Should discretionary tips be outlawed?
Poll: Should discretionary tips be outlawed?
Total Members Polled: 150
Discussion
Discretionary tips have increased massively in the past two decades. In most places the so-called discretionary tip is just added automatically to the bill. I’ve not recently tried to have it removed but no doubt it would be a fuss and embarrassing (which is presumably why so many people don’t bother). It works particularly well for restaurants in a country like the UK where people would rather put up with something they don’t like than be seen to make a fuss.
Personally I would ban all such discretionary tips. People should be free to make a decision to tip or not tip without indirect pressure to do so.
Imposing tips for large parties also seems like a cheek on the part of restaurants - almost like they are punishing you for bringing lots of business their way.
Personally I would ban all such discretionary tips. People should be free to make a decision to tip or not tip without indirect pressure to do so.
Imposing tips for large parties also seems like a cheek on the part of restaurants - almost like they are punishing you for bringing lots of business their way.
Just to be clear, we are talking about auto added service charges, are we?
Not the tips that we have discretion over giving, but the charges added by the provider.
If you ban them, will they not just work it into the price? Having them mean that I don't have to leave a tip anymore, it's already done for me. So it is more convenient.
So no, I probably wouldn't ban them.
Not the tips that we have discretion over giving, but the charges added by the provider.
If you ban them, will they not just work it into the price? Having them mean that I don't have to leave a tip anymore, it's already done for me. So it is more convenient.
So no, I probably wouldn't ban them.
Some restaurants and their douche owners will just try a different way:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/04/ch...
Instead of outlawing it, I propose a system where any restaurant owner who has an establishment that adds on a service charge should be required by law to identifying themselves as a service charge establishment owner and thus be required to pay 12.5% on everything. Newspaper - add 12.5%, ice cream - add 12.5%
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/04/ch...
Instead of outlawing it, I propose a system where any restaurant owner who has an establishment that adds on a service charge should be required by law to identifying themselves as a service charge establishment owner and thus be required to pay 12.5% on everything. Newspaper - add 12.5%, ice cream - add 12.5%
Yes.
Discretionary tips were introduced by chain restaurants and those with investor backing as a means to boost turnover figures to appease investors (similar to supermarkets keen to offer cash back on card purchases). It's since been absorbed by smaller establishments.
I dislike the assumption being made for me that the service and experience was good and that the value of that was also made for me.
You can of course ask for it to be removed and tip according to your own view but that is not the point. The point is that the restaurant owners have assumed something that they shouldn't have. If they feel their staff are worth 7.5% more than they get paid, then pay them that extra and let the customer decide what extra to apply.
Discretionary tips were introduced by chain restaurants and those with investor backing as a means to boost turnover figures to appease investors (similar to supermarkets keen to offer cash back on card purchases). It's since been absorbed by smaller establishments.
I dislike the assumption being made for me that the service and experience was good and that the value of that was also made for me.
You can of course ask for it to be removed and tip according to your own view but that is not the point. The point is that the restaurant owners have assumed something that they shouldn't have. If they feel their staff are worth 7.5% more than they get paid, then pay them that extra and let the customer decide what extra to apply.
I don’t get the service charge included for party’s over say 8 people or so. Surely the meals are costed and surely it’s making the restaurant more money by having more people in. I can’t imagine it’s making more work than if there was 2 tables of 4. It’s just blatant ripping off. Hidden costs as such. So rather than £20 for a meal it’s £24 in reality. But like airlines advertising cheap prices then as you go along there’s added extras.
MikeM6 said:
Just to be clear, we are talking about auto added service charges, are we?
Not the tips that we have discretion over giving, but the charges added by the provider.
If you ban them, will they not just work it into the price? Having them mean that I don't have to leave a tip anymore, it's already done for me. So it is more convenient.
So no, I probably wouldn't ban them.
Yes the ones that are automatically added in small print as part of the bill but stated to be “discretionary”. Not the tips that we have discretion over giving, but the charges added by the provider.
If you ban them, will they not just work it into the price? Having them mean that I don't have to leave a tip anymore, it's already done for me. So it is more convenient.
So no, I probably wouldn't ban them.
Yes they could add it to their prices but I wonder whether increasing the prices on the menu (rather than hiding it at the end of the bill) would impact what people do (or don’t) order.
