Why don't wealthy criminals abscond or flee?
Discussion
I watch and read quite a lot of stuff about financial crimes, and other high value criminal or fraud activity. I find it fascinating.
I have just finished rewatching the fantastic series on Netflix: Madoff - The monster of Wall Street, and yet again I find me wondering why on earth criminals with millions of pounds (or tens/hundreds of millions) at their disposal, just simply sit there and wait for the authorities to arrest them, charge them, or sentence them. Even after being caught and found guilty, they still sit there like a lemon waiting for sentencing, when they could be running.
They make no effort to plan for the eventual arrest. They make no plan to escape before the arrest. Even when they know the law is getting close to them, they still just carry on and wait for the knock on the door.
I don't shout at the TV over much, but when watching documentaries or dramatisations of real life crimes, thefts, and frauds, I find myself regularly getting high blood pressure over the stupidity of failing to escape. Many of these crimes are complex and clever, often requiring a lot intelligence and planning, so it isn't a lack of ability that causes the failure to escape.
In the case of Bernie Madoff, he was committing financial fraud totalling a loss to the victims of around $19 billion, over a period of 17 years. Plenty of time to buy a few nice properties in warm countries that have no extradition treaties. Maybe even buy a bit of extra land, buy some businesses over there, stick some money in local banks for use when it all goes south. But no. Nothing. He just waited to be sentenced to 150 years and his whole family be stripped of every last penny.
At the other end of the scale, but still taking very large quantities of money, was The Great Train Robbery. The ringleaders of the gang ended up with the equivalent of £70 million in today's money. They ended up with slightly more than they expected, but not by that much. They deliberately waited until a bank holiday weekend to maximise the take. Again, absolutely zero plan to do anything with the cash. Just wait at home and eventually get caught, and handed massive sentences, as they all did. Bruce Reynolds being on the run for 4 years in various countries, before being arrested, doesn't really count as a plan.
If I was Bruce Reynolds or Ronnie Biggs, I would have planned my escape for that very night same night. Passports for the wife and kids, suitcases packed, car loaded, car filled with petrol, spare can of petrol in the boot, valuables and anything they needed to take all stashed in the car, hidden compartment made in the car for the stolen money, tickets bought for the night ferry to Calais. Then when the money was robbed, split it as quickly as possible, drive back to London in a disposable car, burn out the car, get in the pre-prepared car with the family, drive to Dover and be driving through France by the time the world had woken up the next morning and realised what had happened. Drive to Switzerland, invest the money in a Swiss bank, take a chunk back out in US dollars, and buy some flights to somewhere warm and cheap with reasonably priced properties. Keep taking the interest from your Swiss bank when you need a top up.
There are absolutely countless examples of throughout the years of utter failure, by high level fraudsters, thieves, and criminals, to escape with any competency. Despite these people absolutely having more than enough money and connections to do so.
Rant over
I have just finished rewatching the fantastic series on Netflix: Madoff - The monster of Wall Street, and yet again I find me wondering why on earth criminals with millions of pounds (or tens/hundreds of millions) at their disposal, just simply sit there and wait for the authorities to arrest them, charge them, or sentence them. Even after being caught and found guilty, they still sit there like a lemon waiting for sentencing, when they could be running.
They make no effort to plan for the eventual arrest. They make no plan to escape before the arrest. Even when they know the law is getting close to them, they still just carry on and wait for the knock on the door.
I don't shout at the TV over much, but when watching documentaries or dramatisations of real life crimes, thefts, and frauds, I find myself regularly getting high blood pressure over the stupidity of failing to escape. Many of these crimes are complex and clever, often requiring a lot intelligence and planning, so it isn't a lack of ability that causes the failure to escape.
In the case of Bernie Madoff, he was committing financial fraud totalling a loss to the victims of around $19 billion, over a period of 17 years. Plenty of time to buy a few nice properties in warm countries that have no extradition treaties. Maybe even buy a bit of extra land, buy some businesses over there, stick some money in local banks for use when it all goes south. But no. Nothing. He just waited to be sentenced to 150 years and his whole family be stripped of every last penny.
At the other end of the scale, but still taking very large quantities of money, was The Great Train Robbery. The ringleaders of the gang ended up with the equivalent of £70 million in today's money. They ended up with slightly more than they expected, but not by that much. They deliberately waited until a bank holiday weekend to maximise the take. Again, absolutely zero plan to do anything with the cash. Just wait at home and eventually get caught, and handed massive sentences, as they all did. Bruce Reynolds being on the run for 4 years in various countries, before being arrested, doesn't really count as a plan.
If I was Bruce Reynolds or Ronnie Biggs, I would have planned my escape for that very night same night. Passports for the wife and kids, suitcases packed, car loaded, car filled with petrol, spare can of petrol in the boot, valuables and anything they needed to take all stashed in the car, hidden compartment made in the car for the stolen money, tickets bought for the night ferry to Calais. Then when the money was robbed, split it as quickly as possible, drive back to London in a disposable car, burn out the car, get in the pre-prepared car with the family, drive to Dover and be driving through France by the time the world had woken up the next morning and realised what had happened. Drive to Switzerland, invest the money in a Swiss bank, take a chunk back out in US dollars, and buy some flights to somewhere warm and cheap with reasonably priced properties. Keep taking the interest from your Swiss bank when you need a top up.
There are absolutely countless examples of throughout the years of utter failure, by high level fraudsters, thieves, and criminals, to escape with any competency. Despite these people absolutely having more than enough money and connections to do so.
Rant over
Ego.
Massive cons are carried out by massive conmen (and women) with massive egos.
They are such convincing con artists, the first victim of their con is themselves. They truly believe thay are cleverer than everybody and will never be caught.
And when they are caught, they truly believe they will be able to convice the legal system not to convict them.
Massive cons are carried out by massive conmen (and women) with massive egos.
They are such convincing con artists, the first victim of their con is themselves. They truly believe thay are cleverer than everybody and will never be caught.
And when they are caught, they truly believe they will be able to convice the legal system not to convict them.
The Train Robbers did have plans. Just not very good ones. Just because they had the wherewithal to pull it off doesn't mean they had the same capacity of forethought and planning to avoid capture. As it turns out, they didn't.
Madoff was a sociopath. Some argue he had a touch of psychopathy. It is a baked in personality disorder where of the many 'symptoms' is a hard-wired, immovable belief that they are above capture and conviction. The risk of them being caught, to them, doesn't exist as a possibility. Even when they are caught, the severity of what is to follow fails to register. It's this detachment from reality that emboldens them to do what they do. They don't run because they perceive there to be no need to.
As Eric mentioned, ego plays a part. My guess is that if you have acquired for yourself a high level of wealth and remain amongst your current life, you become a Whale amongst Minnows. If you take that wealth and bugger off to Monaco or Panama or wherever, you are just a Whale amongst other Whales.
I'd also imagine that disappearing is a sure fire way to demonstrate guilt. If you believe you can get away with it, staying put might be a way to throw the Police off scent. If someone's knicked a few million, why's he still living in that council house?
Madoff was a sociopath. Some argue he had a touch of psychopathy. It is a baked in personality disorder where of the many 'symptoms' is a hard-wired, immovable belief that they are above capture and conviction. The risk of them being caught, to them, doesn't exist as a possibility. Even when they are caught, the severity of what is to follow fails to register. It's this detachment from reality that emboldens them to do what they do. They don't run because they perceive there to be no need to.
As Eric mentioned, ego plays a part. My guess is that if you have acquired for yourself a high level of wealth and remain amongst your current life, you become a Whale amongst Minnows. If you take that wealth and bugger off to Monaco or Panama or wherever, you are just a Whale amongst other Whales.
I'd also imagine that disappearing is a sure fire way to demonstrate guilt. If you believe you can get away with it, staying put might be a way to throw the Police off scent. If someone's knicked a few million, why's he still living in that council house?
Edited by StevieBee on Tuesday 14th January 13:48
mac96 said:
When it comes to it, I expect a lot of them don't really fancy seeing out their days in a 'safe' country.
And you would never know when that country might give you back, even in the absence of an extradion treaty, as part of a negotiation on something bigger.
I'm sure Assad is having a great time in Russia though. Nice change of temperature for him and who wouldn't want to owe their life/personal safety to Putin? And you would never know when that country might give you back, even in the absence of an extradion treaty, as part of a negotiation on something bigger.
Eric Mc said:
Ego.
Massive cons are carried out by massive conmen (and women) with massive egos.
They are such convincing con artists, the first victim of their con is themselves. They truly believe thay are cleverer than everybody and will never be caught.
And when they are caught, they truly believe they will be able to convice the legal system not to convict them.
^ What he said.Massive cons are carried out by massive conmen (and women) with massive egos.
They are such convincing con artists, the first victim of their con is themselves. They truly believe thay are cleverer than everybody and will never be caught.
And when they are caught, they truly believe they will be able to convice the legal system not to convict them.
Eric Mc said:
Ego.
Massive cons are carried out by massive conmen (and women) with massive egos.
They are such convincing con artists, the first victim of their con is themselves. They truly believe thay are cleverer than everybody and will never be caught.
And when they are caught, they truly believe they will be able to convice the legal system not to convict them.
I absolutely get that they often have huge egos, but my view is that the ego would surely want to have the last laugh sitting on a beach somewhere and driving a Ferrari. If you are are spending 10, 20, 30+ years in prison and being stripped of every asset and every last few quid, that surely doesn't work for your ego of being untouchable or being a winner?Massive cons are carried out by massive conmen (and women) with massive egos.
They are such convincing con artists, the first victim of their con is themselves. They truly believe thay are cleverer than everybody and will never be caught.
And when they are caught, they truly believe they will be able to convice the legal system not to convict them.
In the case of Madoff, he actually confessed to the authorities when he realised that his scheme would eventually collapse. He didn't even try to get a 'Not guilty' conviction. I just don't know why would he deliberately walk into a concrete cell to start a 150 year sentence, which is what he did.
He could have easily fled at any time and had the last laugh. I just find it all very odd.
The Rotrex Kid said:
mac96 said:
When it comes to it, I expect a lot of them don't really fancy seeing out their days in a 'safe' country.
And you would never know when that country might give you back, even in the absence of an extradion treaty, as part of a negotiation on something bigger.
I'm sure Assad is having a great time in Russia though. Nice change of temperature for him and who wouldn't want to owe their life/personal safety to Putin? And you would never know when that country might give you back, even in the absence of an extradion treaty, as part of a negotiation on something bigger.
When the money involved is so large they will find you more often than not, certainly Madoff had nowhere to go really and it was the FC that revealed the situation so happened quickly had that not happened it would have probably only come to light after his death.
As for the train robbers life isn't a movie and nothing happens in a vacuum, the law has a pretty long arm when it wants to, having said that most of the brinks mat gold was never found so somebody had a pay day
Not sure if The Great Train Robbers is the best example.
Bruce Reynolds escaped and lived in Mexico, Canada and France for 5 years. He was only captured because he returned to the UK because he had blown his proceeds from the crime.
Ronnie Biggs was detained for 30yrs but escaped after only 13 months, living as a free man in Australia and Brazil for 30 years before returning to the UK only on the grounds of ill health. He hardly sat around waiting to be nicked.
Bruce Reynolds escaped and lived in Mexico, Canada and France for 5 years. He was only captured because he returned to the UK because he had blown his proceeds from the crime.
Ronnie Biggs was detained for 30yrs but escaped after only 13 months, living as a free man in Australia and Brazil for 30 years before returning to the UK only on the grounds of ill health. He hardly sat around waiting to be nicked.
Wills2 said:
When the money involved is so large they will find you more often than not, certainly Madoff had nowhere to go really and it was the FC that revealed the situation so happened quickly had that not happened it would have probably only come to light after his death.
As for the train robbers life isn't a movie and nothing happens in a vacuum, the law has a pretty long arm when it wants to, having said that most of the brinks mat gold was never found so somebody had a pay day
Agree that life isn't a movie and the law has a long arm, but to not even try to assemble some kind of getaway seems bonkers? They knew they were trying steal a split of £10m each for the ringleaders (equivalent) and I just naively assume that they would plan for that. There is absolutely no point in stealing that kind of cash if you are unable to spend it whilst simply waiting for the almost inevitable arrest. As for the train robbers life isn't a movie and nothing happens in a vacuum, the law has a pretty long arm when it wants to, having said that most of the brinks mat gold was never found so somebody had a pay day
In a lot of cases it's probably worth just doing the time and then enjoying the fruits of their labour after that.
I know someone who robbed a Post Office. Made about £75k. Can't remember the exact amount of time he served but I can guarantee it was a shorter time than it would have taken him to earn it legitimately and quite nice to come out too to.
I know someone who robbed a Post Office. Made about £75k. Can't remember the exact amount of time he served but I can guarantee it was a shorter time than it would have taken him to earn it legitimately and quite nice to come out too to.
ChocolateFrog said:
In a lot of cases it's probably worth just doing the time and then enjoying the fruits of their labour after that.
I know someone who robbed a Post Office. Made about £75k. Can't remember the exact amount of time he served but I can guarantee it was a shorter time than it would have taken him to earn it legitimately and quite nice to come out too to.
In a decades time that'll equate to about five First Class stamps, and a bag of Scampi 'n' Lemon Nik Naks.I know someone who robbed a Post Office. Made about £75k. Can't remember the exact amount of time he served but I can guarantee it was a shorter time than it would have taken him to earn it legitimately and quite nice to come out too to.
Plus the biro.
Shooter McGavin said:
Not sure if The Great Train Robbers is the best example.
Bruce Reynolds escaped and lived in Mexico, Canada and France for 5 years. He was only captured because he returned to the UK because he had blown his proceeds from the crime.
Ronnie Biggs was detained for 30yrs but escaped after only 13 months, living as a free man in Australia and Brazil for 30 years before returning to the UK only on the grounds of ill health. He hardly sat around waiting to be nicked.
Still a train wreck of a 'plan' IMO (no pun intended!)Bruce Reynolds escaped and lived in Mexico, Canada and France for 5 years. He was only captured because he returned to the UK because he had blown his proceeds from the crime.
Ronnie Biggs was detained for 30yrs but escaped after only 13 months, living as a free man in Australia and Brazil for 30 years before returning to the UK only on the grounds of ill health. He hardly sat around waiting to be nicked.
Bruce Reynolds did spend 5 years on the run, but had almost no plan for it. He spent nearly a year hiding in various flats in London until he could get his hands on a fake passport and arrange his escape. Surely he should have got his fake passport before committing the robbery of the century?
Ronnie Biggs got lucky with his prison escape being successful. There was no plan for it, nor was there a plan for him to flee the country before he was arrested. He got caught and jailed. The fact that he was lived freely for 30 years was down to the luck of his escape. If he hadn't of escaped he would have done his 30 years.
I would give them both a score of 3/10!
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