Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
TownIdiot said:
Surely extra cash into the bottom 7% will have some impact?
None. It'll just be consumed as all the cash currently is. And don't forget, none of the funds projected to be raised from the 20% VAT are actually destined for the state school system anyway. Of the projected £2bn to be raised a maximum of just £200m has been earmarked and that's for the 6500 teachers who don't exist which have to be found from somewhere before any money is spent. All that will happen to any minor spend increase is that it will merely go on further appeasements and rewards for bad parenting.
The he free school meals is a great example. On paper it is superb. It would mean that children with parents unwilling to feed their own children will at least get one meal a day but in reality all it will mean is an increase in parents who don't need to feed their own children.
Any new teachers will end up having all their time consumed by the bottom few percent not in helping the majority to excel.
You can't just put a bit of money in and expect anything to change. It requires something far more Draconian to facilitate the reversal of a cultural shift.
The state school system needs £bns pumped in for new infrastructure, better facilities, paying off the bad teachers, buying in more of the good teachers, adding more GCSE options, getting more to take A levels, offering a wider choice of A levels. None of which will be done. Millions of children every year will continue to be failed. The costs will keep creeping up and more and more valuable resources will be hijacked by loser parents.
It's no different really to blighted housing estates where a minority of families destroy the environment for everyone else who lives there and is trying to move forward in life but vast sums of taxpayer money that should be used on them to help them move forwards is instead being consumed by the minority who are subsequently empowered to actively hold everyone else back.
Carrots for those who deserve carrots, sticks for those demanding sticks. Just continuing to take money off the majority to pay off and appease a minority hasn't worked and we've been throwing more and more money at that for 25 years. At some point we will get the message that blaming everyone other than those responsible and hurling endless money into a pit isn't really working.
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
One thing that doesn’t get mentioned is the charitable status point. I suspect there will be little point in continuing to run as a charity if all the benefits are removed. However, the trustees (governors?) can’t just decide to wind up the charity and run the school as a private venture (I imagine it is very difficult to wind up a charity like this).
However, I suspect the trustees will suddenly find they will struggle to provide any charitable benefit. Not sure I’d want to be a trustee (governor?) at the moment, as lots of difficult decisions approaching.
However, I suspect the trustees will suddenly find they will struggle to provide any charitable benefit. Not sure I’d want to be a trustee (governor?) at the moment, as lots of difficult decisions approaching.
Edited by Notreallymeeither on Sunday 30th June 18:14
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
Zolvaro said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
Zolvaro said:
University is to some degree a meritocricy, of course that is again skewed by Rich parents buying their kids an advantage through independent schools
Or is it that the State system is failing millions meaning there is no credible competition for places?There's two arguments here, one that some parents are able to pay to achieve a better chance of being accepted and the other is that they have no real competition because the State school system barely bothers and is completely bogged down wiping the arsed of a loser parent minority to the detriment of all others.
We can choose to believe either bit given that universities have been told to favour state school applicants but can't find enough, the evidence does somewhat suggest that this is not a problem caused by the minority who benefit from private education but a systemic failure of the State system to get the best results out of the millions of children more than intelligent enough to go to the best universities. But it's certainly easier to blame that minority than the one really to blame.
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
If you think the fact that the top universities now have to give a slight preference to any of the kids from the 2nd group that have somehow managed to claw their way to same attainments levels of the 1st group is any way levelling that playing field then you have a very different idea of fairness than I do.
Zolvaro said:
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
If you think the fact that the top universities now have to give a slight preference to any of the kids from the 2nd group that have somehow managed to claw their way to same attainments levels of the 1st group is any way levelling that playing field then you have a very different idea of fairness than I do.
There are a lot of children in independent schools because state school has failed them. The best universities are denying them places because they are prioritising state school kids. That isn't fair, to my mind.
An aside - I can see this "positive discrimination" working against state school children eventually. When a state school child attends Oxbridge there will always be that nagging doubt about whether they got there on merit, or to tick a box.
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
If you think the fact that the top universities now have to give a slight preference to any of the kids from the 2nd group that have somehow managed to claw their way to same attainments levels of the 1st group is any way levelling that playing field then you have a very different idea of fairness than I do.
