Could you survive a fall into water....
Discussion
Flying home last night from Stavanger to Aberdeen, there was a moment when I could smell burning. Turned out to be the cabin crew burning something in the galley... but it got me wondering.
Lets imagine you're flying at sufficient height (above the sea) to achieve terminal velocity. Lets say 10,000 ft for the sake of it. You fall or jump out of the plane.
What's your survival stragegy? Try to land on your back? Or go in feet first, legs crosseed, covering your face with your hands? Try and slow yourself with clothing or a seat cover or something?
Think I read about someone who fell out of a Russian plane into a swamp and survived...
Cheers,
FT.
Lets imagine you're flying at sufficient height (above the sea) to achieve terminal velocity. Lets say 10,000 ft for the sake of it. You fall or jump out of the plane.
What's your survival stragegy? Try to land on your back? Or go in feet first, legs crosseed, covering your face with your hands? Try and slow yourself with clothing or a seat cover or something?
Think I read about someone who fell out of a Russian plane into a swamp and survived...
Cheers,
FT.
wikipedia said:
JAT stewardess Vesna Vuloviæ survived a fall of 33,000 feet (over 10,000 meters)[1] on January 26, 1972 when she was thrown from JAT Flight 364. The plane was brought down by explosives planted by Croatian (Ustashe) terrorists over Srbská Kamenice in the former Czechoslovakia (now Czech Republic). The Serbian stewardess suffered a broken skull, three broken vertebrae, one crushed completely, and was in a coma for 27 days. In an interview she commented that, according to the man who found her, "...I was in the middle part of the plane. I was found with my head down and my colleague on top of me. One part of my body with my leg was in the plane and my head was out of the plane. A catering trolley was pinned against my spine and kept me in the plane. The man who found me, says I was very lucky. He was with Hitler's troops as a medic during the War. He was German. He knew how to treat me at the site of the accident." [2]
In World War II there were several reports of military aircrew surviving long falls: Nick Alkemade, Alan Magee, and I.M.Chisov all fell at least 5,500 meters and survived.
Freefall is not to be confused with individuals who survive instances of various degrees of controlled flight into terrain. Such impact forces affecting these instances of survival, differ from the forces which are characterized by free fall.
It was reported that two of the victims of the Lockerbie bombing survived for a brief period after hitting the ground (with the forward nose section fuselage in freefall mode), but died from their injuries before help arrived.[3]
Cheers,In World War II there were several reports of military aircrew surviving long falls: Nick Alkemade, Alan Magee, and I.M.Chisov all fell at least 5,500 meters and survived.
Freefall is not to be confused with individuals who survive instances of various degrees of controlled flight into terrain. Such impact forces affecting these instances of survival, differ from the forces which are characterized by free fall.
It was reported that two of the victims of the Lockerbie bombing survived for a brief period after hitting the ground (with the forward nose section fuselage in freefall mode), but died from their injuries before help arrived.[3]
FT.
Wouldn't be my first choice of plan, no! http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html said:
Notable Free Fallers
I.M. Chisov
Lt. I.M. Chisov was a Russian airman whose Ilyushin IL-4 bomber was attacked by German fighters in January of 1942. Falling nearly 22,000 feet, he hit the edge of a snow-covered ravine and rolled to the bottom. He was badly hurt but survived.
Alan Magee
Alan Magee, a gunner on a B-17 with the 303rd Bomb Group of the U.S. 8th Air Force, was on a mission to St. Nazaire, France in January of 1943, when his bomber was set aflame by enemy fire. He was thrown from the plane before he had a chance to put on his parachute. He fell 20,000 feet and crashed onto* the skylight of the St. Nazaire train station. His arm was badly injured, but he recovered from that and other injuries.
Nicholas Alkemade
In March of 1944, Nicholas Alkemade was the tail gunner in a British Lancaster bomber on a night mission to Berlin when his plane was attacked by German fighters. When the captain ordered the crew to bail out, Alkemade looked back into the plane and discovered that his parachute was in flames. He chose to jump without a parachute rather than to stay in the burning plane. He fell 18,000 feet, landing in trees, underbrush, and drifted snow. He twisted his knee and had some cuts, but was otherwise alright.
Olen Cooper Bryant
Olen Cooper Bryant was the group navigator on a 485th Bomb Group mission to Regensburg, Germany in February of 1945. On the return trip from the target his B-24 was hit by enemy anti-aircraft fire in the #3 engine. The aircraft turned to the left and collided with another B-24 in the formation. The aircraft were at an altitude of about 17,000 feet at this point. Bryant fell an estimated 10,000 feet into the mountains near Chiusaforte, Italy. He landed in deep snow. His fall had been observed by two gunners, who dragged him down the side of the mountain in a makeshift stretcher constructed from one of their parachutes. Bryant suffered neck, back, pelvic, and facial injuries but survived.