Sunday Drive said:
richhead said:
Im not a fan of the whole tipping thing anyway, i never get tips in my job, i am expected to do a good job and i get paid for that. Why should restaurant staff be any different.
Because they are likely to be on a low wage. Seems to be a British thing as this must the the hundredth thread on tipping over the years
Fair enough ,each country has its own traditions, and I am comfortable to go with the local habits. I do not tip where is is not the norm but I don't moan where it is. In the US British people seem to have huge outrage about tipping while it is just part of the income of the servers for instance. I do not tip tax drivers in Singapore, but if I do not tip Uber drivers in Canada I will find my rating dropping and there will be much longer delays in getting a car.
I lived in London for a couple of years and am well aware of not tipping for a pint in a pub for example; I know that in Germany you sort it out in advance and typically leave 10% in cash even if you use a card. Everywhere is different.
Whatever the locals do, I do.
Fair enough ,each country has its own traditions, and I am comfortable to go with the local habits. I do not tip where is is not the norm but I don't moan where it is. In the US British people seem to have huge outrage about tipping while it is just part of the income of the servers for instance. I do not tip tax drivers in Singapore, but if I do not tip Uber drivers in Canada I will find my rating dropping and there will be much longer delays in getting a car.
I lived in London for a couple of years and am well aware of not tipping for a pint in a pub for example; I know that in Germany you sort it out in advance and typically leave 10% in cash even if you use a card. Everywhere is different.
Whatever the locals do, I do.
RDMcG said:
Seems to be a British thing as this must the the hundredth thread on tipping over the years
Fair enough ,each country has its own traditions, and I am comfortable to go with the local habits. I do not tip where is is not the norm but I don't moan where it is. In the US British people seem to have huge outrage about tipping while it is just part of the income of the servers for instance. I do not tip tax drivers in Singapore, but if I do not tip Uber drivers in Canada I will find my rating dropping and there will be much longer delays in getting a car.
I lived in London for a couple of years and am well aware of not tipping for a pint in a pub for example; I know that in Germany you sort it out in advance and typically leave 10% in cash even if you use a card. Everywhere is different.
Whatever the locals do, I do.
The point is that it wasn’t a British thing. Tipping used to be at the customer’s discretion and never added to a bill. Fair enough ,each country has its own traditions, and I am comfortable to go with the local habits. I do not tip where is is not the norm but I don't moan where it is. In the US British people seem to have huge outrage about tipping while it is just part of the income of the servers for instance. I do not tip tax drivers in Singapore, but if I do not tip Uber drivers in Canada I will find my rating dropping and there will be much longer delays in getting a car.
I lived in London for a couple of years and am well aware of not tipping for a pint in a pub for example; I know that in Germany you sort it out in advance and typically leave 10% in cash even if you use a card. Everywhere is different.
Whatever the locals do, I do.
In the UK, good service gets a tip from me. If no value added then no tip.
At European holiday resorts I tip in advance to housekeeping, bar staff etc as that tends to get you slightly favourable service during your stay.
Different cultures, different rules. But I don't want the UK going the same way as the US.
At European holiday resorts I tip in advance to housekeeping, bar staff etc as that tends to get you slightly favourable service during your stay.
Different cultures, different rules. But I don't want the UK going the same way as the US.
Sunday Drive said:
richhead said:
Im not a fan of the whole tipping thing anyway, i never get tips in my job, i am expected to do a good job and i get paid for that. Why should restaurant staff be any different.
Because they are likely to be on a low wage. My wife is the MD of a company with 6 bars and restaurants and they had to implement discretionary service charge in order to attract staff as other establishments had already done it. The staff get 100% of the tips (it is shared across all the staff including the chefs) under the TRONC system.
I appreciate why they implemented the change but I’m dead against it as it disincentives the staff to give good service as very few people ask for it to be removed, and it makes eating out more expensive which means fewer price sensitive customers for an industry all reading struggling with increased costs. It also means my wife has waiting staff walking out with the equivalent of £40k+ pa irrespective of how well they perform, which is absurd given the nature of the job.
