Free education - A right or a privilege?

[Swilly]

Ummm it's not a right or a privilege, its a legal requirement.

With regards to the philosophical side of your question, education from the State's point of view should always be universal and mandatory.

If the State provides nothing else, it should at least provide universal free-at-the-point-of-receipt education.

Parents and children should never have the opportunity to decide if they want an education, if they don't want it, it should still be forced upon them.

When one generation remains uneducated you beget a series of generations of the same... and hence we find ourselves with an underclass, that can do nothing, contributes nothing but consumes all and affects all.

[black sabbath2]

Easy to be blase about it when we get it as a right,there are countries in the world with children who see education as a way of improving their future.Our chavs cant wait to be hanging around the streets causing mayhem,educating them is largely a waste of time.Given just a fraction of the opportunities afforded here,most third world countries kids would be queing round the block to take advantage of it.

[NDA]

Swilly said:

When one generation remains uneducated you beget a series of generations of the same... and hence we find ourselves with an underclass, that can do nothing, contributes nothing but consumes all and affects all.

Wise words.

Nice to see 'beget' out and about.

[Kermit power]

Swilly said:

Ummm it's not a right or a privilege, its a legal requirement.

With regards to the philosophical side of your question, education from the State's point of view should always be universal and mandatory.

If the State provides nothing else, it should at least provide universal free-at-the-point-of-receipt education.

Parents and children should never have the opportunity to decide if they want an education, if they don't want it, it should still be forced upon them.

When one generation remains uneducated you beget a series of generations of the same... and hence we find ourselves with an underclass, that can do nothing, contributes nothing but consumes all and affects all.

That's the view I would like to take, but how do we get to that point? How much do the parents and kids who don't want an education be allowed to disrupt the experience for those who do want it, before we say enough is enough?

[Swilly]

Kermit power said:

Swilly said:

Ummm it's not a right or a privilege, its a legal requirement.

With regards to the philosophical side of your question, education from the State's point of view should always be universal and mandatory.

If the State provides nothing else, it should at least provide universal free-at-the-point-of-receipt education.

Parents and children should never have the opportunity to decide if they want an education, if they don't want it, it should still be forced upon them.

When one generation remains uneducated you beget a series of generations of the same... and hence we find ourselves with an underclass, that can do nothing, contributes nothing but consumes all and affects all.

That's the view I would like to take, but how do we get to that point? How much do the parents and kids who don't want an education be allowed to disrupt the experience for those who do want it, before we say enough is enough?

There is never a point when a kid should be taken out of education. There IS a point when a kid should get sentenced to a state boarding school until they sort themselves out.

Education of course should be aimed in different ways at different people.
Real value should be returned to the grade system, so that people fail, pass badly, pass ok, pass well etc
More education should be vocational based for those that suit vocational training. You shouldn't need to go to university to do nursing to become a nurse for instance. That kind of education doesn't fulfil the requirements of the nursing role.

What i would introduce to education is the teaching of philosophy. Not a history of philosophy or philosophers, but lessons in philosophising, encouraging kids to develop skills of thinking, deduction, logic, morality through self-realisation as opposed to be told.

[okgo]

Austin.J said:

I last school just about 2 years ago, the last 2 years of school a few of us skived at least 2 lessons everyday without fail and fk me am i paying for it now, 1 of the blokes hasn't worked since we left and going on the dole, i'm working my arse off in a job which if i had decent grades would of made it a hell of alot easier. (wouldn't of been a temp for 6 month)

I know if i could go back to school and re-do it, i'd work my bks off and get decent grades then go to uni, everyone who thaught school was a "doss off" time now is either on the dole, or like me trying to work to get were i would of been if i had worked in school.

Edited by Austin.J on Sunday 22 March 22:01

The smart ones make it work somehow. Although I agree it is easier to go down the tried and tested route. But I am of the opinion if you have true intelligence, and can apply yourself, you can get almost anywhere.

[thinfourth2]

I think that if kids want to leave school then let them you can't force them to learn but you can force them to be there. All that does is mean that the kids who are capable of learning and want to pass exams are forced to have a disruptive tt in the classroom and teachers have to deal with the disruptive tt instead of teaching.

Let them leave formal schooling about 14ish as after then the won't learn anything useful for adult life but instead of dropping them on the dole push them into an apprenticeship or military. Then they can learn useful skills instead of algebra


And we must move away from this utterly stupid idea that education can only be sat in a classroom staring at a boring textbook

Edited by thinfourth2 on Monday 23 March 07:15

[HOGEPH]

NDA said:

Swilly said:

When one generation remains uneducated you beget a series of generations of the same... and hence we find ourselves with an underclass, that can do nothing, contributes nothing but consumes all and affects all.