Cheers,I.M. Chisov
Lt. I.M. Chisov was a Russian airman whose Ilyushin IL-4 bomber was attacked by German fighters in January of 1942. Falling nearly 22,000 feet, he hit the edge of a snow-covered ravine and rolled to the bottom. He was badly hurt but survived.
Alan Magee
Alan Magee, a gunner on a B-17 with the 303rd Bomb Group of the U.S. 8th Air Force, was on a mission to St. Nazaire, France in January of 1943, when his bomber was set aflame by enemy fire. He was thrown from the plane before he had a chance to put on his parachute. He fell 20,000 feet and crashed onto* the skylight of the St. Nazaire train station. His arm was badly injured, but he recovered from that and other injuries.
- At first the descriptions of the incident made it appear that he had fallen through the skylight but it appears now that he hit the angled skylight and landed on the roof of the train station. We continue to investigate. See this link for a filmmaker's take on Magee's fall.
Nicholas Alkemade
In March of 1944, Nicholas Alkemade was the tail gunner in a British Lancaster bomber on a night mission to Berlin when his plane was attacked by German fighters. When the captain ordered the crew to bail out, Alkemade looked back into the plane and discovered that his parachute was in flames. He chose to jump without a parachute rather than to stay in the burning plane. He fell 18,000 feet, landing in trees, underbrush, and drifted snow. He twisted his knee and had some cuts, but was otherwise alright.
Olen Cooper Bryant
Olen Cooper Bryant was the group navigator on a 485th Bomb Group mission to Regensburg, Germany in February of 1945. On the return trip from the target his B-24 was hit by enemy anti-aircraft fire in the #3 engine. The aircraft turned to the left and collided with another B-24 in the formation. The aircraft were at an altitude of about 17,000 feet at this point. Bryant fell an estimated 10,000 feet into the mountains near Chiusaforte, Italy. He landed in deep snow. His fall had been observed by two gunners, who dragged him down the side of the mountain in a makeshift stretcher constructed from one of their parachutes. Bryant suffered neck, back, pelvic, and facial injuries but survived.
FT.
Some other fallers...
Joe Herman
In April of 1944, Joe Herman was the pilot of a Royal Australian Air Force Halifax on a mission to bomb munition factories at Bochum. After dropping its bombs, Herman's Halifax was struck by enemy fire. Herman ordered his crew to bail out. Before he could grab his parachute, the plane exploded and he was thrown into the air. In mid-air, he collided with John Vivash, the mid-upper gunner, and grabbed onto Vivash's left leg around the same time as Vivash was opening his parachute. The parachute inflated slowly, which helped Herman maintain his grasp on Vivash. The two men came down safely under Vivash's parachute.
Ken Topaz
In May of 1966, Flight Lt. Ken Topaz was the Air Electronics Officer on a Canberra B2 during a training flight. Experiencing troubles while landing, Topaz activated his ejection seat just as the plane's wingtip hit the ground. He ejected approximately twenty feet into the air, and landed before the parachute opened. He was badly injured but returned to flying after 18 months of hospitalization and rehabilitation. The pilot and navigator both died. Amazingly enough, Topaz is not the only person ever to have survived an ejection without also benefitting from a parachute. (See Greg Elcock below.) There is also an entry in the Incident Log in regard to another such incident. It also turns out that there are several pilots who have survived underwater ejections!
Greg Elcock
In October of 1984, Lt. Cmdr. Greg Elcock was flying a U.S. Navy EA-6B Prowler whose landing gear failed during landing on the U.S.S. Constellation (CV-64). Three electronic warfare officers in the Prowler ejected and their parachutes saved them. Elcock ejected as the aircraft nosed down into the water. He and his seat skipped across the waves and then separated. Elcock's automatic flotation device deployed and he survived with two fractured vertebrae and some internal injuries.
Al Wilson
Al Wilson was a barnstorming plane-changer (i.e., someone who would step from the wings of one plane to another in flight). One day over southern California, Wilson accidentally stepped off a wing into the air, without a parachute. A pilot named Frank Clarke was flying below and behind, and flew down toward the falling Wilson. Wilson crashed head-first into Clarke's Jenny biplane and stuck in the upper wing panel. Clarke landed the plane and Wilson emerged alive.
