Martial Art / Self Defence? What to choose?

[jdw100]

RSTurboPaul said:

DaveA8 said:

As a general thought on training especially anything grappling or going to the ground know your training partner and be sure that there is rules because the last thing anyone wants is to land on their head or neck and frankly over the years I both seen and occasionally experienced angry young men who for whatever reason move quickly from training to full on aggression and that can have life altering consequences.
The quality of a gym’s members is a direct correlation to the owner, I recall one place and the owner was a complete a***hole but extremely dangerous and he surrounded himself with similar people but an unsuspecting person could end up thinking all combat gyms are like that.

Martial Arts can seem to attract 'those sort of people', however that is defined - from my experience, people/kids looking to feel in control and/or enjoying bullying drained the fun from a session.

Not my experience. I spent years training with lovely people.

Taxi driver in his 60s. Guy in 40s with terrible joint issues - had hip replacements in his 30s.

Two ex marines, an accountant, police tech guy….

We had the occasional knob head but they only ever lasted a week or two.

Good thing with KM is its very adaptable, so chap with joint issues could still gain from it.

[jdw100]

MaxFromage said:

The Krav Maga I've learnt over nearly 10 years doesn't advocate the bad points you mention. It also advocates all the good points. Maybe I have a good instructor

The only time I've had to really use my KM was to calm down an angry white 'Mike Tyson' with 8 gold signet rings. The only way I'd have 'won' was probably by killing the guy and the odds wouldn't have been in my favour.

I agree with that. Not sure where all the grappling came from?

I also used skills to defuse an issue or two over the years.

Including two real jack-the-lads in a late night bar in Archway. Some perceived slight, started verbal abuse. Stood my ground, didn’t apologise but wasn’t be rude back, disrupted their train of thought by asking questions….5 minutes later we were shaking hands, they were offering me some free coke and we bought a few rounds for each other’s groups. Turns out one had been in prison for armed robbery: they absolutely would have wiped the floor with me.

Knowing, from FAST training, how I am under adrenaline, I made sure i kept my voice at a lower pitch (it can go higher) and resisted the urge to say anything apologetic.

Didn’t go back there again. Don’t need guys like this thinking you are their mate.

The best fights are the ones you end up not fighting.

[Hoofy]

jdw100 said:

Including two real jack-the-lads in a late night bar in Archway. Some perceived slight, started verbal abuse. Stood my ground, didn’t apologise but wasn’t be rude back, disrupted their train of thought by asking questions….5 minutes later we were shaking hands, they were offering me some free coke and we bought a few rounds for each other’s groups. Turns out one had been in prison for armed robbery: they absolutely would have wiped the floor with me.

Knowing, from FAST training, how I am under adrenaline, I made sure i kept my voice at a lower pitch (it can go higher) and resisted the urge to say anything apologetic.

Interesting. What sorts of questions?

[Louis Balfour]

jdw100 said:

MaxFromage said:

The Krav Maga I've learnt over nearly 10 years doesn't advocate the bad points you mention. It also advocates all the good points. Maybe I have a good instructor

The only time I've had to really use my KM was to calm down an angry white 'Mike Tyson' with 8 gold signet rings. The only way I'd have 'won' was probably by killing the guy and the odds wouldn't have been in my favour.

I agree with that. Not sure where all the grappling came from?

I also used skills to defuse an issue or two over the years.

Including two real jack-the-lads in a late night bar in Archway. Some perceived slight, started verbal abuse. Stood my ground, didn’t apologise but wasn’t be rude back, disrupted their train of thought by asking questions….5 minutes later we were shaking hands, they were offering me some free coke and we bought a few rounds for each other’s groups. Turns out one had been in prison for armed robbery: they absolutely would have wiped the floor with me.

Knowing, from FAST training, how I am under adrenaline, I made sure i kept my voice at a lower pitch (it can go higher) and resisted the urge to say anything apologetic.

Didn’t go back there again. Don’t need guys like this thinking you are their mate.

The best fights are the ones you end up not fighting.

Ah, FAST. I did that some years ago for one day. At one point I saw a “bullet man” skirting round behind me; the coach tried to prevent me turning to face him, so I hit the coach.

I wasn’t asked back.

But they, of all people, should have known that it was a risk.

[s3pc1989]

Hi all - sorry for my slow reply.

There are some really helpful and thought provoking replies. Particularly with regards to situational awareness......!
I am fully in agreement that the best course of action is de-escalation and avoidance, but as mentioned having confidence in your abilities should the worst occur should (imho) improve your chances of successful de-escalation.

