SEN child - school not meeting needs... advice needed!

[DoubleSix]

As per the title, I have a child who is both autistic and ADHD. We fought to have these diagnoses correctly undertaken by a pediatric consultant and my wife successfully navigated the route to my son gaining an EHCP when he was just 6, he is 9 now.

Whilst I am an engaged father, I am not an expert on either his medical or educational needs and presently feel somewhat out of my depth. Historically my wife has taken the strain with the endless school issues but I am stepping in to relieve some of that as she has recently got a new job. She works in the medical sector so it has made sense she takes the lead historically.

My son is very high-functioning. Extremely able and bright and should, in my opinion, have no issue achieving "normal" academic milestones. Yes, his behaviour is very challenging and his focus and short-term memory are affected by his conditions but he has consistently surprised me with his intelligence and perception.

He attends what is regarded as one of the best primary schools in our city. Outstanding on Ofsted consistently.

We get reports from school saying he is "working to expected levels" and they are "happy" with his academic progress if not the ongoing behavioural challenges - swearing, outbursts, disruption etc.

So what's the problem?

I recently engaged in some basic homework with him and I was quite shocked at what he couldn't do and didn't know. I also recently started him off with a highly regarded private tutor who was also quite shocked and raised her concerns with me.

The school seem to be very willing to move him out of the classroom (into the "blue room" for some calm time) whenever he is disruptive and I am concerned this is hindering his learning. Recently they proposed he not attend French lessons and undertake some French with an LSA instead. My gut tells me the French teacher has no patience for him based on his feedback to me. It seems all too easy to exclude him rather than adapt the teaching to his needs. His EHCP provides the school with funding for 1-2-1 support but that of course is not a teacher, it is an LSA, and not a substitute for qualified teaching in my view.

As an example: he couldn't do basic subtraction, but 15 minutes of direct teaching from me and he was whipping through the questions... so he is able!

There is a mismatch between the school reports telling us his learning is fine and what I and his tutor see before our eyes.

I have asked the head teacher for a meeting next week and also asked for data on how much time my son is spending outside of the classroom. Beyond that I do not really know how to hold the school to account, what language will elicit the right response without triggering defenses etc.

I work in finance and find the cuddly world of primary education challenging. I know banging my fists on the desk isn't going to help so I would really appreciate any advice on how to approach this meeting. How to get my concerns across and not be fobbed off. I am very sympathetic to the challenges the school faces but must ensure my son receives the education he is entitled to and that the efforts to secure his EHCP are not squandered or even abused...

I would really appreciate any advice from those with insights in this area.

Edited by DoubleSix on Friday 14th March 16:30

[Ezra]

Is private education an option?

All my 3 kids went to private school. The boys went to an academically focussed school which was excellent for them. My daughter, who was/is slightly SEN, went to a much more pastorally focussed private school and she totally thrived there. She's now got great GCSE's, A levels, a top uni Primary education degree and is a fully qualified primary school teacher. The private school environment she had was a massive factor in where she is now.

[chucklebutty]

Ezra said:

Is private education an option?

All my 3 kids went to private school. The boys went to an academically focussed school which was excellent for them. My daughter, who was/is slightly SEN, went to a much more pastorally focussed private school and she totally thrived there. She's now got great GCSE's, A levels, a top uni Primary education degree and is a fully qualified primary school teacher. The private school environment she had was a massive factor in where she is now.

Agreed. You usually get better outcomes as a paying customer than you do in a state school. Especially if the private school is strong on pastoral care.

[SierraWhiskey]

DoubleSix said:

As per the title, I have a child who is both autistic and ADHD. We fought to have these diagnoses correctly undertaken by a pediatric consultant and my wife successfully navigated the route to my son gaining an EHCP when he was just 6, he is 9 now.

Whilst I am an engaged father, I am not an expert on either his medical or educational needs and presently feel somewhat out of my depth. Historically my wife has taken the strain with the endless school issues but I am stepping in to relieve some of that as she has recently got a new job. She works in the medical sector so it has made sense she takes the lead historically.

My son is very high-functioning. Extremely able and bright and should, in my opinion, have no issue achieving "normal" academic milestones. Yes, his behaviour is very challenging and his focus and short-term memory are affected by his conditions but he has consistently surprised me with his intelligence and perception.

He attends what is regarded as one of the best primary schools in our city. Outstanding on Ofsted consistently.

We get reports from school saying he is "working to expected levels" and they are "happy" with his academic progress if not the ongoing behavioural challenges - swearing, outbursts, disruption etc.

So what's the problem?

I recently engaged in some basic homework with him and I was quite shocked at what he couldn't do and didn't know. I also recently started him off with a highly regarded private tutor who was also quite shocked and raised her concerns with me.

