Private schools, times a changing?

[otolith]

TownIdiot said:

The top universities do use measures that favour certain state schools and pupils.

They attempt to evaluate the candidates allowing for the opportunities they've had. Someone from a sthole comp is probably smarter and more self motivated than someone who gets the same grades with the benefit of an outstanding education.

[Elysium]

Interesting article suggesting Labours plans may be unlawful and that they have previously had legal opinion on this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/labour-priva...

It has always struck me as grossly unfair that they want to charge VAT on private school fees, when Academies, which are essentially owned under the same charitable trust structure, but state funded, will remain exempt.

[Ken_Code]

Louis Balfour said:

Yes, I do have a different idea of fairness from you.

There are a lot of children in independent schools because state school has failed them. The best universities are denying them places because they are prioritising state school kids. That isn't fair, to my mind.

They aren’t, they are taking into account the fact that on matched grades the state school applicant is on average a better student and more intelligent.

This is shown by the outperformance of state school pupils at universities when a-level grades are matched.

[WindyCommon]

okgo said:

Will have to stop people shopping at farm shops and Waitrose at this rate. Bloody families buying good food and giving their kids an advantage.

Not to mention motivated parents supporting their kids out-of-school sports/music/hobbies. Clearly just another way of giving their kids an unfair developmental advantage over those left in front of screens all day

Opportunities in tertiary education (in fact in life!) must be allocated ONLY on the basis of hereditary/innate characteristics. Perhaps embryos could be tested for raw intelligence immediately upon conception (and categorised using a strict caste system) to ensure that parents aren’t able to tamper with the natural order…? Oh, hang on a moment…

[z4RRSchris]

i suspect this will get stuck in the courts, if there is one thing public schools have, its a lot of well funded parents.

[DonkeyApple]

WindyCommon said:

okgo said:

Will have to stop people shopping at farm shops and Waitrose at this rate. Bloody families buying good food and giving their kids an advantage.

Not to mention motivated parents supporting their kids out-of-school sports/music/hobbies. Clearly just another way of giving their kids an unfair developmental advantage over those left in front of screens all day

Opportunities in tertiary education (in fact in life!) must be allocated ONLY on the basis of hereditary/innate characteristics. Perhaps embryos could be tested for raw intelligence immediately upon conception (and categorised using a strict caste system) to ensure that parents aren’t able to tamper with the natural order…? Oh, hang on a moment…

There is no such thing as an unfair advantage when it comes to looking at matter objectively. What it really boils down to is unfortunate disadvantage from the life lottery of a child being born to useless parents or into an environment where the useless parents of other children are in excess and dominate.

It's insulting to the millions of good, competent and hard working parents who have children in the state system to insinuate otherwise.

A smarter society deals with with the true problems at source, directly. A bad society seeks scapegoats and appeasement.

The real question that British society needs to be asking itself is why do we persist in pouring money down the drain paying off the problem minority and not tackling them head on to stop the huge damage they're doing to the millions who can't escape via private schooling.

But then I'm just a crazy liberal who happens to believe that sometimes freedom needs to be ensured by crushing those who rob the majority of their basic human rights due to their antisocial behaviour.

[macron]

Zolvaro said:

okgo said:

Zolvaro said:

Ok bubble boy! Well that new system means will be you have to cough up an extra 20%, so deal with it.

These kids "taking" places from poor little privately educated students, they will have good parents and they will have worked hard, and I welcome the fact they are being given a chance to study an elite university.

Cambridge have dropped it so I’d imagine it’ll be back to what it was in the not too distant.

No it won't, if you read about their plan they have dropped a target they were already exceeding. The state school kids are getting in on merit not filling quotas.

"Merit",

Those who have on here made it clear it's "state til 8" then use private for GCSE's before dropping your kids back into state for 6th form to game the system, may give you a different perspective on that.

[TownIdiot]

macron said:

"Merit",

Those who have on here made it clear it's "state til 8" then use private for GCSE's before dropping your kids back into state for 6th form to game the system, may give you a different perspective on that.