There are a lot of children in independent schools because state school has failed them. The best universities are denying them places because they are prioritising state school kids. That isn't fair, to my mind.
An aside - I can see this "positive discrimination" working against state school children eventually. When a state school child attends Oxbridge there will always be that nagging doubt about whether they got there on merit, or to tick a box.
As an aside you are still 4 times more likely to go to Oxbridge as privately educated student, so if you can't make those odds, just accept you aren't good enough as your real peers, those with the same advantages as you, beat you to those places.
Edited by Zolvaro on Monday 1st July 07:50
DonkeyApple said:
TUS373 said:
Saying that - this thread is about independent schools therefore education and kids. The state schools are often schools that are in a state. That's not the fault of those who have sought instead to pay for their kids' education. Labour's targeting of something that works is disgraceful and iniquitous.
So much teaching time appears to be being consumed by failed parents who are unable to raise a child and get them to school or ensure they behave if they do turn up that society surely needs to have an honest debate as to whether this small number of people should continue soaking up the resources needed by the majority or whether they are just cut loose? It's a horrible concept but we've surely reached the point where excessive appeasement of a handful of terrible families is now doing serious harm to the prospects of all children? The money taken from the top 7% is just going to be swallowed up by the bottom 7% with nothing improving for anyone? said:
Take the money and envy out of the debate and what you get is clarity.
The children of Britain are not being failed by the tiny number that attend private school but by terrible parents meeting terrible teachers in too great a number and those terrible adults end up dominating, consuming all the resources and dragging millions of victims down into their gutter existence. They're a black hole sucking the future from the children of this country.
Yet rather than face the glaring truth we just want to go down the low IQ 'blame the minority' path.
'You're child is failing because of a child somewhere at the other end of the country who has absolutely nothing to do with you and not because their class is riddled with undisciplined, unloved children of negligent adults and potentially overseen by a slacker adult who just wants to be on a three day week like their mate Sharon so they can spend more time whinging about how unfair it is that they have to work a few hours a day for half the year and then retire early on a risk free, bulletproof income.
Labour aren't even going to use the tax raised to invest in good parent's children yet here are people actively supporting more of the same abject and endless failure because like flat earthers they want to believe the fantastical not the reality.
Zolvaro said:
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
If you think the fact that the top universities now have to give a slight preference to any of the kids from the 2nd group that have somehow managed to claw their way to same attainments levels of the 1st group is any way levelling that playing field then you have a very different idea of fairness than I do.
There are a lot of children in independent schools because state school has failed them. The best universities are denying them places because they are prioritising state school kids. That isn't fair, to my mind.
An aside - I can see this "positive discrimination" working against state school children eventually. When a state school child attends Oxbridge there will always be that nagging doubt about whether they got there on merit, or to tick a box.
As an aside you are still 4 times more likely to go to Oxbridge as privately educated student, so if you can't make those odds, just accept you aren't good enough as your real peers, those with the same advantages as you, beat you to those places.
Edited by Zolvaro on Monday 1st July 07:50
Oxbridge offers in 2022: The proportion of places offered to state-school students was 68% at Oxford and 72.5% Cambridge. So where are you getting your "you are still 4 times more likely to go to Oxbridge as privately educated student"?
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Louis Balfour said:
Zolvaro said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Zolvaro said:
Kids have always been pulled out of private school because of change in circumstances, as I said earlier I would have tapered the VAT relief over a number of years to ease the burden.
The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
Good news - I have found a solution. The simple fact is private education is buying your child an advantage over their peers, I have no issue with that at all in fact my kids are about to go private, but the tax break is a bonus not a right.
There are, let’s say, 1.5m students in the UK. Average fees of £10k (let’s say, it’s easier on the maths). £2k VAT x 1.5m = £3bn.
We MUST remove this tax break from university students. It is buying an advantage over non-university educated people.
PS I’m being sarcastic, it would stuff me even further if my 2 wanted to go to university in a few years time. I just don’t see how you can justify one but not the other.
If you think the fact that the top universities now have to give a slight preference to any of the kids from the 2nd group that have somehow managed to claw their way to same attainments levels of the 1st group is any way levelling that playing field then you have a very different idea of fairness than I do.