The school seem to be very willing to move him out of the classroom (into the "blue room" for some calm time) whenever he is disruptive and I am concerned this is hindering his learning. Recently they proposed he not attend French lessons and undertake some French with an LSA instead. My gut tells me the French teacher has no patience for him based on his feedback to me. It seems all too easy to exclude him rather than adapt the teaching to his needs. His EHCP provides the school with funding for 1-2-1 support but that of course is not a teacher, it is an LSA, and not a substitute for qualified teaching in my view.

As an example: he couldn't do basic subtraction, but 15 minutes of direct teaching from me and he was whipping through the questions... so he is able!

There is a mismatch between the school reports telling us his learning is fine and what I and his tutor see before our eyes.

I have asked the head teacher for a meeting next week and also asked for data on how much time my son is spending outside of the classroom. Beyond that I do not really know how to hold the school to account, what language will elicit the right response without triggering defenses etc.

I work in finance and find the cuddly world of primary education challenging. I know banging my fists on the desk isn't going to help so I would really appreciate any advice on how to approach this meeting. How to get my concerns across and not be fobbed off. I am very sympathetic to the challenges the school faces but must ensure my son receives the education he is entitled to and that the efforts to secure his EHCP are not squandered or even abused...

I would really appreciate any advice from those with insights in this area.

Edited by DoubleSix on Friday 14th March 16:30

I also have SEN children and have been/still going through everything you've described.

My advice would be to approach the meeting with school as a partnership and to share strategies that you may have to help them deal with your son's behaviour in the classroom where possible. NVR and Pace strategies will help to de-escalate - offer to share any articles/books/texts/videos that you may have that will help them further understand your son's needs. Make sure you're on the same side and working towards creating the best opportunities for your son's education together.

Encourage the school to find any patterns in the disruptive behaviour that result in your son being removed from the classroom. All behaviour is communication, and they need to try and establish what it is he's communicating. Is he finding the classroom too noisy/busy? Is he getting regular sensory breaks? Children with ADHD need to move. Is he finding any of the work difficult? Is he actually getting full 1-2-1 support in the classroom, or is the person supporting him also being used as wider support in the classroom?

You might also find that the school can't really meet his needs effectively and he may need to be in a different educational setting that have staff with the specialist training required.

[eldar]

chucklebutty said:

Agreed. You usually get better outcomes as a paying customer than you do in a state school. Especially if the private school is strong on pastoral care.

Yup. My daughter is a teacher at such a school, having good SEN resources. Partly the school's ethos and a much better pupil/teacher ratio. Outcomes are generally excellent all round.

[TownIdiot]

I am not sure you can address the behavioural issues as a separate issue to the academic.

Surely the former will lead to issues with the latter? The use of a tutor should help make up inevitable lost ground.

[wiggy001]

SierraWhiskey said:

I also have SEN children and have been/still going through everything you've described.

My advice would be to approach the meeting with school as a partnership and to share strategies that you may have to help them deal with your son's behaviour in the classroom where possible. NVR and Pace strategies will help to de-escalate - offer to share any articles/books/texts/videos that you may have that will help them further understand your son's needs. Make sure you're on the same side and working towards creating the best opportunities for your son's education together.

Encourage the school to find any patterns in the disruptive behaviour that result in your son being removed from the classroom. All behaviour is communication, and they need to try and establish what it is he's communicating. Is he finding the classroom too noisy/busy? Is he getting regular sensory breaks? Children with ADHD need to move. Is he finding any of the work difficult? Is he actually getting full 1-2-1 support in the classroom, or is the person supporting him also being used as wider support in the classroom?

You might also find that the school can't really meet his needs effectively and he may need to be in a different educational setting that have staff with the specialist training required.

Based on my own experience I would absolutely echo this. Additionally, I would want to know what data they have to support the notion that the child is making progress, and challenge whether this is "expected progress" or just "progress". I battled against the local authority for 3 years because my daughter was "making progress" according to the school; technically she was going forwards but relative to her peers and where she should be she was losing ground. It was only after we could prove through data (assessments and her senco rephrasing the annual review paperwork), plus the threat of tribunal, that we finally got my daughter into a specialist school where she is now doing really well and catching up to where she should be.

Only you will know what your school is like but for me I had to work with the school but I also needs to fight against the local authority and be that squeaky wheel.

Lastly - you say you have an EHCP - is it a) fit for purpose, b) being implemented fully and c) actually achieving the desired outcomes? If not it needs updating which is done at an annual review, but you are entitled to call for an "emergency" or "off cycle" annual review if you need to.

Good luck!

[BoRED S2upid]

School will do the minimum required you are doing the right thing with a private tutor filling in the gaps. I’m not sure you will get much more from state funded schools the teacher will be trying to teach 30+ kids at the same time an impossible task.

