Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
CS Garth said:
Louis Balfour said:
Sure, but Labour has said that VAT won't be introduced until September 2025. There is no forestalling if fees are paid in 2024 for the 2024-2025 school year, as far as I am aware.
This story is from 3 hours ago. If Labour win VAT will be applied from the time of their first budget in September 2024 facilitated by anti-forestalling measures. https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/labour-to-close-vat-...
article said:
he anti-forestalling legislation would ensure that any fees paid in advance for education provided after the VAT comes into force will still be subject to the tax.
So fees paid in 2024 for 2024/2025 would not be subject to VAT.loafer123 said:
NDA said:
It's also worth noting that business rate relief is also going to be scrapped by Labour - which is going to be a substantial additional cost.
Depends what the valuation methodology is…if it’s profits method, they won’t be high.Our school have released a letter outlining next years fees from Sept 2024 and the following years fees from Sept 2025 to 2026. They have effectively added approx 9.7% to what we paid this year and the following year 2025/26 have applied a maximum cap of 10% again. This is all subject to interest rates remaining below 3.8%. These increases also are to include any VAT applied by a Labour government as part of its planned policy.
2023/24 £17295.00 per annum
2024/25 £18975.00 per annum including any VAT
2025/26 £20872.50 per annum including any VAT
Part of me feels they are trying to be helpful but the 9.7% next year strikes me as a knee jerk reaction to the threat of VAT which apparently now won’t happen until 2025/26 year. I feel they should reconsider this and reduce to maybe a 3 or 4% rise next year. My son leaves before 2026/27 year but if they push prices up as proposed that year would be £25047.00 pa which is an enormous rise from £17295 this year.
2023/24 £17295.00 per annum
2024/25 £18975.00 per annum including any VAT
2025/26 £20872.50 per annum including any VAT
Part of me feels they are trying to be helpful but the 9.7% next year strikes me as a knee jerk reaction to the threat of VAT which apparently now won’t happen until 2025/26 year. I feel they should reconsider this and reduce to maybe a 3 or 4% rise next year. My son leaves before 2026/27 year but if they push prices up as proposed that year would be £25047.00 pa which is an enormous rise from £17295 this year.
Mikebentley said:
Our school have released a letter outlining next years fees from Sept 2024 and the following years fees from Sept 2025 to 2026. They have effectively added approx 9.7% to what we paid this year and the following year 2025/26 have applied a maximum cap of 10% again. This is all subject to interest rates remaining below 3.8%. These increases also are to include any VAT applied by a Labour government as part of its planned policy.
2023/24 £17295.00 per annum
2024/25 £18975.00 per annum including any VAT
2025/26 £20872.50 per annum including any VAT
Part of me feels they are trying to be helpful but the 9.7% next year strikes me as a knee jerk reaction to the threat of VAT which apparently now won’t happen until 2025/26 year. I feel they should reconsider this and reduce to maybe a 3 or 4% rise next year. My son leaves before 2026/27 year but if they push prices up as proposed that year would be £25047.00 pa which is an enormous rise from £17295 this year.
I thought it was interesting Kier Starmer saying schools struggle to it's right private schools struggle....so less of making it better just worse for me lol. The issue as I see it will be the free places or supported places for kids will go. So ensuring even more kids don't get support they need.2023/24 £17295.00 per annum
2024/25 £18975.00 per annum including any VAT
2025/26 £20872.50 per annum including any VAT
Part of me feels they are trying to be helpful but the 9.7% next year strikes me as a knee jerk reaction to the threat of VAT which apparently now won’t happen until 2025/26 year. I feel they should reconsider this and reduce to maybe a 3 or 4% rise next year. My son leaves before 2026/27 year but if they push prices up as proposed that year would be £25047.00 pa which is an enormous rise from £17295 this year.
If you want to improve state schools make teaching more attractive cut spending in one area an move it to education. EV subsidies for example won't you think of the children an all that. But harming some kids to help others seems silly
Interesting discussions between teachers and pupils at the fee paying school my son attends. Life long labour voters themselves, but naturally very much against VAT on the school fees..so they are not voting for Labour. No surprise Sherlock.
The more I see of Starmer, the more I think he is Startlefart. He looks very lost on a podium and a puppet of the party. I'm actually looking forward to the election.
The more I see of Starmer, the more I think he is Startlefart. He looks very lost on a podium and a puppet of the party. I'm actually looking forward to the election.
Tom8 said:
Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.
I'm not sure that is too likely but what I suspect will happen is that schools start separating out items in their invoicing as there are large elements of the costs that wouldn't be VATable, TUS373 said:
Interesting discussions between teachers and pupils at the fee paying school my son attends. Life long labour voters themselves, but naturally very much against VAT on the school fees..so they are not voting for Labour. No surprise Sherlock.
