Private schools, times a changing?

Private schools, times a changing?

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Discussion

M1AGM

2,434 posts

35 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
ClaphamGT3 said:
I think this is why Reeves is already having to come clean about the fact that they won't get this off the ground until September 2025 at the earliest.

The other obvious challenge is going to be around the (very few) private schools in NI. They are going to have to be VAT-exempt so as not to jeopardise the NI relationship with the EU &, therefore, the Good Friday agreement. Someone (HMC if nobody else) is going to challenge on the application of VAT regulations differently in different parts of the UK
This. EU law exempts education from VAT (subject to meeting the criteria). Every time I see one of the labour shadow lot on tv being asked questions about their plans (not just this vat issue) they are clueless on any detail or how they will mitigate the real world issues on delivering their agendas.

macron

10,050 posts

169 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
RammyMP said:
We’ve had a letter from school asking us if we want to pay the fees in advance to avoid the VAT, I’m going to take them up on their offer.

TownIdiot

529 posts

2 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
macron said:
Not entirely sure it will be seen as "forestalling" as paying a year in one go is fairly usual practice.
Paying multiple years in advance is a different matter.

borcy

3,434 posts

59 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-starmer-says-t...


Interesting question from the interview

Sir Keir was also pressed on the recent backlash to the policy, which Ms Ridge suggested may be related to "many people in Westminster and in the media who either went to private school or send their children there".

RammyMP

6,852 posts

156 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
macron said:
According to the Telegraph they are not bringing it in until September 2025 so my youngest will be finished by then.

pork911

7,365 posts

186 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
NDA said:
pork911 said:
Ascayman said:
Our school has written a 10 page letter to Starmer highlighting just why this is so ridiculous and asked us all to send copies to our local mps.

It’s to long to post here and I don’t think you can post pdfs? Happy to share via email for anyone that’s interested though.
Where else are you opposing vat?
Just education I imagine.
Strange

CS Garth

2,870 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
macron said:
RammyMP said:
We’ve had a letter from school asking us if we want to pay the fees in advance to avoid the VAT, I’m going to take them up on their offer.
There is no precedent I am aware of that has enabled anti-forestalling to be effective prior to the announcement of the change - it usually covers the period from the announcement of the change until it is effective and introduced. The Conservatives did this in circa 2010 when they changed the VAT rate on amongst other things caravan storage. Journalists don’t research this they just repeat what Labour say so the forestalling scare story re unlimited retrospective application gets perpetuated.

I would say if you are invoiced for and pay fees before July 4 (or indeed any announcement of the change but it could be rushed out shortly after the election date so best to play safe) the chances of VAT being applicable are zero. Regardless HMRC would pursue the school first not you.

TownIdiot

529 posts

2 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Reeves has specifically said 2025, so I'd have thought this year is safe at the very least.

CS Garth

2,870 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
TownIdiot said:
Reeves has specifically said 2025, so I'd have thought this year is safe at the very least.
But this conflicts with the anti-forestalling narrative. It’s perfectly possibly to “bring it in” from 2025 but with anti-forestalling legislation from 2024. You or I might see this as bringing it in from 2024 but it’s political weasel words to say no it’s being brought in in 2025 just with look back.

TownIdiot

529 posts

2 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
CS Garth said:
But this conflicts with the anti-forestalling narrative. It’s perfectly possibly to “bring it in” from 2025 but with anti-forestalling legislation from 2024. You or I might see this as bringing it in from 2024 but it’s political weasel words to say no it’s being brought in in 2025 just with look back.
My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.

CS Garth

2,870 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
TownIdiot said:
My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.
I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.

Louis Balfour

26,705 posts

225 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
CS Garth said:
TownIdiot said:
My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.
I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.
How?

TownIdiot

529 posts

2 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
CS Garth said:
I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.
They have already said they won't bring it in for this coming year

NDA

21,792 posts

228 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
It's also worth noting that business rate relief is also going to be scrapped by Labour - which is going to be a substantial additional cost.

CS Garth

2,870 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Louis Balfour said:
CS Garth said:
TownIdiot said:
My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.
I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.
How?
This summarises the machinations of the legislative situation in 2010 and is the main anti-forestalling VAT precedent.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-time-...


CS Garth

2,870 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
TownIdiot said:
CS Garth said:
I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.
They have already said they won't bring it in for this coming year
I don’t trust any politicians I’m afraid.

Louis Balfour

26,705 posts

225 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
CS Garth said:
Louis Balfour said:
CS Garth said:
TownIdiot said:
My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.
I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.
How?
This summarises the machinations of the legislative situation in 2010 and is the main anti-forestalling VAT precedent.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-time-...
Sure, but Labour has said that VAT won't be introduced until September 2025. There is no forestalling if fees are paid in 2024 for the 2024-2025 school year, as far as I am aware.



TownIdiot

529 posts

2 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
CS Garth said:
I don’t trust any politicians I’m afraid.
I can understand this.
It doesn't seem like something to lose any sleep over in this instance.

CS Garth

2,870 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
Louis Balfour said:
Sure, but Labour has said that VAT won't be introduced until September 2025. There is no forestalling if fees are paid in 2024 for the 2024-2025 school year, as far as I am aware.
This story is from 3 hours ago. If Labour win VAT will be applied from the time of their first budget in September 2024 facilitated by anti-forestalling measures.

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/labour-to-close-vat-...

TownIdiot

529 posts

2 months

Thursday 27th June
quotequote all
CS Garth said:
This story is from 3 hours ago. If Labour win VAT will be applied from the time of their first budget in September 2024 facilitated by anti-forestalling measures.

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/labour-to-close-vat-...
Applying to fees from school year 25/26 onwards