[okgo]

My son is younger than yours and at a private school, I’ve been seriously impressed with the support he is getting for a few attention based issues. I don’t have an EHCP or anything but they are very much on it with a number of daily things they’re doing and other staff they can call on to support him.

I’m sure a tutor will fill many of the gaps but given some of your recent postings on the private school thread I think I’d find the cash and go private.

[Sway]

Isn't it the case that ECHP kids gets excluded from performance reporting? Perhaps less relevant to primary school but it's always wound me up the disproportionate attention given to those who are predicted to fail, but 'could' get to a C (or current equivalent) at GCSE.

Leaving kids that could achieve much more to do 'ok' with a B via bugger all support.

Hope you get things sorted OP - it's horrible seeing kids not achieving their full potential.

[DoubleSix]

Thanks for everyones posts, really appreciate it (I will attempt to answer some of the questions posed at some point).

Issue with moving him to private is we’ve moved him once already, at the beginning of year three, and my wife (and i!) has concerns about further moves…

He’s very popular and has formed some lovely friendships. He’s happy and blissfully unaware of our concerns.

That won’t stop me moving him if that’s the right thing to do but i can’t ignore those facts. It feels high risk.

Just to reiterate; it’s a highly regarded school in an affluent part of town. For what that’s worth…

Edited by DoubleSix on Friday 14th March 19:01

[Sheepshanks]

DoubleSix said:

..... school in an affluent part of town.

Other parents will be being very vocal if they feel your son is disrupting the classroom. Affluent parents are a nightmare for nice state schools.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Friday 14th March 20:34

[Vsix and Vtec]

Personally, I'd continue as you've started. The school will do thier best to educate your child, but with the best will in the world if he's taking the attention that the other 30 need and isn't letting the attention be shared out, they have to make a choice, do they teach your child, and further the advances of one, or do they give him space to handle his moment, and further the other 30? I feel unless your child is able to better integrate with the mainstream system, you're looking at either SEN schools, private tutors or as you've done, stepping in and doing a bit of catch-up teaching yourself. If he's that bright, maybe you can talk to them about this, and they can be part of the solution? Anything you try to put in place has to involve him after all.

[LooneyTunes]

DoubleSix said:

Issue with moving him to private is we’ve moved him once already, at the beginning of year three, and my wife (and i!) has concerns about further moves…

<snip>

That won’t stop me moving him if that’s the right thing to do but i can’t ignore those facts. It feels high risk.

Whatever you do, do not fall into the trap of thinking that private is better: The best school for your child is the best school for your child.

There is every possibility that that could be a private school, but only if it has the right ethos and is going to support him all the way through. You could find a private school that will take him at junior level but not be able (or want) to do so at senior.

Fwiw, I don’t entirely agree with the comments about the nature of meeting you should have. Sure, you don’t want to fall out with the school but you do need to remember that the EHCP defined support package is legally binding, so ask difficult questions.

For example:

The 1-2-1: how much support does the EHCP specify (it should be quantified). Does your child actually get it? Or is there simply a classroom assistant who gives your child some support but not everything defined by the EHCP. Many schools will squirm at this question… for the simple reason that the budget allocated to your child might end up in the pot with the rest of the school’s money.

Is it the same 1-2-1 day in day out? If the EHCP doesn’t specify it, then it may well not be. Could it be?

Can you meet the 1-2-1 if you haven’t already done so? Do they understand your child and what their needs are? Not all realise that the approach they take needs to be flexible and they are there to support that child in the way the child needs. Some are wannabe teachers, and that’s not always what is needed.

Basically think about things from the standpoint of what should be definitely, and then ideally, getting delivered.

Be extremely careful about what they say about any special rooms, enhanced provision arrangements. Find out exactly how they work and whether they deal with children with similar profiles. It is not uncommon for them to focus on complex cases where there are learning difficulties and/or disabilities beyond neurodiversity.

Vsix and Vtec said:

I feel unless your child is able to better integrate with the mainstream system, you're looking at either SEN schools, private tutors or as you've done, stepping in and doing a bit of catch-up teaching yourself. If he's that bright, maybe you can talk to them about this, and they can be part of the solution? Anything you try to put in place has to involve him after all.

It would be wrong to assume that all mainstream is the same. Finding the right school is key. SEN schools are an obvious alternative until you start to dig deeper: very few would be suitable for a high-functioning, intelligent, child with no issues beyond nerodiversity. They are also extremely expensive. Private tutoring can seem like a sensible idea but one needs to consider the way that the daytime environment can affect neuordiverse children: it is easy to end up with school avoidance behaviours and/or in-class behaviours that can be problematic to unpick.