I'm probably going to investigate Ju Jitsu initially and see where that takes me. Likewise also some situational awareness training could be valuable. I've no intention of getting into these situations deliberately in the first place, but a bit of knowledge and quiet confidence would be great to have.

Thanks all - much appreciated....

[biggbn]

s3pc1989 said:

Hi all - sorry for my slow reply.

There are some really helpful and thought provoking replies. Particularly with regards to situational awareness......!
I am fully in agreement that the best course of action is de-escalation and avoidance, but as mentioned having confidence in your abilities should the worst occur should (imho) improve your chances of successful de-escalation.

I'm probably going to investigate Ju Jitsu initially and see where that takes me. Likewise also some situational awareness training could be valuable. I've no intention of getting into these situations deliberately in the first place, but a bit of knowledge and quiet confidence would be great to have.

Thanks all - much appreciated....

Any kind of training will end up giving you a more confident demeanour and for me, 99% of self preservation is not looking, or sounding like a victim or an easy touch. Your capability may never be sufficient to deter committed, skilled attackers, but how often is that a likely scenario anyway? Easy going assertive and projecting confidence without appearing arrogant is, for some, a difficult line to walk, but you'll master it, and find out it helps in all walks of life! Nice to see, in the main, so many measured and thoughtful replies to your enquiry. These posts can sometimes attract Billy big bks 'never lost a fight' types. Thankfully the honest and thoughtful answers you have received will throw some light on the fact that these kind of people are usually liars, bullies or both!!

[lizardbrain]

In terms of removing yourself from a situation, after watching UFC recently, it looks to me like learning calf kicks would be useful. Very overpowered, and helps stop them chasing after you.

When i was younger i had some success with bullies with wrestling, get them in a headlock diffuses things. but as an adult it seems unlikley i would get in a 1 to 1 where this be much use given a second person could get involved easily enough.


if it's more of a hobby thing every one is raving about BJJ right now online, all the cool kids are doing it

[MaxFromage]

s3pc1989 said:

Hi all - sorry for my slow reply.

There are some really helpful and thought provoking replies. Particularly with regards to situational awareness......!
I am fully in agreement that the best course of action is de-escalation and avoidance, but as mentioned having confidence in your abilities should the worst occur should (imho) improve your chances of successful de-escalation.

I'm probably going to investigate Ju Jitsu initially and see where that takes me. Likewise also some situational awareness training could be valuable. I've no intention of getting into these situations deliberately in the first place, but a bit of knowledge and quiet confidence would be great to have.

Thanks all - much appreciated....

On the balance of probabilities, the only situation/fight any normal, decent person is likely to have to deal with is against a scrote who has friends. That system should teach you (and test you) to assess the situation quickly and get away asap if possible. Any time on the floor is very bad news as you'll get your head kicked in. Secondly a large proportion of those scrotes will be carrying a knife. Any altercation with a knife should come with an expectation that you're going to get hurt, so if you're not training for that, the system is failing you.

[MC Bodge]

The best self protection is eating healthily, staying a healthy weight, regular low intensity exercise, a range of movements and some strength training.

Secondly, being aware of your surroundings, not looking for trouble or looking like a potential victim.

Somewhere distantly down the line, Fighting/self-defence requires knowing what it feels like to be attacked/roughed up, evade a strike, being able to strike back and to be able to escape somebody trying to wrestle you by knowing how to grapple.

A combination of Rugby, boxing/kickboxing(of whatever variation) and judo/wrestling with some experience of playing them at full effort/contact will make you more experienced than most people. But they will also teach you some humility, your limits and that fighting is to be avoided.

If you have never played rough/combat sports at full contact, then your late 50s is probably not the time to start.

[SlimJim16v]

lizardbrain said:

In terms of removing yourself from a situation, after watching UFC recently, it looks to me like learning calf kicks would be useful. Very overpowered, and helps stop them chasing after you.

In a real fight you'd kick the knee or nuts. I've been teaching my grandson, 10, a few things for some time, only recently telling him about knee kicks. Recently he kicked me in the kneecap for real, fk, had me limping for a few days.

[jdw100]

MaxFromage said:

On the balance of probabilities, the only situation/fight any normal, decent person is likely to have to deal with is against a scrote who has friends. That system should teach you (and test you) to assess the situation quickly and get away asap if possible. Any time on the floor is very bad news as you'll get your head kicked in. Secondly a large proportion of those scrotes will be carrying a knife. Any altercation with a knife should come with an expectation that you're going to get hurt, so if you're not training for that, the system is failing you.

Facing a knife - yes you will get cut. Absolutely what I was taught.

Its where you get cut when defending that’s important. Easy to get ligaments in arms severed if you present the wrong part.