Wise words.

Nice to see 'beget' out and about.

Smite would also be a useful old fashioned word when combined with the underclass.

[NDA]

HOGEPH said:

NDA said:

Swilly said:

When one generation remains uneducated you beget a series of generations of the same... and hence we find ourselves with an underclass, that can do nothing, contributes nothing but consumes all and affects all.

Wise words.

Nice to see 'beget' out and about.

Smite would also be a useful old fashioned word when combined with the underclass.

Good point. There's room for a 'didst' too I reckon.

[Martial Arts Man]

Swilly said:

What i would introduce to education is the teaching of philosophy. Not a history of philosophy or philosophers, but lessons in philosophising, encouraging kids to develop skills of thinking, deduction, logic, morality through self-realisation as opposed to be told.

May I also add strategy to that excellent list.

Many times I have considered putting a course together for kids, teaching them strategy with the use of history. Sadly, I have no idea how to go about getting it approved for teaching.

The classics and history in general have so many wonderful teachings to offer; I wish someone had explained the workings of power and long term strategic planning to me as a child!

Education is derived from the Latin to mean "draw out" (If my memory serves me correctly). We seem to have this back to front in that we only seem to "put in" these days.

[rhinochopig]

DIW35 said:

Vixpy1 said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

it should be the birth right of everyone.

Apart from the welsh

I thought racism was a big no-no on this forum!

Yeah, and having a pop at the learning disabled.

[BJG1]

Martial Arts Man said:

Swilly said:

What i would introduce to education is the teaching of philosophy. Not a history of philosophy or philosophers, but lessons in philosophising, encouraging kids to develop skills of thinking, deduction, logic, morality through self-realisation as opposed to be told.

May I also add strategy to that excellent list.

Many times I have considered putting a course together for kids, teaching them strategy with the use of history. Sadly, I have no idea how to go about getting it approved for teaching.

The classics and history in general have so many wonderful teachings to offer; I wish someone had explained the workings of power and long term strategic planning to me as a child!

Education is derived from the Latin to mean "draw out" (If my memory serves me correctly). We seem to have this back to front in that we only seem to "put in" these days.

And critical thinking - I would like to see more subjects taught which aim to get children thinking in a logical and reasoned way - rather than teaching them to regurgitate facts.

[ianash]

thinfourth2 said:

I think that if kids want to leave school then let them you can't force them to learn but you can force them to be there. All that does is mean that the kids who are capable of learning and want to pass exams are forced to have a disruptive tt in the classroom and teachers have to deal with the disruptive tt instead of teaching.

Let them leave formal schooling about 14ish as after then the won't learn anything useful for adult life but instead of dropping them on the dole push them into an apprenticeship or military. Then they can learn useful skills instead of algebra


And we must move away from this utterly stupid idea that education can only be sat in a classroom staring at a boring textbook

Edited by thinfourth2 on Monday 23 March 07:15

I totally agree with your post. I was forced to stay on at school until I was 15. The last year of my schooling was spent either playing truant, or being a bloody nuisance to the other kids who wanted to learn and get on. Even when I was legally allowed to be let go from school, they made my parents and me jump through several hoops. I was amongst the last ever Easter leavers.

When I went into the workplace I had dozens of dead end jobs, always on crap pay. In my late teens I realised I had to change. It took me another couple of years to get on track, but by my early 20's I was doing well. I always consider my real education started 4 years after I left school. My career to date has had many ups and more downs, but I never look back and wish I'd stayed on at school or had gone to university. I have a brother and a cousin who both stayed on and went into conventional careers. We are all broadly in the same financial position but I feel my work life has been much more interesting than theirs.

Don't let dogma keep kids in school, who really won't derive any benefit. Encourage the non-academic into training with their hands. Try and encourage them to make their own way in life. I'd rather see a 15 year old out washing windows and learning about work, than have him vegetating in a classroom, whilst holding everybody else back.

Sorry for the rant.

[NDA]

ianash said:

Don't let dogma keep kids in school, who really won't derive any benefit. Encourage the non-academic into training with their hands. Try and encourage them to make their own way in life. I'd rather see a 15 year old out washing windows and learning about work, than have him vegetating in a classroom, whilst holding everybody else back.

Sorry for the rant.

You might be right - but it's worth adding that times have probably changed a bit since you (and I) were at school. It is far harder to forge a career in anything meaningful if you left school at 15. There will be examples to contradict this (of course), but I would say they are in the minority.

