Why are Americans so religious?

[MBBlat]

hidetheelephants said:

M5-911 said:

I think secular states have proven you wrong.

There aren't any. I'll make an assumption and guess you're going to cite the USSR, China, etc. In both cases the cult of personality largely or entirely replaced the cult of religion, arguably they are the same thing anyway.

How about France, who are very aggressively secular? Germany? Canada?

In fact the only European states that I can think of where the church wields any sort of real power are Ireland and Poland, and in the former it’s rapidly declining.

[hidetheelephants]

MBBlat said:

How about France, who are very aggressively secular? Germany? Canada?

In fact the only European states that I can think of where the church wields any sort of real power are Ireland and Poland, and in the former it’s rapidly declining.

France is more catholic than the pope. It's not a theocracy but you might get pushback suggesting a public holiday for John Knox or Martin Luther.

[732NM]

MBBlat said:

How about France, who are very aggressively secular? Germany? Canada?

In fact the only European states that I can think of where the church wields any sort of real power are Ireland and Poland, and in the former it’s rapidly declining.

The UK has a state religion with religious leaders in a position of power in the house of Lords. The head of state takes his/her power from God according to them, that was made blatantly clear during chucks coronation.

This arrangement is years behind the UK population, who are rejecting religion.

[rodericb]

732NM said:

This arrangement is years behind the UK population, who are rejecting religion.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_England

[hidetheelephants]

I suspect there are a lot of secular religionists lurking in that chart, people who identify as whatever religion but wear the observances lightly or not at all. My mother would say she is Church of Scotland but has not attended church for many years.

[jdw100]

rodericb said:

732NM said:

This arrangement is years behind the UK population, who are rejecting religion.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_England

These surveys are to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Many British people will tick COE. Yet not be church attending or believing christians.

5% or so of COE vicars don’t believe in god.

I know quite a few Muslims (uk and in Indonesia (a secular country with Muslim majority
)) that would tick Muslim but I probably know more about the religion than they do. They’ll do Ramadan etc in the same way UK ‘Christians’ might go to a Christmas event.

Both are cultural Muslims or Christians - will tick the box but not be strong believers, understand much of the religion or follow any of the actual tenets.

The numbers of actual firm believers in much less. The number who have studied their religion even less. The number conducting comparative studies and making an educated decision as to which religion to follow will be <5%

You have people, like my wife, who is neither poorly educated or thick, in contradiction to points made by some ignorant people above.

She is a Christian because her family is Christian. Goes to the occasional church event, ask her any of the history of the bible and it’s very vague. Only knows the nice bits. In a country that recognises 6 religions.

The reasons for people believing are very very complex and not ‘just thick’. Geography, country, state, politics, education, social adherence, family….etc…etc.

Many Americans are brought up in a pre-suppositional environment; it’s not a case of if a god exists its more which version your family have already chosen.

Plus because of the religious history of USA (founded on secular principles despite what the Evangelicals argue) it’s easy to move to a church that happens to mesh with your world view (as per the Emo Philip’s joke back a few pages).

Whereas in UK you might find that the religions on offer don’t suit you on certain points - you might just quit going. In the USA you are almost certain to find a church that does fit for your world view. So you’ll stay in the religion rather than give it up. There is a hell of a lot of choice.

There is no real equivalent in Uk of a church that would be anti-gay, super right wing, trump supporting, separation of races, so if you have those views you’ll probably quit going to your church. In USA you’ll find exactly what you are looking for, where fellow parishioners are 100% aligned.

Note; when god through the Holy Spirit talks to you it’s unlikely it will ever deliver a message the opposite of your belief system. Hence: god told me to vote Trump, never: well bugger me I had a message that I should change my vote to Biden I was not expecting that!

Edited by jdw100 on Monday 24th June 02:53

[Steve H]

jdw100 said:

The number conducting comparative studies and making an educated decision as to which religion to follow will be <5%

Edited by jdw100 on Monday 24th June 02:53

I would have thought the number making an educated choice of religion based on evidence based studies would be precisely 0%.

[PinkHouse]

Alickadoo said:

I think it has a lot to do with intelligence and common sense.

Says the man living in a country with it's economy and industry in decline while also typing on a device and operating system made by an American company

[PinkHouse]

CLK-GTR said:

TheJimi said:

European football fans want a word.

As do Rangers and Celtic fans.

Which football team one supports is a huge part of many people's identity in Europe and the UK.

Not really, not like it used to be. And the firm types that remain what do they all have in common? Thick as mince.

Edited by CLK-GTR on Sunday 23 June 13:34

You also seem to forget the weekly NHS worship sessions that took place in the not too distant past, seemed very religious to me

[mikey_b]

jdw100 said:

These surveys are to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Many British people will tick COE. Yet not be church attending or believing christians.

5% or so of COE vicars don’t believe in god.

This is I can believe. The vicar at our local church, lovely fella (ex-marine so definitely more a down to earth type than some of them) and a big bear of a man who I loosely know in a more personal capacity than just as 'vicar', has made comments on those lines previously. He was joking about how he was on holiday in Greece watching some old-school orthodox religion carry out some parade or other with weird relics on display and all sorts - proper medieval style event - and said 'if God exists, I can just imagine him looking down with a puzzled expression and saying "what on earth? I never told you to do that!!"' Those first three words struck me as a bit odd, for a vicar.