There are a lot of children in independent schools because state school has failed them. The best universities are denying them places because they are prioritising state school kids. That isn't fair, to my mind.
An aside - I can see this "positive discrimination" working against state school children eventually. When a state school child attends Oxbridge there will always be that nagging doubt about whether they got there on merit, or to tick a box.
As an aside you are still 4 times more likely to go to Oxbridge as privately educated student, so if you can't make those odds, just accept you aren't good enough as your real peers, those with the same advantages as you, beat you to those places.
Edited by Zolvaro on Monday 1st July 07:50
Oxbridge offers in 2022: The proportion of places offered to state-school students was 68% at Oxford and 72.5% Cambridge. So where are you getting your "you are still 4 times more likely to go to Oxbridge as privately educated student"?
7% of students are privately educated, yet 30% of students at Oxbridge are privately educated. You have a much better chance of going to Oxbridge if you are privately educated.
Wombat3 said:
Zolvaro said:
Oh did little sunny-kins not make it in to Oxford?
.
Ah, the caring sneering left......
Always with the ad-homs when people don't roll over and tell you what an intellectual titan you are.
(Your maths is pretty questionable too)
Dispute the maths then, you could use..... well maths if you like! I can't wait to see how our oppressed privately educated kids are under represented.
Edited by Zolvaro on Monday 1st July 08:41
Zolvaro said:
Oh did little sunny-kins not make it in to Oxford?
7% of students are privately educated, yet 30% of students at Oxbridge are privately educated. You have a much better chance of going to Oxbridge if you are privately educated.
The stats change a bit for sixth form7% of students are privately educated, yet 30% of students at Oxbridge are privately educated. You have a much better chance of going to Oxbridge if you are privately educated.
It's around 20% in private 6th form colleges, which is an interesting change in itself.
TownIdiot said:
Zolvaro said:
Oh did little sunny-kins not make it in to Oxford?
7% of students are privately educated, yet 30% of students at Oxbridge are privately educated. You have a much better chance of going to Oxbridge if you are privately educated.
The stats change a bit for sixth form7% of students are privately educated, yet 30% of students at Oxbridge are privately educated. You have a much better chance of going to Oxbridge if you are privately educated.
It's around 20% in private 6th form colleges, which is an interesting change in itself.
https://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...
0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford
0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford
So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford
Zolvaro said:
I've done the maths, I've been generous and allowed for the fact that 12.2% of pupils who do A-Levels are from private schools.
https://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...
0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford
0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford
So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford
Yes as I said the stats are a bit different so rather than 4 times more likely as you stated you are 3 and a bit times more likelyhttps://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...
0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford
0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford
So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford
TownIdiot said:
Zolvaro said:
I've done the maths, I've been generous and allowed for the fact that 12.2% of pupils who do A-Levels are from private schools.
https://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...
0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford
0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford
So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford
Yes as I said the stats are a bit different so rather than 4 times more likely as you stated you are 3 and a bit times more likelyhttps://www.civitas.org.uk/2023/02/24/private-scho...
0.0106 chance for a state school child to get into Oxford
0.0335 chance for a private school child to get into Oxford
So over 3 times more likely to go to Oxford however if you base it on the 7% that are privately educated rather than just those who do A-Levels as that reflects education as a whole it goes it up over 5 times more likely to make it into Oxford
Based upon the current figures if 2 kids start school today, one in a private school, one in a state school, the privately educated kid is over 5 times more likely to get into Oxford. That's the reality.
Edited by Zolvaro on Monday 1st July 09:13
Universities are not making a blanket state school vs private school judgement and applying bias at that level. When they choose between two students they look at the exact schools they went to. This allows them to take a well educated guess on which student has better academic potential. In addition universities do not exclusively base selection on grades but on a broader picture of the person applying and how they will fit into the university.
When you add all the individual student decisions up you can get what you may (incorrectly) perceive as a state vs private bias.
When you add all the individual student decisions up you can get what you may (incorrectly) perceive as a state vs private bias.
Edited by C4ME on Monday 1st July 09:21
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