Geffg said:
I don’t get the service charge included for party’s over say 8 people or so. Surely the meals are costed and surely it’s making the restaurant more money by having more people in. I can’t imagine it’s making more work than if there was 2 tables of 4. It’s just blatant ripping off. Hidden costs as such. So rather than £20 for a meal it’s £24 in reality. But like airlines advertising cheap prices then as you go along there’s added extras.
It's because the larger the party, the smaller the tip (in general) that gets left as a percentage of the total bill.snuffy said:
It's because the larger the party, the smaller the tip (in general) that gets left as a percentage of the total bill.
In general?Most people in the UK go by the 10% rule. 2 tables of 4 spending £100 each would result in the same tip as a table of 8 spending £200.
Are you saying larger parties leave less of a tip when it's discretionary? Genuine question as I have no idea.
xx99xx said:
snuffy said:
It's because the larger the party, the smaller the tip (in general) that gets left as a percentage of the total bill.
In general?Most people in the UK go by the 10% rule. 2 tables of 4 spending £100 each would result in the same tip as a table of 8 spending £200.
Are you saying larger parties leave less of a tip when it's discretionary? Genuine question as I have no idea.
Say £50/head and 10%.
A table of 2, £100, so they will leave 10%, i.e. £10.
A table of 8, £400, so they will leave 10%, i.e. £40. Only, they will not. What happens is that some people in the party will always complain that £40 is too much (because all they see is the absolute figure,) so the tip gets reduced to say £20, i.e. 5%.
And I've seen it happen myself when I've been out in a large group; "How much? £40 - that's far too much, no, give the £20, that's more than enough".
snuffy said:
xx99xx said:
snuffy said:
It's because the larger the party, the smaller the tip (in general) that gets left as a percentage of the total bill.
In general?Most people in the UK go by the 10% rule. 2 tables of 4 spending £100 each would result in the same tip as a table of 8 spending £200.
Are you saying larger parties leave less of a tip when it's discretionary? Genuine question as I have no idea.
Say £50/head and 10%.
A table of 2, £100, so they will leave 10%, i.e. £10.
A table of 8, £400, so they will leave 10%, i.e. £40. Only, they will not. What happens is that some people in the party will always complain that £40 is too much (because all they see is the absolute figure,) so the tip gets reduced to say £20, i.e. 5%.
And I've seen it happen myself when I've been out in a large group; "How much? £40 - that's far too much, no, give the £20, that's more than enough".
Big groups can also be on expense accounts and if you can reclaim the tips them you can be generous (I worked for a US company long term and no-one queried tips on my expense claims).
Geffg said:
I don’t get the service charge included for party’s over say 8 people or so. Surely the meals are costed and surely it’s making the restaurant more money by having more people in. I can’t imagine it’s making more work than if there was 2 tables of 4. It’s just blatant ripping off. Hidden costs as such. So rather than £20 for a meal it’s £24 in reality. But like airlines advertising cheap prices then as you go along there’s added extras.
Given that restaurant tipping is a fact of eating out….I’ve spoken to the staff at my (excellent) local about this large group tip issue….some or on occasion ALL of these happen in the same group.
The large groups tend to be a one off event, where nobody will be frequenting / revisiting.
Large groups turning up in dribs and drabs, not ready to order at the same time, requiring more staff.
Loud noise they create, often meaning tables re-arranged to get them as far away as possible from normal tables and poor space maximisation.
(In this county pub) There will often be children to round up, keep tabs on, as they are allowed to roam when board.
Monitoring when they start to drift out in groups to use facilities / smoke, as sometimes they clear off, leaving others who are reluctant to cover the shortfall.
Bill confusion and extended discussions about who had what. The total after collecting the individuals money is very often less than the actual bill!
Emboldened by being in a group and some refusing to tip at all, the others sometimes fall into line with the loudest voice and won’t either.
When the bill comes to over £500, all of a sudden, people don’t want to leave a % of the total, even though they’ve been 3 x the work as a few tables of couples.
After all of this, large groups don’t leave after they’ve eaten. They’ve often with people they don’t see often and stay chatting for ages, without spending much, if anything more.
When they leave, the place can be like a bomb has hit it.
They often get lower tips from other clientele, due to being seated next to rowdy groups with children / swearing / in and out of the doors constantly.
That’s why the automatic 12.5% for large groups.
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