That wouldn't work anyway. It's not just about the school you do your A levels in

And the fact is some state 6th forms have more success than the local private school.
That's certainly the case near us.

[M1AGM]

TownIdiot said:

macron said:

"Merit",

Those who have on here made it clear it's "state til 8" then use private for GCSE's before dropping your kids back into state for 6th form to game the system, may give you a different perspective on that.

That wouldn't work anyway. It's not just about the school you do your A levels in

And the fact is some state 6th forms have more success than the local private school.
That's certainly the case near us.

It does work and goes on all the time, which is why comparing 6th form state/private in university outcomes will not be a true reflection of the reality. I know a number of families that have moved their kids to 6th form at the local school/college to increase their chances, and being succesful, at getting an Oxbridge offer.

[DonkeyApple]

TownIdiot said:

macron said:

"Merit",

Those who have on here made it clear it's "state til 8" then use private for GCSE's before dropping your kids back into state for 6th form to game the system, may give you a different perspective on that.

That wouldn't work anyway. It's not just about the school you do your A levels in

And the fact is some state 6th forms have more success than the local private school.
That's certainly the case near us.

And folks aren't doing that to game any system but to save money. It's 8 years of fees v 13/14.

Likewise the parents saving to allow their children to complete their A levels at a private school.

It's called freedom of choice and both practices are only done by parents who are on the edge of affordability. It's not being done by anyone to 'game' some system and the few that give that reason just haven't the strength of character as adults chattel monkeys and Jones Triathletes to not fall back on an excuse.

What will happen if the fees are pushed up is that many more parents will seek to utilise private via these sorts of solutions to get the numbers to work. They will cross at the 11+ not at 8, skipping prep altogether as people have been with pre-prep and more will seek 6th form finishing as the final educational boost.

But appeasing losers is still the main game in town.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 2nd July 11:02

[markh1973]

Elysium said:

Interesting article suggesting Labours plans may be unlawful and that they have previously had legal opinion on this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/labour-priva...

It has always struck me as grossly unfair that they want to charge VAT on private school fees, when Academies, which are essentially owned under the same charitable trust structure, but state funded, will remain exempt.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/01/26/school_fee_vat_avoidance/

Those who understand such things would disagree that there is any ECHR issue.

[Swervin_Mervin]

markh1973 said:

Elysium said:

Interesting article suggesting Labours plans may be unlawful and that they have previously had legal opinion on this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/labour-priva...

It has always struck me as grossly unfair that they want to charge VAT on private school fees, when Academies, which are essentially owned under the same charitable trust structure, but state funded, will remain exempt.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/01/26/school_fee_vat_avoidance/

Those who understand such things would disagree that there is any ECHR issue.

Would be interesting to see if that last point holds up after the very recent ruling in the Netherlands regarding their wealth tax. AIUI their Supreme Court ruled that the wealth tax went against the EC(onvention)HR. I mean it would depend on a challenge in the UK Supreme Court obvs presumably after a judgement is received from ECHR, and that article suggests a UK legal challenge would fail. But there have been plenty of legal challenges over the application of VAT which have been successful so I can't see how it can be stated with such confidence that it would fail.

But I'm very far from expert on such matters!

[markh1973]

Swervin_Mervin said:

markh1973 said:

Elysium said:

Interesting article suggesting Labours plans may be unlawful and that they have previously had legal opinion on this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/labour-priva...

It has always struck me as grossly unfair that they want to charge VAT on private school fees, when Academies, which are essentially owned under the same charitable trust structure, but state funded, will remain exempt.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/01/26/school_fee_vat_avoidance/

Those who understand such things would disagree that there is any ECHR issue.

Would be interesting to see if that last point holds up after the very recent ruling in the Netherlands regarding their wealth tax. AIUI their Supreme Court ruled that the wealth tax went against the EC(onvention)HR. I mean it would depend on a challenge in the UK Supreme Court obvs presumably after a judgement is received from ECHR, and that article suggests a UK legal challenge would fail. But there have been plenty of legal challenges over the application of VAT which have been successful so I can't see how it can be stated with such confidence that it would fail.

But I'm very far from expert on such matters!

