing right sided chest pain is exceptionally rare. They're not commonly confused, although in rare cases they can be. Severe indigestion which can cause central abdominal and central chest pain is very common though and this is the classical diagnosis that's confused with a heart attack.
PS for others. Pain from gallstones can be in the chest or the abdomen or both although the commonest is right upper abdomen. However, it can be felt in the central abdomen in some. Not everyone has the same type of pain in the same place. The heart and the gallbladder are on the opposite sides of the body, heart to the left and the gallbladder to the right. Gallstone pain causing central chest pain is relatively unusual and a heart attack causing right sided chest pain is exceptionally rare. They're not commonly confused, although in rare cases they can be. Severe indigestion which can cause central abdominal and central chest pain is very common though and this is the classical diagnosis that's confused with a heart attack.
QuickQuack said:
If you have confirmed stones, there's no advantage in leaving the fall bladder in unless you're a high anaesthetic or surgical risk. Since you sounds like you're in good health, I'd suggest getting on with it. One of the risks of leaving the stones in situ is developing pancreatitis which, even in this day and age, can be fatal even if it looks like mild case.
PS for others. Pain from gallstones can be in the chest or the abdomen or both although the commonest is right upper abdomen. However, it can be felt in the central abdomen in some. Not everyone has the same type of pain in the same place. The heart and the gallbladder are on the opposite sides of the body, heart to the left and the gallbladder to the right. Gallstone pain causing central chest pain is relatively unusual and a heart attack causing right sided chest pain is exceptionally rare. They're not commonly confused, although in rare cases they can be. Severe indigestion which can cause central abdominal and central chest pain is very common though and this is the classical diagnosis that's confused with a heart attack.
What about upper back pain between the shoulder blades which feels it radiates through to the chest? I have a large gallstone apparently but suffer from upper back pain that physio doesn't work, I really can't tell if the pain is muscular, my spine or something else MRI came back clear.PS for others. Pain from gallstones can be in the chest or the abdomen or both although the commonest is right upper abdomen. However, it can be felt in the central abdomen in some. Not everyone has the same type of pain in the same place. The heart and the gallbladder are on the opposite sides of the body, heart to the left and the gallbladder to the right. Gallstone pain causing central chest pain is relatively unusual and a heart attack causing right sided chest pain is exceptionally rare. They're not commonly confused, although in rare cases they can be. Severe indigestion which can cause central abdominal and central chest pain is very common though and this is the classical diagnosis that's confused with a heart attack.
Patch1875 said:
What about upper back pain between the shoulder blades which feels it radiates through to the chest? I have a large gallstone apparently but suffer from upper back pain that physio doesn't work, I really can't tell if the pain is muscular, my spine or something else MRI came back clear.
Normally, it would be extremely unlikely to be gallstones, however, the human body does have a habit of not doing what it's supposed to. If MRI of your spine is clear, physiotherapy doesn't work, and the pain follows a reasonably predictable pattern - soon after a meal, worse following a high fat meal - then in your case, I would say that despite the atypical pain, it's likely to be gallstones. If it doesn't follow this pattern, then I would start thinking of other possibilities. QuickQuack said:
Normally, it would be extremely unlikely to be gallstones, however, the human body does have a habit of not doing what it's supposed to. If MRI of your spine is clear, physiotherapy doesn't work, and the pain follows a reasonably predictable pattern - soon after a meal, worse following a high fat meal - then in your case, I would say that despite the atypical pain, it's likely to be gallstones. If it doesn't follow this pattern, then I would start thinking of other possibilities.
Thanks, problem now is trying to convince the doctor to look into it further something certainly doesn't seem to be right.Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff