Have MiL and SIL Crossed a line?
Discussion
The joys of families at Christmas......
Would welcome some level-headed perspectives on this one. Please bear with a somewhat involved back-story.
At the beginning of 2023 our elder daughter, then 15, had some quite severe mental health issues. Depression and anxiety leading to anorexia and self-harming. With a lot of time, effort and 1st rate clinical support, we are through the anorexia and self-harming but depression and anxiety are still (much more manageable) issues. This came after a year or so of low level but quite trying behavioural issues from our younger daughter. Again, we seem to be largely out of the other side of these and, beyond a normal teenage girl's ability to know which of her mother's buttons to press, she's fine.
The issue is that, back in 2023, my wife's mother and sister decided that these issues were as a result of our parenting - particularly my wife's- and told her so. In my MIL's case, she repeatedly turned up at our house and at our eldest daughter's school, ostensibly offering to help but essentially criticising my wife and trying to undermine what we were doing with our daughter (along with the school and health care team). Needless to say we didn't have time to indulge such nonsense and, after she failed to listen to first gentle and tactful and then very clear and unambiguous direction to stop, we had to cut all contact and have our solicitors write to her setting out the legal measures that we would take if she didn't comply. The school (who were hugely supportive) also banned her from their premises.
SIL also wrote my wife multiple, vile, texts, WhatsApp and emails blaming her for the girls' challenges. Knowing the individuals and their speech and writing patterns, it is easy to see that they were at least co-written by MIL. Our solicitors advised that these more than met the bar to secure a non molestation order if we wanted to go down that route. After very careful thought we decided not to.
I have been the liaison with MIL (SIL refuses to engage with either of us) and have made clear that, whilst we will not stop her communicating with our daughters, we have made clear to them as intelligent teenagers that their Granny and Aunt have deeply hurt and upset their mother and that, until an apology and explanation is forthcoming, they won't be an active part of our extended family. We don't pry into the messages that MIL and SIL send them but we have made clear that, if anything makes them feel uncomfortable, they can talk to us or stop contact at any time. Our youngest has stopped contact with her Aunt and occasionally communicates with her grandmother. When we ask her about this she says "they just add nothing to my life". The eldest communicates with them both more often but often mentions feeling stressed and overwhelmed by what they say (things along the lines of "isn't it wicked that your parents won't let me see you")
For calibration, the girls' school and health care teams are aghast at this behavior, believe it to be deeply unhelpful to our family unit and have suggested severing all contact.
Fast forward to yesterday and I get a text out of the blue from MIL saying "Just so you don't accuse me of being underhand, xxx [sil] and I have arranged to meet the girls and take them shopping tomorrow. They are 15 and 17 now and you can't stop them doing what they want. Hope you had a good Christmas xxx"
I showed my wife who was understandably livid and we spoke to our daughters, asking whether SIL/MIL had been in touch. They basically said that both had been messaging them suggesting they all meet up and asking them not to tell us. Youngest is very clear that she's ignored the messages and has no intention of going. Elder says she is very stressed by the situation and feels torn between not wanting to go and not wanting to offend them. We agreed that they wouldn't go and I communicated this to MIL.
I'm inclined to think that this crosses a line and we should respond to this legally but, another pat of me thinks that would be heavy-handed and make any reconciliation in future all the harder.
Would welcome the wisdom of crowds on this one....
Would welcome some level-headed perspectives on this one. Please bear with a somewhat involved back-story.
At the beginning of 2023 our elder daughter, then 15, had some quite severe mental health issues. Depression and anxiety leading to anorexia and self-harming. With a lot of time, effort and 1st rate clinical support, we are through the anorexia and self-harming but depression and anxiety are still (much more manageable) issues. This came after a year or so of low level but quite trying behavioural issues from our younger daughter. Again, we seem to be largely out of the other side of these and, beyond a normal teenage girl's ability to know which of her mother's buttons to press, she's fine.
The issue is that, back in 2023, my wife's mother and sister decided that these issues were as a result of our parenting - particularly my wife's- and told her so. In my MIL's case, she repeatedly turned up at our house and at our eldest daughter's school, ostensibly offering to help but essentially criticising my wife and trying to undermine what we were doing with our daughter (along with the school and health care team). Needless to say we didn't have time to indulge such nonsense and, after she failed to listen to first gentle and tactful and then very clear and unambiguous direction to stop, we had to cut all contact and have our solicitors write to her setting out the legal measures that we would take if she didn't comply. The school (who were hugely supportive) also banned her from their premises.
SIL also wrote my wife multiple, vile, texts, WhatsApp and emails blaming her for the girls' challenges. Knowing the individuals and their speech and writing patterns, it is easy to see that they were at least co-written by MIL. Our solicitors advised that these more than met the bar to secure a non molestation order if we wanted to go down that route. After very careful thought we decided not to.
I have been the liaison with MIL (SIL refuses to engage with either of us) and have made clear that, whilst we will not stop her communicating with our daughters, we have made clear to them as intelligent teenagers that their Granny and Aunt have deeply hurt and upset their mother and that, until an apology and explanation is forthcoming, they won't be an active part of our extended family. We don't pry into the messages that MIL and SIL send them but we have made clear that, if anything makes them feel uncomfortable, they can talk to us or stop contact at any time. Our youngest has stopped contact with her Aunt and occasionally communicates with her grandmother. When we ask her about this she says "they just add nothing to my life". The eldest communicates with them both more often but often mentions feeling stressed and overwhelmed by what they say (things along the lines of "isn't it wicked that your parents won't let me see you")
For calibration, the girls' school and health care teams are aghast at this behavior, believe it to be deeply unhelpful to our family unit and have suggested severing all contact.
Fast forward to yesterday and I get a text out of the blue from MIL saying "Just so you don't accuse me of being underhand, xxx [sil] and I have arranged to meet the girls and take them shopping tomorrow. They are 15 and 17 now and you can't stop them doing what they want. Hope you had a good Christmas xxx"
I showed my wife who was understandably livid and we spoke to our daughters, asking whether SIL/MIL had been in touch. They basically said that both had been messaging them suggesting they all meet up and asking them not to tell us. Youngest is very clear that she's ignored the messages and has no intention of going. Elder says she is very stressed by the situation and feels torn between not wanting to go and not wanting to offend them. We agreed that they wouldn't go and I communicated this to MIL.
I'm inclined to think that this crosses a line and we should respond to this legally but, another pat of me thinks that would be heavy-handed and make any reconciliation in future all the harder.
Would welcome the wisdom of crowds on this one....
Full legal.
Take this to it's extreme end point assuming non rational, but possible, behaviour from MIL and SIL and, consider if at that moment (whatever it looks like when you imagine it), would you wish you had done so?
The only reason you're holding back is because 'they're family'
Therefore, stop with the emotional view, cut ties formally and stop them from further damage.
That the school, and all professional assistance is on your side (assuming it's exactly as you say...), means this is your course.
Cut em off
Take this to it's extreme end point assuming non rational, but possible, behaviour from MIL and SIL and, consider if at that moment (whatever it looks like when you imagine it), would you wish you had done so?
The only reason you're holding back is because 'they're family'
Therefore, stop with the emotional view, cut ties formally and stop them from further damage.
That the school, and all professional assistance is on your side (assuming it's exactly as you say...), means this is your course.
Cut em off
As above
Multiple lines crossed
Difficult one with the kids as they should be able to see them if they want to but I really don't think there's any harm in you making it clear that you think it's a terrible idea and that they have been very hurtful to you and your wife.
I'd tell them both it's up to them but I wouldn't be facilitating it by offering lifts and spending money
Multiple lines crossed
Difficult one with the kids as they should be able to see them if they want to but I really don't think there's any harm in you making it clear that you think it's a terrible idea and that they have been very hurtful to you and your wife.
I'd tell them both it's up to them but I wouldn't be facilitating it by offering lifts and spending money
I think that if you have legal professionals involved in the relationship with your family - solicitors, etc - then any hope of a reconciliation is pretty much dead.
I feel sorry for the older one, who seems torn.
You can’t stop them contacting your children, but this behaviour needs to be recorded and I would in no uncertain terms tells your MIL & SIL that they are not to encourage your children to lie about their whereabouts under any circumstances. Reinforce this to your children.
I feel sorry for the older one, who seems torn.
You can’t stop them contacting your children, but this behaviour needs to be recorded and I would in no uncertain terms tells your MIL & SIL that they are not to encourage your children to lie about their whereabouts under any circumstances. Reinforce this to your children.
Many lines have been crossed, I would recommend the non-molestation order if you can and cut all ties / block on all devices incl children. P1ss poor behaviour by MiL / SiL and smacks of control issues. Your life will be better off without them.
Well done managing all the challenges your daughters have presented, it isn't easy!
Well done managing all the challenges your daughters have presented, it isn't easy!
Forget legal action and just cut all contact, tell your children you’re doing this and why you are doing this. Make it clear to your children they are free to still speak to them as much as they like. Your children maybe feel like they are stuck between the 2 off you, but do not want to upset anyone. Your children are old enough to block them if they decide to themselves.
Good luck it’s a horrible situation for your family
Good luck it’s a horrible situation for your family
Send your MiL and SiL a copy of Janet Treasure's book on caring for loved ones with AN. Strongly suggest that they read it, and that the conclusion is that AN is "just" something that's going to happen anyway in certain people, the only question is when. There is no fault to be attached to you and your wife, apart from the fact that your combined genes produced a specific individual with certain innate traits (e.g. if the Milkman had turned out to be her father, you probably wouldn't have this problem even if everything else about her upbringing had been identical)
If they don't have the level of emotional intelligence to grasp this concept then ditch them completely. 100%. How hard you try to help them understand this is up to you - but if they can't or won't understand it, then there's zero point carrying on with them in your lives.
If they don't have the level of emotional intelligence to grasp this concept then ditch them completely. 100%. How hard you try to help them understand this is up to you - but if they can't or won't understand it, then there's zero point carrying on with them in your lives.
768 said:
I'd probably first talk to the kids about why it's not ok and suggest you think it's time to block the numbers on their phones and that you'll support them with that.
This won't work as MIL/SIL will just change numbers.Changing kids phone numbers on the other hand, would work in this respect.
I think you already know the answer, so many lines crossed. It's got to be full legal and if that doesn't stop it sad to say get it on record with the authorities.
I'd also give and fund the kids new phones with new numbers. Maybe already the case, it's not a bribe more clearly signalling a severing of the link.
This must be awful for you all, particularly your wife as it's her blood family if have understood correctly. Crumbs, feel for you, been more than patient.
I'd also give and fund the kids new phones with new numbers. Maybe already the case, it's not a bribe more clearly signalling a severing of the link.
This must be awful for you all, particularly your wife as it's her blood family if have understood correctly. Crumbs, feel for you, been more than patient.
Multiple lines crossed, and I also agree that going full legal with obtaining a non-molestation order is the most logical option at this stage. However, I disagree with telling the girls they're free to keep in contact with their aunt and grandmother. It's clear that they're hugely stressed by that, and from your description, I suspect that they don't want contact either, but they will need you to be their parent at this time, and spread your protective wings around them. Yes, they're old enough to understand some of the issues, but they're still not mature adults with full life experience. Explain to them why it's a bad idea to keep in contact with aunt and grandmother, tell them how much you love them, check with them if they also agree to be part of the non-molestation order, at which point I suspect they'll jump at the chance. Then you can go ahead and obtain it to protect all of you.
QuickQuack said:
Multiple lines crossed, and I also agree that going full legal with obtaining a non-molestation order is the most logical option at this stage. However, I disagree with telling the girls they're free to keep in contact with their aunt and grandmother. It's clear that they're hugely stressed by that, and from your description, I suspect that they don't want contact either, but they will need you to be their parent at this time, and spread your protective wings around them. Yes, they're old enough to understand some of the issues, but they're still not mature adults with full life experience. Explain to them why it's a bad idea to keep in contact with aunt and grandmother, tell them how much you love them, check with them if they also agree to be part of the non-molestation order, at which point I suspect they'll jump at the chance. Then you can go ahead and obtain it to protect all of you.
Another idea is to make it time limited (say a year), so positioned as a pause in the relationship rather than a hard close? That way the girls get some assurance of space but also know they can reconnect if behaviours improve.You might've have already read this book, but it really helped me to start to deal with the issues caused by my own toxic stepfather which were amplified due to the death of my father when I was 7.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/toxic-parents/sus...
If you haven't, it's a good read to understand the behaviour of toxic parents and family members.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/toxic-parents/sus...
If you haven't, it's a good read to understand the behaviour of toxic parents and family members.
vaud said:
Another idea is to make it time limited (say a year), so positioned as a pause in the relationship rather than a hard close? That way the girls get some assurance of space but also know they can reconnect if behaviours improve.
I don't know much about non-molestation orders, but I guess that could be an option. Family legal advice is essential. 98elise said:
Cease all contact and cut them out of your and your childrens life's. If your kids have MH problems then SIL and MIL are going to make that worse.
When your kids are legally adults it's up to them if they want to maintain contact.
They are near enough adults now. Allow them to cut ties themselves if they wish to do so. When your kids are legally adults it's up to them if they want to maintain contact.
They may like spending time with their gran and auntie, but are scared of hurting their parents feelings.
Trying to force the children into doing something just puts them under more pressure and stress.
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