Private schools, times a changing?

[TownIdiot]

Zolvaro said:

I would argue that figures based on A-Levels alone do not adequately reflect the difference, you have to consider school as a whole not just the last 2 years, which puts it over 5 times more likely. The advantages\disadvantages are already showing by the age of 16.

Based upon the current figures if 2 kids start school today, one in a private school, one in a state school, the privately educated kid is over 5 times more likely to get into Oxford. That's the reality.

You'd have to know how many go from state secondary to private 6th form to be definitive

I am not disagreeing with the thrust of your argument, I was just pointing out that the weighting changes at 6th form.

[Mr Penguin]

Zolvaro said:

I've done the maths, I've been generous and allowed for the fact that 12.2% of pupils who do A-Levels are from private schools.

https://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...

0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford

0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford

So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford

Private schools take the top x% of pupils so just from being selective they will have a higher percentage go to Oxbridge (so you need to restrict to only the pupils who actually get the grades).
Private schools are more likely to train pupils to do the interviews - state schools should do the same. Scrapping private schools or pushing them into the state sector won't change this because they will just hire private tutors.
Private school parents are likely to value education highly and encourage their children in other ways like reading at home than parents who don't. Got to make the most of that extra spending.

To illustrate the first point - assume that the top 10% go to Oxbridge and the private schools only take the top 50% but take half from that bracket but that private school offers no advantage and there are no other associated things like better diet, parents who buy books at home etc.

Of 100 children
25 will go to private school, 75 to state school
5 private school pupils will go to Oxbridge, 5 state school pupils will go to Oxbridge
1 in 5 private school pupils go to Oxbridge but 1 in 15 state school pupils will.

[Zolvaro]

Mr Penguin said:

Zolvaro said:

I've done the maths, I've been generous and allowed for the fact that 12.2% of pupils who do A-Levels are from private schools.

https://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...

0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford

0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford

So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford

Private schools take the top x% of pupils so just from being selective they will have a higher percentage go to Oxbridge (so you need to restrict to only the pupils who actually get the grades).
Private schools are more likely to train pupils to do the interviews - state schools should do the same. Scrapping private schools or pushing them into the state sector won't change this because they will just hire private tutors.
Private school parents are likely to value education highly and encourage their children in other ways like reading at home than parents who don't. Got to make the most of that extra spending.

To illustrate the first point - assume that the top 10% go to Oxbridge and the private schools only take the top 50% but take half from that bracket but that private school offers no advantage and there are no other associated things like better diet, parents who buy books at home etc.

Of 100 children
25 will go to private school, 75 to state school
5 private school pupils will go to Oxbridge, 5 state school pupils will go to Oxbridge
1 in 5 private school pupils go to Oxbridge but 1 in 15 state school pupils will.

I expect a lot more privately educated kids to go to Oxbridge, but we had somebody earlier on the thread claiming that privately educated kids are actually discrimated against!

[DonkeyApple]

Mr Penguin said:

Private schools take the top x% of pupils so just from being selective they will have a higher percentage go to Oxbridge (so you need to restrict to only the pupils who actually get the grades).
Private schools are more likely to train pupils to do the interviews - state schools should do the same. Scrapping private schools or pushing them into the state sector won't change this because they will just hire private tutors.
Private school parents are likely to value education highly and encourage their children in other ways like reading at home than parents who don't. Got to make the most of that extra spending.

To illustrate the first point - assume that the top 10% go to Oxbridge and the private schools only take the top 50% but take half from that bracket but that private school offers no advantage and there are no other associated things like better diet, parents who buy books at home etc.

Of 100 children
25 will go to private school, 75 to state school
5 private school pupils will go to Oxbridge, 5 state school pupils will go to Oxbridge
1 in 5 private school pupils go to Oxbridge but 1 in 15 state school pupils will.

A universities will just import even more overseas customers before dropping standards to find more domestic ones. Further compounding the problem of the U.K. failing to educate its own children sufficiently while educating the overseas children to out compete them.

What's really needed is a massive growth program in ultra cheap private schooling, schools that just focus on core education and getting as many pupils as possible the best grades to hit uni or the workforce with so they can pay the highest possible amount of taxes in their working life. Or to levy means tested fees on the state system that pours every penny back in to buy the best teachers from around the world, create appropriate studying environments and directly attack the minority of adults ruining every child's prospects not just their own. The only diversion of funds would be to police the catchment areas to again specifically target that loser minority that retards the millions of great children and good parents struggling to do the best for their children.

[TownIdiot]

Zolvaro said:

I expect a lot more privately educated kids to go to Oxbridge, but we had somebody earlier on the thread claiming that privately educated kids are actually discrimated against!

The top universities do use measures that favour certain state schools and pupils.

[Mr Penguin]

Zolvaro said:

I expect a lot more privately educated kids to go to Oxbridge, but we had somebody earlier on the thread claiming that privately educated kids are actually discrimated against!

That may still be true.

[okgo]

Will have to stop people shopping at farm shops and Waitrose at this rate. Bloody families buying good food and giving their kids an advantage.

[Zolvaro]

TownIdiot said:

Zolvaro said:

I expect a lot more privately educated kids to go to Oxbridge, but we had somebody earlier on the thread claiming that privately educated kids are actually discrimated against!

The top universities do use measures that favour certain state schools and pupils.

