Private schools, times a changing?

[Tom8]

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

[EmBe]

Tom8 said:

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

Anything 'clever' like that will be classed as a loophole and closed quickly.
To make this go away for good a legal challenge needs to happen, probably along the lines of forcing the government to charge VAT on all education which would then prompt a quick about face. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement to delay the scheme to 2025 was in response to the knowledge of a school/group of schools threatening just such a move.

[Sway]

EmBe said:

Tom8 said:

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

Anything 'clever' like that will be classed as a loophole and closed quickly.
To make this go away for good a legal challenge needs to happen, probably along the lines of forcing the government to charge VAT on all education which would then prompt a quick about face. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement to delay the scheme to 2025 was in response to the knowledge of a school/group of schools threatening just such a move.

The legislation to enact VAT solely on public schools is going to be very complex. There's a whole plethora of 'fee paying education establishments', and Labour are going to have to work quite hard in coming up with the specific criteria that only hits Eton and not Middlesborough Uni, or a charity providing training courses.

[ClaphamGT3]

Sway said:

EmBe said:

Tom8 said:

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

Anything 'clever' like that will be classed as a loophole and closed quickly.
To make this go away for good a legal challenge needs to happen, probably along the lines of forcing the government to charge VAT on all education which would then prompt a quick about face. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement to delay the scheme to 2025 was in response to the knowledge of a school/group of schools threatening just such a move.

The legislation to enact VAT solely on public schools is going to be very complex. There's a whole plethora of 'fee paying education establishments', and Labour are going to have to work quite hard in coming up with the specific criteria that only hits Eton and not Middlesborough Uni, or a charity providing training courses.

I think this is why Reeves is already having to come clean about the fact that they won't get this off the ground until September 2025 at the earliest.

The other obvious challenge is going to be around the (very few) private schools in NI. They are going to have to be VAT-exempt so as not to jeopardise the NI relationship with the EU &, therefore, the Good Friday agreement. Someone (HMC if nobody else) is going to challenge on the application of VAT regulations differently in different parts of the UK

[Tom8]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Sway said:

EmBe said:

Tom8 said:

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

Anything 'clever' like that will be classed as a loophole and closed quickly.
To make this go away for good a legal challenge needs to happen, probably along the lines of forcing the government to charge VAT on all education which would then prompt a quick about face. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement to delay the scheme to 2025 was in response to the knowledge of a school/group of schools threatening just such a move.

The legislation to enact VAT solely on public schools is going to be very complex. There's a whole plethora of 'fee paying education establishments', and Labour are going to have to work quite hard in coming up with the specific criteria that only hits Eton and not Middlesborough Uni, or a charity providing training courses.

I think this is why Reeves is already having to come clean about the fact that they won't get this off the ground until September 2025 at the earliest.

The other obvious challenge is going to be around the (very few) private schools in NI. They are going to have to be VAT-exempt so as not to jeopardise the NI relationship with the EU &, therefore, the Good Friday agreement. Someone (HMC if nobody else) is going to challenge on the application of VAT regulations differently in different parts of the UK

You just know it was a Rayner/Corbyn envy idea and Kier just went, yeah ok and didn't think about it. Then when the people with more than single digit brain cells have to look at it it becomes difficult.

[Spare tyre]

Tom8 said:

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

Will make for very expensive goal posts!

Joking aside a few of my work mates send their kids to private school, it’s caused a lot of upset and frantic changing of plans such as moving house etc

[Swervin_Mervin]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Sway said:

EmBe said:

Tom8 said:

Will we end up with funny schemes to avoid it? I like the idea of schools becoming membership clubs, to be a member you have to buy a blazer for £15k and your fees are "free" and no VAT as it is school uniform which is exempt.

Anything 'clever' like that will be classed as a loophole and closed quickly.
To make this go away for good a legal challenge needs to happen, probably along the lines of forcing the government to charge VAT on all education which would then prompt a quick about face. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement to delay the scheme to 2025 was in response to the knowledge of a school/group of schools threatening just such a move.

The legislation to enact VAT solely on public schools is going to be very complex. There's a whole plethora of 'fee paying education establishments', and Labour are going to have to work quite hard in coming up with the specific criteria that only hits Eton and not Middlesborough Uni, or a charity providing training courses.