If he’s 9 now, you really need to be thinking hard about senior school. Whatever happens between now and then will help/harm transition but you need to be aiming to get the right senior school named especially because, if that turns out to be an independent, your LA may fight you every inch of the way.

[Sheepshanks]

LooneyTunes said:

If he’s 9 now, you really need to be thinking hard about senior school. Whatever happens between now and then will help/harm transition but you need to be aiming to get the right senior school named especially because, if that turns out to be an independent, your LA may fight you every inch of the way.

Why would the LA fight him?

[LeftmostAardvark]

Sheepshanks said:

Why would the LA fight him?

Money

[TownIdiot]

What support are you getting for his behaviour?

If he's having outbursts and swearing at teachers I would have thought he'd be excluded regularly wherever he goes, probably even more so at a private school.

[LeftmostAardvark]

And to add to the previous comments. An EHCP is a statutory document so schools must take note of it (and usually don’t). Look into strategies for forcing the school to adopt certain approaches (such as positive behaviour support: https://www.challengingbehaviour.org.uk/informatio... is a random link).

The approach should be to help understand the needs of your child and use appropriate strategies to make sure they’re ready and able to learn. It normally flies directly in the face of standard pre-16 behaviour contracts. Ofsted are making slow progress on forcing schools to adjust to meet need, but there’s a lot of resistance. Find the ones you like and name it in EHCP then wield that like a weapon (although be careful to push so hard that your preferred school doesn’t use words like ‘inefficient education of others’ or ‘can’t meet need’)

SEND code of practice is your friend: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/send-co...

My background: I run a post-16 specialist org (100% EHCP). If you need pointers, let me know.

[LooneyTunes]

Sheepshanks said:

LooneyTunes said:

If he’s 9 now, you really need to be thinking hard about senior school. Whatever happens between now and then will help/harm transition but you need to be aiming to get the right senior school named especially because, if that turns out to be an independent, your LA may fight you every inch of the way.

Why would the LA fight him?

Three reasons that apply in varying degrees:

1) Some LAs are extremely opposed to independent provision of any kind;
2) When a school is named in the EHCP the LA must, in most circumstances, pay for it;
3) Many LAs are struggling with the cost of provision: it isn’t (but should be) a direct pass through from central government.

Looking at 2 in more detail, there is a carve out where LAs don’t have to pay for provision if the placement is due to parental choice and the LA has been able to offer other suitable provision.

The good news is that LA lose over 96% of cases that go to tribunal. The bad news is that taking a case to tribunal can take a year or more, in which time the child may not be getting the educational support that he/she needs.

The obvious point that also flows from the LA success rate is that there are clear issues with the system… you do not get 96%+ of decisions being overturned or amended if a system is functioning correctly. Indeed the statistics are massively out of line with other similar tribunals. The cynic would suggest that this is because LAs know that the delays are lengthy and (unlike other tribunals) they don’t generally have to put their hands in their pockets to make people whole for the period between original decision and that of the tribunal - so they can save money by detailing inadequate provision even though they know parents will appeal (and probably win).

Of course, there will be some parents who don’t appeal, especially if they are dissuaded by LAs making it seem intimidating (which some do) and/or are already worn down by the process to that point.

The system is utterly broken: some LAs will, for example, not allow you to directly fund additional provision within a school setting. I was able to do so at an independent, but friends could not in the state system (because it “wasn’t fair” on other kids whose parents could not do the same). You can of course ignore the EHCP system, and avoid the stress associated with it, but then you strip away the legal protections that it brings: that can be a double edged sword.

It is especially difficult with children like the OP describes: there is still much misunderstanding of neurodiversity and the default provision veers towards the more traditional view of learning disability (which in some cases may be appropriate) and very little thought/provision put in for the highest functioning end of the spectrum.

[LooneyTunes]

LeftmostAardvark said:

Find the ones you like and name it in EHCP then wield that like a weapon (although be careful to push so hard that your preferred school doesn’t use words like ‘inefficient education of others’ or ‘can’t meet need’)

From what I hear, this language is increasingly being used locally to me in order to avoid the enforced placements that LAs can otherwise make (in the state system). Schools have got wise to the risks of them making weaker statements of similar sentiment and are now incorporating the language included in statute/statutory guidance instead.

You’ll know this already, but for the benefit of others, a school gets named by the LA when drafting/updating the plan or following direction by the tribunal.

Ultimately the EHCP should be drafted with such precision: that has the effect of excluding unsuitable provision, which then makes naming suitable provision much more straightforward.

Nobody should assume either that LAs will make parents aware of all of the provision options locally. You really do need to do some research.

Edited by LooneyTunes on Saturday 15th March 08:16