Did you ever try the ‘how far do you need to be away before you can turn and run without getting stabbed experiment’?

[jdw100]

Hoofy said:

jdw100 said:

Including two real jack-the-lads in a late night bar in Archway. Some perceived slight, started verbal abuse. Stood my ground, didn’t apologise but wasn’t be rude back, disrupted their train of thought by asking questions….5 minutes later we were shaking hands, they were offering me some free coke and we bought a few rounds for each other’s groups. Turns out one had been in prison for armed robbery: they absolutely would have wiped the floor with me.

Knowing, from FAST training, how I am under adrenaline, I made sure i kept my voice at a lower pitch (it can go higher) and resisted the urge to say anything apologetic.

Interesting. What sorts of questions?

It’s a decade ago so I can’t remember exactly. Might have been ‘how’s your night so far? Good?’

It would have been a neutral non-aggressive slightly off-beam question.

I certainly wouldn’t have used ‘mate, friend, buddy, bruv’ or anything like that.

Certainly not ‘sorry’ or ‘what’s the problem?’

Same in the ‘you spilled my drink!’ Doesn't matter if you did it or not.

I’d never (with an aggressive person) say sorry or no I didn’t.

I’d probably say ‘I’m going to the bar anyway, what are you drinking?’

It’s a question, so needs a bit of brain power to answer it. Not an apology - so I’m not a push over, not a push back on him either so he can say ‘yes you fking did/you calling me a liar?!?’ Also gives him a way out, doesn't lose face in front of friends/girlfriend.

Takes him processing power to find an aggressive objection. Most people would respond automatically to the question.

I’d be happy to spend £5 on a beer than get into a fight. Also gives you an opportunity to head to bar but find an exit and leave.

My business partner in a cocktail bar used similar last year with some very confrontational Russians - can’t be arsed to type all this now. It was ‘what do you want from this situation now?’ ‘I understand what you are saying, what do you want? Kept on with this…they ended up leaving. One came back a week later to apologise.

[DaveA8]

[quote=jdw100]

I agree with that. Not sure where all the grappling came from?

I raised the grappling element as from my experience based on a number of years and certainly over 2 dozen violent confrontations the vast majority ended up as some sort of hybrid wrestle, grapple and I merely pointed out that if one were to train that, not that I’m advocating it, that safety should be paramount. Broken teeth and noses can be fixed, necks not so much. Some instructors, again in my experience seem to miss this.
There are certain systems marketed that would have us believe they invented breaking the windpipe or gouging an eye and that they are so efficient that you never need to get so close that you don’t have to smell each other’s breath, if one uses that mythical system, I’d recommend the 2nd number on speed dial is a good defence solicitor, the 1st being your bro in seal team six.
God knows I have clung to people where they’ve being bettering me and I’ve deliberately gone to the ground in the vain hope I’ll have a soft landing because like I have read about drowning people we will do whatever it takes to survive and being out punched or out kicked means closing distance and that results in grappling.
Fighting but it’s nature is primal and our primal instinct is to wrestle so those you promote a system where wrestling isn’t needed must have transcended their lizard brains and that means they must have sat on top of a mountain for eons attaining total inner enlightenment or maybe they’ve never had their art tested.
I take at face value you’re interaction in Archway and how you diffused it but one swallow doesn’t make a summer, I got into martial arts as in 1987 I decided to walk home through Wembley to save money so I could have a sausage with my chips. Along the way near Chalkhill Estate 5 black guys stopped me and searched me, taking my £2 and fags. I stood frozen and one of them muttered to another at which point I see a carving knife and he slashes at my face, I manage to get my hand up and the knife hits my hand, for anyone who’s ever been told you don’t feel a knife, I can tell them you bloody well do.
All the training in the world would have done no good, all the diffusion, the only thing that would have prevented that is if I’d taken the train.
So regarding grappling I’ll put context on it, if someone trains it they need to understand and manage the risks and my general experience was borne out of being paid and avoidance wasn’t an option, the only thing more frightening that the idiot I was fighting were my colleagues who expected me to do the right thing.
These days like last week at Tesco, I just turned around and wasn’t there so no drama and no moral questions.

[Sheets Tabuer]

I did Judo as a kid as my mother was an instructor, moved on to Aikido in my teens mixed with a bit of kendo, then on to Wing Chun Kung Fu for around 7 years. Then got a bit nosey and went to the Muay Thai gym.