I think this is why Reeves is already having to come clean about the fact that they won't get this off the ground until September 2025 at the earliest.

The other obvious challenge is going to be around the (very few) private schools in NI. They are going to have to be VAT-exempt so as not to jeopardise the NI relationship with the EU &, therefore, the Good Friday agreement. Someone (HMC if nobody else) is going to challenge on the application of VAT regulations differently in different parts of the UK

And that's before you even start on Labour wanting closer ties with the EU...

[M1AGM]

ClaphamGT3 said:

I think this is why Reeves is already having to come clean about the fact that they won't get this off the ground until September 2025 at the earliest.

The other obvious challenge is going to be around the (very few) private schools in NI. They are going to have to be VAT-exempt so as not to jeopardise the NI relationship with the EU &, therefore, the Good Friday agreement. Someone (HMC if nobody else) is going to challenge on the application of VAT regulations differently in different parts of the UK

This. EU law exempts education from VAT (subject to meeting the criteria). Every time I see one of the labour shadow lot on tv being asked questions about their plans (not just this vat issue) they are clueless on any detail or how they will mitigate the real world issues on delivering their agendas.

[macron]

RammyMP said:

We’ve had a letter from school asking us if we want to pay the fees in advance to avoid the VAT, I’m going to take them up on their offer.

[TownIdiot]

macron said:

Not entirely sure it will be seen as "forestalling" as paying a year in one go is fairly usual practice.
Paying multiple years in advance is a different matter.

[borcy]

https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-starmer-says-t...


Interesting question from the interview

Sir Keir was also pressed on the recent backlash to the policy, which Ms Ridge suggested may be related to "many people in Westminster and in the media who either went to private school or send their children there".

[RammyMP]

macron said:

According to the Telegraph they are not bringing it in until September 2025 so my youngest will be finished by then.

[pork911]

NDA said:

pork911 said:

Ascayman said:

Our school has written a 10 page letter to Starmer highlighting just why this is so ridiculous and asked us all to send copies to our local mps.

It’s to long to post here and I don’t think you can post pdfs? Happy to share via email for anyone that’s interested though.

Where else are you opposing vat?

Just education I imagine.

Strange

[CS Garth]

macron said:

RammyMP said:

We’ve had a letter from school asking us if we want to pay the fees in advance to avoid the VAT, I’m going to take them up on their offer.

There is no precedent I am aware of that has enabled anti-forestalling to be effective prior to the announcement of the change - it usually covers the period from the announcement of the change until it is effective and introduced. The Conservatives did this in circa 2010 when they changed the VAT rate on amongst other things caravan storage. Journalists don’t research this they just repeat what Labour say so the forestalling scare story re unlimited retrospective application gets perpetuated.

I would say if you are invoiced for and pay fees before July 4 (or indeed any announcement of the change but it could be rushed out shortly after the election date so best to play safe) the chances of VAT being applicable are zero. Regardless HMRC would pursue the school first not you.

[TownIdiot]

Reeves has specifically said 2025, so I'd have thought this year is safe at the very least.

[CS Garth]

TownIdiot said:

Reeves has specifically said 2025, so I'd have thought this year is safe at the very least.

But this conflicts with the anti-forestalling narrative. It’s perfectly possibly to “bring it in” from 2025 but with anti-forestalling legislation from 2024. You or I might see this as bringing it in from 2024 but it’s political weasel words to say no it’s being brought in in 2025 just with look back.

[TownIdiot]

CS Garth said:

But this conflicts with the anti-forestalling narrative. It’s perfectly possibly to “bring it in” from 2025 but with anti-forestalling legislation from 2024. You or I might see this as bringing it in from 2024 but it’s political weasel words to say no it’s being brought in in 2025 just with look back.

My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.

[CS Garth]

TownIdiot said:

My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.

I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.

[Louis Balfour]

CS Garth said:

TownIdiot said:

My point being that it won't matter for the 24/25 school year.

25/26 and beyond would be a gamble, and I'd imagine it is really very rare to pay multiple years in advance.

I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.

How?

[TownIdiot]

CS Garth said:

I hear you but if they announced anti-forestalling measures it could be that 24/25 are within the scope of VAT.

They have already said they won't bring it in for this coming year