Sounds like a lot of labour voters I know, happy to spend other peoples money, not so keen when that money has to come from anywhere near them.Zolvaro said:
TUS373 said:
Interesting discussions between teachers and pupils at the fee paying school my son attends. Life long labour voters themselves, but naturally very much against VAT on the school fees..so they are not voting for Labour. No surprise Sherlock.
Sounds like a lot of labour voters I know, happy to spend other peoples money, not so keen when that money has to come from anywhere near them.Very narrow minded by Labour. If it backfires will heads roll?
Petition at 170k now.
https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-2...
Petition at 170k now.
https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-2...
zorba_the_greek said:
Very narrow minded by Labour. If it backfires will heads roll?
Petition at 170k now.
https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-2...
They won't it's a niche issue that play wells with their core voters, and to be honest it's a reasonable policy, I would however have introduced it in say 5% steps rather than all in one go to to help parents adjust, 20% rise in one go is pretty harsh.Petition at 170k now.
https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-2...
The policy is an utter disgrace. They say "it's not class war" but literally cannot help themselves from rolling it in exactly the same sentence as "going after the non-dom tax avoiders", every single time. They also have to say "private schools" on every soundbite, never "independent schools" because "Private School" sounds more like "Private Bank", obvs.
They say "they are closing the loophole on private schools because they are a business". So are nurseries, but obviously they won't charge VAT there because "Labour impose VAT on nurseries" is not a good front page. And so are universities, but "Labour impose VAT on universities" would of course lose them the student vote.
They are already making excuses about "don't expect big changes, there's no money, no we're not ruling out tax increases in certain areas" but somehow expect independent schools to absorb a 20% cost increase.
I was lucky enough to go to an independent school because I won a place there...my mum was on her own, a part time cleaner and medical receptionist. I didn't go to university as I couldn't afford to. Yes I've done OK for myself and have a nice life now at 50, all through hard work throughout my career. I choose to send my son to an independent school because he is dyslexic (and also awaiting a dyscalculia assessment result with an expected severe diagnosis) and was pretty much being failed by the state system, who could not even manage to arrange a single face to face parents' evening in the whole time he was at his last school. A few minutes on Zoom once a term was all that was required for a struggling child with difficult educational needs apparently.
Since going to a small, very "ordinary" independent school he has flourished socially, changed his attitude from floods of tears and hiding at the school gate in the morning, to trotting in without looking back, and has taken really well to art, music and sport. That's his "level playing field" Sir Kier, because right now the academic one has a real uphill slope to it, although he is at least getting the proper help he needs to make progress here because his wider family unit (his mother and I are separated but 100% put any differences aside when it comes to his education and welfare) are all working together and making sacrifices to try and do the best for him. Meanwhile the engagement from the school has been nothing short of exemplary. However even though he is registered as a SEND child, his needs will never be sufficient to warrant an EHCP so there's no exemption.
The hypocrisy of Surrey born and bred Starmer, Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath, and Queen's Counsel, declaring "Class War" on people like me (like it or not Sir Kier, I am 100% working class), and more to the point playing politics with my 8 year old son's life chances, just to score a few votes, is pathetic. All the sums show it will make absolutely bugger all difference to actually funding state schools, half a maths teacher per school last time I looked, meanwhile independent schools are threatened with closure, and even the teachers' unions, with an overwhelming majority of members who work in the state system, categorically do not want this change.
As I said, it's an utter disgrace. Oh, and another brilliant benefit of Brexit...because under the old EU law, it would have been illegal to charge VAT on education.
Rant over.
They say "they are closing the loophole on private schools because they are a business". So are nurseries, but obviously they won't charge VAT there because "Labour impose VAT on nurseries" is not a good front page. And so are universities, but "Labour impose VAT on universities" would of course lose them the student vote.
They are already making excuses about "don't expect big changes, there's no money, no we're not ruling out tax increases in certain areas" but somehow expect independent schools to absorb a 20% cost increase.
I was lucky enough to go to an independent school because I won a place there...my mum was on her own, a part time cleaner and medical receptionist. I didn't go to university as I couldn't afford to. Yes I've done OK for myself and have a nice life now at 50, all through hard work throughout my career. I choose to send my son to an independent school because he is dyslexic (and also awaiting a dyscalculia assessment result with an expected severe diagnosis) and was pretty much being failed by the state system, who could not even manage to arrange a single face to face parents' evening in the whole time he was at his last school. A few minutes on Zoom once a term was all that was required for a struggling child with difficult educational needs apparently.
Since going to a small, very "ordinary" independent school he has flourished socially, changed his attitude from floods of tears and hiding at the school gate in the morning, to trotting in without looking back, and has taken really well to art, music and sport. That's his "level playing field" Sir Kier, because right now the academic one has a real uphill slope to it, although he is at least getting the proper help he needs to make progress here because his wider family unit (his mother and I are separated but 100% put any differences aside when it comes to his education and welfare) are all working together and making sacrifices to try and do the best for him. Meanwhile the engagement from the school has been nothing short of exemplary. However even though he is registered as a SEND child, his needs will never be sufficient to warrant an EHCP so there's no exemption.