Cliff Judkins
In June of 1963, Lt. Cliff Judkins' F-8 Crusader jet fighter caught fire over the Pacific Ocean during refueling. His ejection seat failed and he was forced to bail out manually (something that no one had ever done successfully from an F-8). Judkins leaped from the aircraft, but his parachute did not open. He hit the water and was pulled out alive about two and a half hours later. He returned to flying after a six-month hospital stay. See the following link for a newspaper article on Judkin's fall.
Don Neville
Early in 1945, Sgt. Don Neville was a gunner on a 458th Bomb Group B-24 bomber that blew up on take-off from its base in England. He fell about 200 feet into a clump of bushes and survived. Another crew member rode the severed tail to the ground and also survived.
Eddie Szula
According to a 1942 Believe It or Not cartoon, Szula fell 2,000 feet when his parachute failed. He bounced four feet and never lost consciousness.
Colombian girl
In January of 1995 a nine-year-old Colombian girl was the only survivor of a crash of a DC-9 jet near Cartagena, Colombia. It is believed she fell out of the plane when it broke up at 9,000 feet or so. She fell into a swampy area in Maria La Baja.
Ken Wright
In June of 1945, Ken Wright was test flying a Mustang Mk 3. He engaged in some mock dogfighting, after which his aircraft began a diving turn that he could not get out of. With his airspeed indicator showing about 600 miles per hour, the plane started to disintegrate. First the tail section broke off, and then the wings. Unconscious at that point, Wright's body came free of the plane at low altitude, his parachute opening by chance. As the silk began to stream out, Wright was flung into the top branches of an oak tree, through a hedgerow, and into a farmers field where he left a trail of flattened oats about 200 yards long. Wright's wingman assumed his friend was dead, but then he saw Wright sit up. Wright was out of the hospital in three weeks and resumed flying after seven weeks.
Peter Underdown
In October of 1954, Peter Underdown was flying a North American Sabre jet fighter that disintegrated in mid-air at around 2,000 feet. He was flung, still strapped in his ejection seat, into an orchard where he was found lodged in the branches of an apple tree. He had a number of broken bones and had no memory of the incident, but he was released from the hospital four weeks later. Apparently his low trajectory, which matched the angle of the sloping ground, and the protection of the ejection seat, which was facing forward when he went into the orchard, contributed to his survival.
Najib Ibrahim
In May of 2002 Najib Ibrahim jumped from a flaming airliner onto a rooftop as the plane crashed in Kano, Nigeria. He survived with minor burns and a non-life-threatening blood clot in his liver. More than 70 passengers died and nearly as many lives were lost on the ground.
Fred Bist In mid-1942 Fred Bist was a mid-upper gunner in a Boston bomber on a low-level mission over France. His aircraft was hit by flak and broke in two. At about 500 feet, Bist was thrown from the aircraft without his parachute. He landed in a plowed field and was found by two German soldiers who took him to a hospital. In addition to burns and injuries from the flak, he also broke his neck and hand.
Ken Burns
In August of 1943 Burns was a pilot in a Lancaster bomber that was set on fire by a German night fighter. He ordered his crew to bale out, which they did, and was trimming the plane so that he could exit when the fire reached the bomb bay and blew up the 4,000 lb. bomb there. Burns was blown out of the plane and dropped three miles to the earth. He woke up about three hours later lying in a plowed field. He found his parachute unopened, but a small streamer of silk had slipped out, which may have slowed his descent some as had the branches of some nearby pine trees. Burns' right forearm had been blown away by the explosion. Other injuries included a collapsed lung and a cracked spine.
Z. Gutowski
A Polish Spitfire pilot named Gutowski was escorting some bombers back from a raid to France when his aircraft was hit by flak and knocked into a spin. He recovered from the spin in time to engage enemy fighters, but his Spitfire was hit again and sent into another spin. Too low to pull out, he bailed out at an altitude he estimated to be 150 feet. Just as his parachute began to stream out of its pack he hit a big pile of beet leaves and bounced to the ground unhurt. Ten yards away was the smoking wreckage of his plane.
Capitaine Larmier
In May of 1940, an artillery observer named Larmier was a passenger in a Potez 63. Damaged by flak, the twin-engined aircraft headed down. At about 100 feet Larmier jumped, pulled his ripcord, and hoped for the best. He hit the ground as the parachute began to stream out, landing on the top of a haystack. He survived unhurt.