[CammyN]

mikey_b said:

jdw100 said:

These surveys are to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Many British people will tick COE. Yet not be church attending or believing christians.

5% or so of COE vicars don’t believe in god.

This is I can believe. The vicar at our local church, lovely fella (ex-marine so definitely more a down to earth type than some of them) and a big bear of a man who I loosely know in a more personal capacity than just as 'vicar', has made comments on those lines previously. He was joking about how he was on holiday in Greece watching some old-school orthodox religion carry out some parade or other with weird relics on display and all sorts - proper medieval style event - and said 'if God exists, I can just imagine him looking down with a puzzled expression and saying "what on earth? I never told you to do that!!"' Those first three words struck me as a bit odd, for a vicar.

Interesting point and the vicar sounds like a good man.

[Drawweight]

I went to a psychologist years ago who had been a vicar before his change in career.

Even when he was involved in his religion he said he never actually believed but the principles were enough for him to pass them on to his parishioners.

An extremely interesting and intelligent man. He was a great believer in the Enneagram. (Which is another debatable subject:

[732NM]

PinkHouse said:

Says the man living in a country with it's economy and industry in decline while also typing on a device and operating system made by an American company

You are expressing this daft opinion using a system invented by a Brit.

[MikeM6]

M5-911 said:

732NM said:

M5-911 said:

I think secular states have proven you wrong.

Most of the world is secular, including the USA.

Exactly, you cut out the so called cancer to replace it with something as incurable... Secularism.

Well obviously you DO want secularism, you don't replace cancer with a different cancer, so freedom of and from religion should go hand in hand. That's fairly self evident.

However, everyone should have a sense of purpose and meaning, ideally created by themselves, but I'm not convinced many have this, or at least a healthy purpose. Religion has been used as a proxy for this, giving meaning instead of people needing to find their own. It's often the wrong meaning, but it's something. Take that away without replacing it, you are left with a gap.

All I'm saying is we should think about what fills that gap, otherwise better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

We have already seen some very strong 'new religions' form, such as environmental and identity ideologies, which aggressively position themselves as beyond questioning.

[PinkHouse]

732NM said:

PinkHouse said:

Says the man living in a country with it's economy and industry in decline while also typing on a device and operating system made by an American company

You are expressing this daft opinion using a system invented by a Brit.

Ah so we have to hark back to the 1800s, which is essentially proving my point about decline

[mikey_b]

PinkHouse said:

732NM said:

PinkHouse said:

Says the man living in a country with it's economy and industry in decline while also typing on a device and operating system made by an American company

You are expressing this daft opinion using a system invented by a Brit.

Ah so we have to hark back to the 1800s, which is essentially proving my point about decline

He's talking about the world wide web. Invented by Tim Berners-Lee, a Brit, in 1989.

[ChocolateFrog]

I seem to have hurt a few people's feelings with my comment.

I was thinking specifically of the bible belt where I think lack of education is one of, if not the largest factor.

A little different in the UK although I still question people who don't ask basic questions of the religion they follow.

But take the Salvation Army which is one I know a bit about. I know maybe 8 ministers, all good people I think. Very few are deeply religious though despite what thwy might say. Only 1 would believe in god of you put their feet to the fire. I've seen some of the teaching material from William Booth College. It's basically an indoctrination centre. It takes very normal people and attempts to inject more god believing. I've had chats with a few of them and you can see the consternation written on their faces, I know they don't believe it but they do it because its a decent life.

It offers a very comfortable and easy life in a paid for house with a reasonable income, particularly if you're a couple, so obviously they nearly all get married. It's social and they get to help people which I'm not denying they do. You can get away with working a lot or a little and while you don't get a say exactly where you move to there's lots of opportunity to travel of the collection plate dime.

It's just a shame they can't do all the good stuff without pretending it's about a God.

[rodericb]

CammyN said:

mikey_b said:

jdw100 said:

These surveys are to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Many British people will tick COE. Yet not be church attending or believing christians.

5% or so of COE vicars don’t believe in god.

This is I can believe. The vicar at our local church, lovely fella (ex-marine so definitely more a down to earth type than some of them) and a big bear of a man who I loosely know in a more personal capacity than just as 'vicar', has made comments on those lines previously. He was joking about how he was on holiday in Greece watching some old-school orthodox religion carry out some parade or other with weird relics on display and all sorts - proper medieval style event - and said 'if God exists, I can just imagine him looking down with a puzzled expression and saying "what on earth? I never told you to do that!!"' Those first three words struck me as a bit odd, for a vicar.

Interesting point and the vicar sounds like a good man.

He'll have even more where that came from - pop down to the church for a spot of tea some time! God moves in mysterious ways you know....


Now, a person who promotes the work of god or whatever it is and who doesn't personally believe it? Are they guiding the misguided, taking the mickey from a bunch of suckers or what?

[732NM]

PinkHouse said:

Ah so we have to hark back to the 1800s, which is essentially proving my point about decline

I don't recall the Internet being used in the 1800's

The most significant invention in my lifetime came much later than that.

[Zetec-S]

jdw100 said:

There is no real equivalent in Uk of a church that would be anti-gay, super right wing, trump supporting, separation of races, so if you have those views you’ll probably quit going to your church. In USA you’ll find exactly what you are looking for, where fellow parishioners are 100% aligned.

Not quite, and definitely not anywhere near the "mainstream", but there are some churches in the UK which will be far more sympathetic to those sorts of viewpoints, albeit they hide it a little better.