These aren't kids scraping 5 GCSE's together though are they? they are exceptionally high performing kids from poorly performing schools and that should be recognised.

[Zolvaro]

okgo said:

Will have to stop people shopping at farm shops and Waitrose at this rate. Bloody families buying good food and giving their kids an advantage.

It's not about stopping people giving their kids an advantage, it's about giving some kids a chance.

[okgo]

Zolvaro said:

It's not about stopping people giving their kids an advantage, it's about giving some kids a chance.

This isn’t rural India. It’s the U.K. and of one wants to do something then the possibility is there for any and everyone.

You can’t change stty parents and they as referenced above likely going to be the main factor in a kid not making the most of their potential because while the system isn’t perfect, it’s certainly better than most.

[Zolvaro]

okgo said:

Zolvaro said:

It's not about stopping people giving their kids an advantage, it's about giving some kids a chance.

This isn’t rural India. It’s the U.K. and of one wants to do something then the possibility is there for any and everyone.

You can’t change stty parents and they as referenced above likely going to be the main factor in a kid not making the most of their potential because while the system isn’t perfect, it’s certainly better than most.

Ok bubble boy! Well that new system means you will have to cough up an extra 20%, so deal with it.

These kids "taking" places from poor little privately educated students, they will have good parents and they will have worked hard, and I welcome the fact they are being given a chance to study an elite university.

Edited by Zolvaro on Monday 1st July 10:48

[TownIdiot]

Zolvaro said:

These aren't kids scraping 5 GCSE's together though are they? they are exceptionally high performing kids from poorly performing schools and that should be recognised.

I agree totally, although the measures aren't just targeted at poorly performing schools

[okgo]

Zolvaro said:

Ok bubble boy! Well that new system means will be you have to cough up an extra 20%, so deal with it.

These kids "taking" places from poor little privately educated students, they will have good parents and they will have worked hard, and I welcome the fact they are being given a chance to study an elite university.

I don’t care about 20%. I only care for the reasons ‘why’.

Cambridge have dropped it so I’d imagine it’ll be back to what it was in the not too distant.

[Zolvaro]

okgo said:

Zolvaro said:

Ok bubble boy! Well that new system means will be you have to cough up an extra 20%, so deal with it.

These kids "taking" places from poor little privately educated students, they will have good parents and they will have worked hard, and I welcome the fact they are being given a chance to study an elite university.

Cambridge have dropped it so I’d imagine it’ll be back to what it was in the not too distant.

No it won't, if you read about their plan they have dropped a target they were already exceeding. The state school kids are getting in on merit not filling quotas.

[C4ME]

Mr Penguin said:

Zolvaro said:

I expect a lot more privately educated kids to go to Oxbridge, but we had somebody earlier on the thread claiming that privately educated kids are actually discrimated against!

That may still be true.

Universities are (always) evolving their selection policies. For example grade inflation has meant that a lot of private school kids now top out at A or A* so it has become more difficult to identify the students with the highest academic potential. In addition there is more understanding, plus data available to support data science exercises, of how to rank a grade in one school versus another. Also, non academic criteria is important in the selection process plus a recognition that some students will be more coached in these than others.

Averaged figures don't tell you much. Finding the right student is now much more sophisticated than it was in the past. Elite universities are not trying to pick the best achievers at 18, but those with the highest academic potential regardless of education path to date.

Private schools are not the path to the highly academic elite university courses they used to be as the A level grades achieved are now less likely to identify stand out students plus a better understanding how an individual school can impact grades overall. They are a valued ready source of students for other degree courses as overall private school students are more likely to enter university education.

Edited by C4ME on Monday 1st July 11:04

[otolith]

TownIdiot said:

The top universities do use measures that favour certain state schools and pupils.

They attempt to evaluate the candidates allowing for the opportunities they've had. Someone from a sthole comp is probably smarter and more self motivated than someone who gets the same grades with the benefit of an outstanding education.

[Elysium]

Interesting article suggesting Labours plans may be unlawful and that they have previously had legal opinion on this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/labour-priva...

It has always struck me as grossly unfair that they want to charge VAT on private school fees, when Academies, which are essentially owned under the same charitable trust structure, but state funded, will remain exempt.

[Ken_Code]

Louis Balfour said:

Yes, I do have a different idea of fairness from you.

There are a lot of children in independent schools because state school has failed them. The best universities are denying them places because they are prioritising state school kids. That isn't fair, to my mind.

They aren’t, they are taking into account the fact that on matched grades the state school applicant is on average a better student and more intelligent.

This is shown by the outperformance of state school pupils at universities when a-level grades are matched.

[WindyCommon]

okgo said:

Will have to stop people shopping at farm shops and Waitrose at this rate. Bloody families buying good food and giving their kids an advantage.

Not to mention motivated parents supporting their kids out-of-school sports/music/hobbies. Clearly just another way of giving their kids an unfair developmental advantage over those left in front of screens all day

Opportunities in tertiary education (in fact in life!) must be allocated ONLY on the basis of hereditary/innate characteristics. Perhaps embryos could be tested for raw intelligence immediately upon conception (and categorised using a strict caste system) to ensure that parents aren’t able to tamper with the natural order…? Oh, hang on a moment…

[z4RRSchris]

i suspect this will get stuck in the courts, if there is one thing public schools have, its a lot of well funded parents.