VAT isn't my area, and I don't agree with Dan's interpretations in what is my area, but on the ECHR/VAT issue he isn't holding back.

https://x.com/DanNeidle/status/1806732361838592115

[DonkeyApple]

I doubt anyone can stop the VAT being added but what everyone can do is lobby to ensure every penny taken is reinvested in schools rather than wasted elsewhere.

[z4RRSchris]

i suspect the issue is putting VAT on only fee paying schools that cater to posh people, rather than all "fee" paying schools and education facilities.

[MadCaptainJack]

Ken_Code said:

..on matched grades the state school applicant is on average a better student and more intelligent.

This is shown by the outperformance of state school pupils at universities when a-level grades are matched.

I was going to ask for a source for this but then I remembered that I could just fking Google it myself.

BBC News: State pupils do better at university, study shows

Here is the study they cite. It "looks at the outcomes of the cohort of English-domiciled A-level students who entered full-time degree courses in 2007-08", and examines "the extent to which a student’s background affects their chance of obtaining an upper second or first class degree".

Here are a couple of highlights:

"State school students tend to do better in their degree studies than students from independent schools with the same prior educational attainment"



"There is a relationship between a student’s level of attainment at A-level relative to the average of the school and his or her potential for success at degree level"

[Tom8]

DonkeyApple said:

WindyCommon said:

okgo said:

Will have to stop people shopping at farm shops and Waitrose at this rate. Bloody families buying good food and giving their kids an advantage.

Not to mention motivated parents supporting their kids out-of-school sports/music/hobbies. Clearly just another way of giving their kids an unfair developmental advantage over those left in front of screens all day

Opportunities in tertiary education (in fact in life!) must be allocated ONLY on the basis of hereditary/innate characteristics. Perhaps embryos could be tested for raw intelligence immediately upon conception (and categorised using a strict caste system) to ensure that parents aren’t able to tamper with the natural order…? Oh, hang on a moment…

There is no such thing as an unfair advantage when it comes to looking at matter objectively. What it really boils down to is unfortunate disadvantage from the life lottery of a child being born to useless parents or into an environment where the useless parents of other children are in excess and dominate.

It's insulting to the millions of good, competent and hard working parents who have children in the state system to insinuate otherwise.

A smarter society deals with with the true problems at source, directly. A bad society seeks scapegoats and appeasement.

The real question that British society needs to be asking itself is why do we persist in pouring money down the drain paying off the problem minority and not tackling them head on to stop the huge damage they're doing to the millions who can't escape via private schooling.

But then I'm just a crazy liberal who happens to believe that sometimes freedom needs to be ensured by crushing those who rob the majority of their basic human rights due to their antisocial behaviour.

Utterly agree with this. Yes in society there are minorities who need some form of protection. There are then the others you allude to who need to be treated as problems not "vulnerable". Too many in society who are undeserving who are given a free pass just because they don't want o deal with them.

[Talksteer]

z4RRSchris said:

i suspect this will get stuck in the courts, if there is one thing public schools have, its a lot of well funded parents.

No it won't, courts can only hold up on the basis of changes made improperly via secondary legislation (ministerial powers). The government have a massive majority and can change the law to whatever it wants to enable this if they need to, you might also notice that the government will be lead by a former senior lawyer.

The reason stuff gets held up the courts is because the last government didn't want to have arguments in parliament and change primary legislation. They only time it did was to enable something "batst crazy".

[macron]

TownIdiot said:

That wouldn't work anyway.

M1AGM said:

It does work and goes on all the time

[WindyCommon]

In truth it’s an interesting battle-line to have drawn, more likely motivated by internal labour-party politics than by any genuine policy objective. It conflates independent schooling with unearned privilege, when the reality is that many parents choose to work extra-hard precisely to pay school fees whilst also paying their taxes. I continue to be surprised that the conservatives haven’t tried to attack it as a “levelling-down” policy, for that is precisely what it is.

It is self-evidently a totemic/flagship/symbolic policy for many in the parliamentary Labour Party. Sadly I suspect it is what Keir Starmer’s government will be remembered for.