The hypocrisy of Surrey born and bred Starmer, Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath, and Queen's Counsel, declaring "Class War" on people like me (like it or not Sir Kier, I am 100% working class), and more to the point playing politics with my 8 year old son's life chances, just to score a few votes, is pathetic. All the sums show it will make absolutely bugger all difference to actually funding state schools, half a maths teacher per school last time I looked, meanwhile independent schools are threatened with closure, and even the teachers' unions, with an overwhelming majority of members who work in the state system, categorically do not want this change.
As I said, it's an utter disgrace. Oh, and another brilliant benefit of Brexit...because under the old EU law, it would have been illegal to charge VAT on education.
Rant over.
Hard-Drive said:
I choose to send my son to an independent school because he is dyslexic (and also awaiting a dyscalculia assessment result with an expected severe diagnosis) and was pretty much being failed by the state system, who could not even manage to arrange a single face to face parents' evening in the whole time he was at his last school. A few minutes on Zoom once a term was all that was required for a struggling child with difficult educational needs apparently.
Since going to a small, very "ordinary" independent school he has flourished socially, changed his attitude from floods of tears and hiding at the school gate in the morning, to trotting in without looking back, and has taken really well to art, music and sport. That's his "level playing field" Sir Kier, because right now the academic one has a real uphill slope to it, although he is at least getting the proper help he needs to make progress here because his wider family unit (his mother and I are separated but 100% put any differences aside when it comes to his education and welfare) are all working together and making sacrifices to try and do the best for him. Meanwhile the engagement from the school has been nothing short of exemplary. However even though he is registered as a SEND child, his needs will never be sufficient to warrant an EHCP so there's no exemption.
Same situation with my daughter - her state primary was all over us when she was diagnosed right up to the point they started recieving her Pupil Premium, then......nothing.Since going to a small, very "ordinary" independent school he has flourished socially, changed his attitude from floods of tears and hiding at the school gate in the morning, to trotting in without looking back, and has taken really well to art, music and sport. That's his "level playing field" Sir Kier, because right now the academic one has a real uphill slope to it, although he is at least getting the proper help he needs to make progress here because his wider family unit (his mother and I are separated but 100% put any differences aside when it comes to his education and welfare) are all working together and making sacrifices to try and do the best for him. Meanwhile the engagement from the school has been nothing short of exemplary. However even though he is registered as a SEND child, his needs will never be sufficient to warrant an EHCP so there's no exemption.
They even 'forgot' to take her off the roll when we took her out so they got an extra year of cash from the taxpayer.
Her school now is, just as you say her level playing field. She loves sport, singing and drama, has just starred in Bugsy Malone and bowled one of the boys out for a golden duck yesterday in her first hardball cricket taster session.
She goes to learning support two lunchtimes a week and her reading has improved so much in the time she's been there, and with it her confidence and love of learning.
We pay fees from my earned income and 20% will be a struggle, but we'll absolutely do it because for kids like ours the state system just doesn't work.
loafer123 said:
NDA said:
It's also worth noting that business rate relief is also going to be scrapped by Labour - which is going to be a substantial additional cost.
Depends what the valuation methodology is…if it’s profits method, they won’t be high.
TownIdiot said:
Will this stop you sending your son to the independent school?
Attitude and affordability are different. Is an interesting point around private nursery. I dare say that (despite them costing just as much) the view of private nursery is VERY different to private school. Odd isn’t it.
okgo said:
Attitude and affordability are different.
Is an interesting point around private nursery. I dare say that (despite them costing just as much) the view of private nursery is VERY different to private school. Odd isn’t it.
Is it odd? It's been a while since I looked but is there such a thing as a "state nursery"? From what I can tell from the outside that's a fIs an interesting point around private nursery. I dare say that (despite them costing just as much) the view of private nursery is VERY different to private school. Odd isn’t it.
ked up market full of price gouging. I asked if it would impact whether his child could remain as I am genuinely interested in how many people will have to remove children from school as this is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Tom8 said:
I see in his latest interview, Starmer says it won't impact schools or families and schools will just swallow it up. And he says Sunak is out of touch?
They're both in the London bullst bubble and think everyone has endless amounts of money. It's very clearly going to have an impact. One of which will be that they won't raise anywhere near the £2bn they're projecting. Interestingly, school brokers are suddenly maxed out as they've been engaged by any school with birding facilities to go overseas and get slots filled. The big schools are going to be fine but the normal majority are going to be struggling.
Interesting aspect to consider is what happens to a conventional, nothing special public school that ends up throwing the towel in? The pupils won't fit into the already maxed local secondary network but there you suddenly have an empty school ready to be populated by the ex pupils who will become state secondary pupils and ex teachers who can be pay matched to be the source of the 6500 new state school teachers?
In about 12 months time would we, of should we be surprised to hear that Labour are to set up a rescue package for failing public schools. Basically the nationalisation of these schools for pennies?
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