R.C. Sharma
In November of 1997, R.C. Sharma, the director of the Indian Central Bureau of Investigation was seriously injured when he fell while waving from the door of an Indian Airlines plane at Borjhar Airport. However it should be noted that the plane was on the ground at the time.
Cheers,
FT.
Joe Herman
In April of 1944, Joe Herman was the pilot of a Royal Australian Air Force Halifax on a mission to bomb munition factories at Bochum. After dropping its bombs, Herman's Halifax was struck by enemy fire. Herman ordered his crew to bail out. Before he could grab his parachute, the plane exploded and he was thrown into the air. In mid-air, he collided with John Vivash, the mid-upper gunner, and grabbed onto Vivash's left leg around the same time as Vivash was opening his parachute. The parachute inflated slowly, which helped Herman maintain his grasp on Vivash. The two men came down safely under Vivash's parachute.
Ken Topaz
In May of 1966, Flight Lt. Ken Topaz was the Air Electronics Officer on a Canberra B2 during a training flight. Experiencing troubles while landing, Topaz activated his ejection seat just as the plane's wingtip hit the ground. He ejected approximately twenty feet into the air, and landed before the parachute opened. He was badly injured but returned to flying after 18 months of hospitalization and rehabilitation. The pilot and navigator both died. Amazingly enough, Topaz is not the only person ever to have survived an ejection without also benefitting from a parachute. (See Greg Elcock below.) There is also an entry in the Incident Log in regard to another such incident. It also turns out that there are several pilots who have survived underwater ejections!
Greg Elcock
In October of 1984, Lt. Cmdr. Greg Elcock was flying a U.S. Navy EA-6B Prowler whose landing gear failed during landing on the U.S.S. Constellation (CV-64). Three electronic warfare officers in the Prowler ejected and their parachutes saved them. Elcock ejected as the aircraft nosed down into the water. He and his seat skipped across the waves and then separated. Elcock's automatic flotation device deployed and he survived with two fractured vertebrae and some internal injuries.
Al Wilson
Al Wilson was a barnstorming plane-changer (i.e., someone who would step from the wings of one plane to another in flight). One day over southern California, Wilson accidentally stepped off a wing into the air, without a parachute. A pilot named Frank Clarke was flying below and behind, and flew down toward the falling Wilson. Wilson crashed head-first into Clarke's Jenny biplane and stuck in the upper wing panel. Clarke landed the plane and Wilson emerged alive.
Cliff Judkins
In June of 1963, Lt. Cliff Judkins' F-8 Crusader jet fighter caught fire over the Pacific Ocean during refueling. His ejection seat failed and he was forced to bail out manually (something that no one had ever done successfully from an F-8). Judkins leaped from the aircraft, but his parachute did not open. He hit the water and was pulled out alive about two and a half hours later. He returned to flying after a six-month hospital stay. See the following link for a newspaper article on Judkin's fall.
Don Neville
Early in 1945, Sgt. Don Neville was a gunner on a 458th Bomb Group B-24 bomber that blew up on take-off from its base in England. He fell about 200 feet into a clump of bushes and survived. Another crew member rode the severed tail to the ground and also survived.
Eddie Szula
According to a 1942 Believe It or Not cartoon, Szula fell 2,000 feet when his parachute failed. He bounced four feet and never lost consciousness.
Colombian girl
In January of 1995 a nine-year-old Colombian girl was the only survivor of a crash of a DC-9 jet near Cartagena, Colombia. It is believed she fell out of the plane when it broke up at 9,000 feet or so. She fell into a swampy area in Maria La Baja.
Ken Wright
In June of 1945, Ken Wright was test flying a Mustang Mk 3. He engaged in some mock dogfighting, after which his aircraft began a diving turn that he could not get out of. With his airspeed indicator showing about 600 miles per hour, the plane started to disintegrate. First the tail section broke off, and then the wings. Unconscious at that point, Wright's body came free of the plane at low altitude, his parachute opening by chance. As the silk began to stream out, Wright was flung into the top branches of an oak tree, through a hedgerow, and into a farmers field where he left a trail of flattened oats about 200 yards long. Wright's wingman assumed his friend was dead, but then he saw Wright sit up. Wright was out of the hospital in three weeks and resumed flying after seven weeks.
Peter Underdown
In October of 1954, Peter Underdown was flying a North American Sabre jet fighter that disintegrated in mid-air at around 2,000 feet. He was flung, still strapped in his ejection seat, into an orchard where he was found lodged in the branches of an apple tree. He had a number of broken bones and had no memory of the incident, but he was released from the hospital four weeks later. Apparently his low trajectory, which matched the angle of the sloping ground, and the protection of the ejection seat, which was facing forward when he went into the orchard, contributed to his survival.