[V6]

AJS- said:

Austin.J said:

I last left school just about 2 years ago, the last 2 years of school a few of us skived at least 2 lessons everyday without fail and fk me am i I (capital) paying for it now, ? (Question?) New sentence 1 One of the blokes is jobless and going on the dole, I'm working my arse off in a job which if I had decent grades would of have made it been a hell of a lot easier (wouldn't of have been a temp for 6 months - plural)

I know if I could go back to school and re-do it, I'd work my bks off and get decent grades then go to uni, New sentence Everyone who thaught thought school was a "doss off" time now is is now either on the dole, or like me trying to work to get where I would of have been if I had worked in school.

Call me a grammar nazi, but I believe you could greatly improve your employability by improving your grammar and spelling as per the corrections above, regardless of your GCSE results.

I left school with no GCSEs at all because I fked around royally, but I was fortunate enough to have supportive parents who valued education and backed me financially to go to college and later university, when I was a bit older and had perhaps learned some of the hard lessons you are learning at the moment.

I have also worked in recruitment, and I can think of no more sure fire way of making a bad impression than having glaring grammatical errors in your covering letter and CV. It's not like most recruitment consultants or HR people are grammar fanatics, as the advertisements testify, but the obvious ones will let you down.

You think posts on internet forums are directly related to how people's CVs are written and punctuated?

The grammatical, spelling and formatting quality of my posts are heavily influenced by whether I can be arsed, where I am and a myriad of other things.

[Timberwolf]

Kermit power said:

His mother, absolutely seriously, agreed that the queues were bloody awful, and that they would just take the kids out of school one day to get the rides without the queues!

Well if nothing else they're in for a bit of a shock.

Comparing the days when I've bunked off after they've taken the register* and the days when I've wandered down a theme park of a weekend, if anything, they're far more crowded on the weekdays.

Firstly there seem to be coach after coach of kids constantly being bussed in on weekdays, and since (I guess) these are school outings, at least a third of the kids will be jonesing for misbehaviour - and then you have all the sixth formers, university students and parents-as-above who've decided that a weekday is the better time to arrive, and folks on corporate jollies, and so on until the places get just rammed.

By comparison, the weekends at these places are pretty civilised... maybe it's one of those things where because "conventional wisdom" says it's a bad time to go, fewer people actually do so.

* - Oh alright. It was one of those corporatey let's-send-everyone-to-Thorpe-Park things for work.

[anonymous-user]

DIW35 said:

Vixpy1 said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

it should be the birth right of everyone.

Apart from the welsh

I thought racism was a big no-no on this forum!

It's a good thing we don't have feelings.

[thinfourth2]

NDA said:

ianash said:

Don't let dogma keep kids in school, who really won't derive any benefit. Encourage the non-academic into training with their hands. Try and encourage them to make their own way in life. I'd rather see a 15 year old out washing windows and learning about work, than have him vegetating in a classroom, whilst holding everybody else back.

Sorry for the rant.

You might be right - but it's worth adding that times have probably changed a bit since you (and I) were at school. It is far harder to forge a career in anything meaningful if you left school at 15. There will be examples to contradict this (of course), but I would say they are in the minority.

Yes times have changed and i think for the worse I'm not an academic and i was lucky that i got into my industry before a degree became basically mandatory and i'm a thicky with an HNC

So by rail roading those that are not academic to study we are not only disadvantaging the thickys like myself but you also disadvantage the non thickys by having them to put up with the disruption created by the frustrated thickys

Edited by thinfourth2 on Monday 23 March 20:10

[Snoggledog]

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of a Child said:

Article 28:

You have the right to education

Sorry chaps. You can't even blame Labour for a change

[ianash]

[/quote]NDA

You might be right - but it's worth adding that times have probably changed a bit since you (and I) were at school. It is far harder to forge a career in anything meaningful if you left school at 15. There will be examples to contradict this (of course), but I would say they are in the minority.
[/quote]

I'm not recomending that any pupil should leave school as the preferred option. But those that are bored and don't want to be there, should not be forced to stay on.

I do agree with you about the changes in the workplace. It seems to me that this great migration to higher education and university has had the perverse effect, of making jobs which were once the preserve of the unqualified, only now available to those with degrees. The problem is that the salaries are no more than were paid to the previous unqualified employees. I've read often on this forum, contributors saying how important university is for giving a rounding off for those who attend. My argument is that unless the years of extra education results in increased income, and for many it doesn't; why should they bother. Many Graduates are now leaving university with degrees of dubious value, strapped up with debt and no longer with the guarantee of a prosperous future, as was the case in the 60's and 70's. Schools should be compulsory to install a basic education of the three R's. After this is achieved, another way should be found to progress those pupils, who clearly are not suited to an academic education. In my school days we were given lessons in woodwork and metalwork. I'm not saying these subjects are as relevent today, but surely non academic subjects could be promoted to these pupils. This could be done from a fairly early age.

Edited by ianash on Monday 23 March 20:31