It was then I realised I'd been wasting my whole life and should have just gone to Muay Thai. You see the thing is you can sit there and learn flowery moves but it all goes out of the window when you're punched in the face. We'd have people come to train who had done 20 years in Karate or Kung Fu and they'd get in the ring and do the pose, then the round would start and they'd get punched in the face and all form went, it was at that point they started windmilling, no technique no style just plain old windmilling in a ring with a trained boxer.

You can guess how it went every single time.

[biggbn]

Sheets Tabuer said:

I did Judo as a kid as my mother was an instructor, moved on to Aikido in my teens mixed with a bit of kendo, then on to Wing Chun Kung Fu for around 7 years. Then got a bit nosey and went to the Muay Thai gym.

It was then I realised I'd been wasting my whole life and should have just gone to Muay Thai. You see the thing is you can sit there and learn flowery moves but it all goes out of the window when you're punched in the face. We'd have people come to train who had done 20 years in Karate or Kung Fu and they'd get in the ring and do the pose, then the round would start and they'd get punched in the face and all form went, it was at that point they started windmilling, no technique no style just plain old windmilling in a ring with a trained boxer.

You can guess how it went every single time.

Boxing for similar reasons...everyone's got a plan till....I'd argue Judo or decent grappling is also similar. You can't 'play' at these arts, it's sore, it's full on, it's suffocating. Go roll with a very accomplished grappler from any background. It is awful, amongst the most disenpowering, belittling, helpless feelings you will ever have. Total control, total vulnerability. It is just horrible.

[ColdoRS]

biggbn said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

I did Judo as a kid as my mother was an instructor, moved on to Aikido in my teens mixed with a bit of kendo, then on to Wing Chun Kung Fu for around 7 years. Then got a bit nosey and went to the Muay Thai gym.

It was then I realised I'd been wasting my whole life and should have just gone to Muay Thai. You see the thing is you can sit there and learn flowery moves but it all goes out of the window when you're punched in the face. We'd have people come to train who had done 20 years in Karate or Kung Fu and they'd get in the ring and do the pose, then the round would start and they'd get punched in the face and all form went, it was at that point they started windmilling, no technique no style just plain old windmilling in a ring with a trained boxer.

You can guess how it went every single time.

Boxing for similar reasons...everyone's got a plan till....I'd argue Judo or decent grappling is also similar. You can't 'play' at these arts, it's sore, it's full on, it's suffocating. Go roll with a very accomplished grappler from any background. It is awful, amongst the most disenpowering, belittling, helpless feelings you will ever have. Total control, total vulnerability. It is just horrible.

Yep. As a 6ft 5”, 125kg man, former rugby player, general lump, I was (mistakenly) confident about my ability to handle myself in most situations.

I moved to a new city where I knew no one so decided to try BJJ for the fitness but also the social - I left demoralised, humbled, shocked and confused for months and months and still do now 8 years on; albeit far less often.

Spend 5 minutes underneath a man half your weight but with a year or two of jiujitsu and you’ll see how crushing it can be.

If one man can hold you down, two can rape you.

[Sheets Tabuer]

How much is that lesson?

[Louis Balfour]

ColdoRS said:

If one man can hold you down, two can rape you.

I cannot help feeling you should have been more careful in your choice of club.

[biggbn]

Louis Balfour said:

ColdoRS said:

If one man can hold you down, two can rape you.

I cannot help feeling you should have been more careful in your choice of club.

Brilliant!!

[Hoofy]

jdw100 said:

It’s a decade ago so I can’t remember exactly. Might have been ‘how’s your night so far? Good?’

It would have been a neutral non-aggressive slightly off-beam question.

I certainly wouldn’t have used ‘mate, friend, buddy, bruv’ or anything like that.

Certainly not ‘sorry’ or ‘what’s the problem?’

Same in the ‘you spilled my drink!’ Doesn't matter if you did it or not.

I’d never (with an aggressive person) say sorry or no I didn’t.

I’d probably say ‘I’m going to the bar anyway, what are you drinking?’

It’s a question, so needs a bit of brain power to answer it. Not an apology - so I’m not a push over, not a push back on him either so he can say ‘yes you fking did/you calling me a liar?!?’ Also gives him a way out, doesn't lose face in front of friends/girlfriend.

Takes him processing power to find an aggressive objection. Most people would respond automatically to the question.

I’d be happy to spend £5 on a beer than get into a fight. Also gives you an opportunity to head to bar but find an exit and leave.

My business partner in a cocktail bar used similar last year with some very confrontational Russians - can’t be arsed to type all this now. It was ‘what do you want from this situation now?’ ‘I understand what you are saying, what do you want? Kept on with this…they ended up leaving. One came back a week later to apologise.

Thanks. Makes sense.

Why don't you apologise?