Najib Ibrahim
In May of 2002 Najib Ibrahim jumped from a flaming airliner onto a rooftop as the plane crashed in Kano, Nigeria. He survived with minor burns and a non-life-threatening blood clot in his liver. More than 70 passengers died and nearly as many lives were lost on the ground.
Fred Bist In mid-1942 Fred Bist was a mid-upper gunner in a Boston bomber on a low-level mission over France. His aircraft was hit by flak and broke in two. At about 500 feet, Bist was thrown from the aircraft without his parachute. He landed in a plowed field and was found by two German soldiers who took him to a hospital. In addition to burns and injuries from the flak, he also broke his neck and hand.
Ken Burns
In August of 1943 Burns was a pilot in a Lancaster bomber that was set on fire by a German night fighter. He ordered his crew to bale out, which they did, and was trimming the plane so that he could exit when the fire reached the bomb bay and blew up the 4,000 lb. bomb there. Burns was blown out of the plane and dropped three miles to the earth. He woke up about three hours later lying in a plowed field. He found his parachute unopened, but a small streamer of silk had slipped out, which may have slowed his descent some as had the branches of some nearby pine trees. Burns' right forearm had been blown away by the explosion. Other injuries included a collapsed lung and a cracked spine.
Z. Gutowski
A Polish Spitfire pilot named Gutowski was escorting some bombers back from a raid to France when his aircraft was hit by flak and knocked into a spin. He recovered from the spin in time to engage enemy fighters, but his Spitfire was hit again and sent into another spin. Too low to pull out, he bailed out at an altitude he estimated to be 150 feet. Just as his parachute began to stream out of its pack he hit a big pile of beet leaves and bounced to the ground unhurt. Ten yards away was the smoking wreckage of his plane.
Capitaine Larmier
In May of 1940, an artillery observer named Larmier was a passenger in a Potez 63. Damaged by flak, the twin-engined aircraft headed down. At about 100 feet Larmier jumped, pulled his ripcord, and hoped for the best. He hit the ground as the parachute began to stream out, landing on the top of a haystack. He survived unhurt.
R.C. Sharma
In November of 1997, R.C. Sharma, the director of the Indian Central Bureau of Investigation was seriously injured when he fell while waving from the door of an Indian Airlines plane at Borjhar Airport. However it should be noted that the plane was on the ground at the time.
Cheers,
FT.
scorp said:
Fume troll said:
A couple of points of order:
People posting "certain death" are clearly wrong.
Do you have any counter points ? as all the examples you listed either didnt specify the height or didnt specify water.People posting "certain death" are clearly wrong.
I'd bet there were WW2 airmen who survived the fall into the water, and drowned later or died of their injuries.
Cheers,
FT.
pdV6 said:
Fume troll said:
Well it seems (to me, at least) that if people have survived significant falls into trees, snow and swamps, then water should be survivable too.
Er, the point being that the trees, snow & swamps decelerated their bodies in a (slightly) more controlled fashion than concrete / water.Cheers,
FT.
filski666 said:
Jonny671 said:
esselte said:
Jonny671 said:
Did anyone see what they did on Mythbusters?
They dropped "Buster" from about 60ft and he just basically broke into pieces. They even dropped a hammer first to break the surface of the water, it did no better.
Their outcome was certain death even from that little height.
I don't think that's quite right...people dive from 20 metres regularly with no ill effects...They dropped "Buster" from about 60ft and he just basically broke into pieces. They even dropped a hammer first to break the surface of the water, it did no better.
Their outcome was certain death even from that little height.
Edited by filski666 on Wednesday 23 July 13:28
Cheers,
FT.
Vesuvius 996 said:
Fume troll said:
I LOVE Pistonheads!!
Great work!
Summary:
Cheers,
FT.
Munter said:
Vesuvius 996 said:
Fume troll said:
I LOVE Pistonheads!!Great work!
Good luck.
Cheers,
FT.
TonyHetherington said:
V996 - couldn't agree, PH is brilliant for stuff like this 
Where else would someone be able to find a 43yr old paper entitled "Surviving high velocity falls into water" in a thread named "could you survive a fall into water...."
fan bloody tastic
Isn't that agreeing??Where else would someone be able to find a 43yr old paper entitled "Surviving high velocity falls into water" in a thread named "could you survive a fall into water...."
fan bloody tastic
Cheers,
FT.
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