Tropical Fishys

[fozthedevil]

Hey all,

right, as of tonight/ tomorrow i should have my tropical tank up and running i have the 35l biube tank ( soon to be changed to a pure with the clear lid so i can see the top )

anyway im looking to get a siamese fighting fish as i love the colors and the movement of them, personally think they are stunning ( to be honnest the main reason i got the tank!) question is what will go ok with them? or is it best to leave him on his own, i know that barbs and angels wont go with him but wil a shark?

or what have you got and what colors?

[tenohfive]

In a 35L tank you won't get away with anything as big as angels, barbs or any of the flavours of shark. 35L is a very small tank and (apart from the betta/siamese fighting fish) nothing you've mentioned there is suitable in that size tank.

The good news is that a single male betta will be perfectly fine in a tank that size. You could also get away with a school of pygmy corydoras or half a dozen ember tetras - I've kept embers with a betta before now in a similarly sized tank and it was a good combination.

I gather you're fairly new to the hobby, is the tank cycled? If you've no idea what I'm talking about have a read of the links below:

http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=2719...
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=1753...

[fozthedevil]

the tanks new, but i do have the media stone in there, i was just planning to get it up running tonight with the water and aqua safe, and introducing a few plants tomorrow leaving it a week and getting my fighter......guess thats not right

a guy at work suggest putting prime in there and then waiting a few days and it be fine

[tenohfive]

There are a lot of misconceptions still doing the rounds in fish keeping. Prime helps a cycle but it doesn't instantly cycle the tank.

Do you know anyone else with an established tank and filter? If so, pinch some of their filter media and put it in your own filter (not sure what Biorbs/Biubes use filter wise, if it's an internal that'll work.) That's the only guaranteed way to instantly cycle the tank, despite what a lot of wonder products claim.

[therealpigdog]

I personally wouldn't go for Pygmy corys as they prefer sand to the ceramic substrate. Male fighter and a few neons? That's what we have in our biorb (60l).

Biubes should be cycled for a couple of weeks - ignore the manual. Get an API test kit and keep an eye on ammonia levels.

Just bought my folks a bi-ube - looks interesting. As long as you accept it's limitations they are fine - ignore some of the haters on forums - just dont overstock. One fighter and four or five tetras is plenty.

[tenohfive]

Forgot they come with that ceramic substrate - personally I'd ditch it and go with play sand, use it in all my tanks and I like the look of it.

2 weeks to do a fishless cycle though? Shortest I've heard is 3-4 weeks, and often more. And that's doing it properly. But I agree on the API freshwater master test kit, it's well regarded and lasts forever. Just make sure it's the liquid drop based kit - the strips are unreliable.

Oh, and I wouldn't keep neons (or any other schooling fish) in anything less than a group of 6. Same as most schooling fish, their best behaviour comes out when they're in a bigger group and they deal with stress better as they feel more secure.

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Par...

Edited by tenohfive on Saturday 9th April 08:40

[therealpigdog]

If you change the substrate to sand, you'll need to put a different filter in as it is essentially an undergravel filter.

[ShiggyBiggs]

fozthedevil said:

the tanks new, but i do have the media stone in there, i was just planning to get it up running tonight with the water and aqua safe, and introducing a few plants tomorrow leaving it a week and getting my fighter......guess thats not right

a guy at work suggest putting prime in there and then waiting a few days and it be fine

I dont really think you need aqua safe or any of that stuff. Just need to cycle it for a few days or whatever really I would have thought.

[tenohfive]

ShiggyBiggs said:

fozthedevil said:

the tanks new, but i do have the media stone in there, i was just planning to get it up running tonight with the water and aqua safe, and introducing a few plants tomorrow leaving it a week and getting my fighter......guess thats not right

a guy at work suggest putting prime in there and then waiting a few days and it be fine

I dont really think you need aqua safe or any of that stuff. Just need to cycle it for a few days or whatever really I would have thought.

You do need Aquasafe or some sort of dechlorinator. Without it unless you've got hardy fish you'll end up with no biological filtration - and even they won't be healthy. Chlorine in tap water kills nitrifying bacteria. Nitrifying bacteria is essential as it breaks down the ammonia and nitrite that come from fish waste breaking down - both of which are poisonous to fish.

And 'cycling it for a few days' will do very little. It takes around 4 weeks for the nitrifying bacteria to build up in filter media whether doing a fish in or fishless cycle. If you want a healthy tank and want your fish to have a decent chance of all surviving you need to cycle the tank properly. Unfortunately the bulk of people who have kept fish look at you blankly when talking about cycling but it's a basic fact of fishkeeping nowadays. Unfortunately whether through ignorance or simply to make a sale an awful lot of pet shops/fish stores don't tell people how to properly cycle a tank.

Pigdog: your right, I forgot Biorbs/Biubes use UGF. I've always steered clear of them - they look nice but other than that they're poorly designed tanks for a number of reasons.

ETA a favourite quote from an unknown fishkeeper on another forum:

unknown fishkeeper said:

Biorbs come with a fool proof cycle system so no need to worry....its called, "my fish is dead...don't know why, seemed fine...anyway, bought a new one...seems happy"

Edited by tenohfive on Saturday 9th April 16:25

[therealpigdog]

Bi-orbs/bi-ubes are only poorly designed in the same way as sports cars - not good for putting lots of people and stuff in. They're just a different approach - ok, so impractical if you have a family of four and intend to pull a caravan. Understand their limitations and they can be great tanks.

[tenohfive]

therealpigdog said:

Bi-orbs/bi-ubes are only poorly designed in the same way as sports cars - not good for putting lots of people and stuff in. They're just a different approach - ok, so impractical if you have a family of four and intend to pull a caravan. Understand their limitations and they can be great tanks.

I'm not sure I agree. Sports cars have various features other than just looks - Biorbs don't. You have no choice on filtration, limited choice on substrate and poor surface area so restricted gaseous exchange. They're about the only tanks I know of that have those restrictions (stupid wall tanks notwithstanding.) The only thing they have going for them is their looks.

That's not to say you can't keep fish in them - just not as many fish (and species) as equivalent tanks.

[therealpigdog]

tenohfive said:

I'm not sure I agree. Sports cars have various features other than just looks - Biorbs don't. You have no choice on filtration, limited choice on substrate and poor surface area so restricted gaseous exchange. They're about the only tanks I know of that have those restrictions (stupid wall tanks notwithstanding.) The only thing they have going for them is their looks.

That's not to say you can't keep fish in them - just not as many fish (and species) as equivalent tanks.

I think we'll probably agree to disagree. It's perfectly possible to change the filtration and substrate (just as with any tank - it is just that if you change the substrate then you have to change the filtration method). The restricted surface area point is debateable because it is ignoring things such as gaseous saturation levels and the increased surface area due to the nature of the filtration (as opposed to many low output internal filters sold on similar sized set ups - especially where there is no spray bar to increase the aereation (speeling?)).

Their looks are a major factor in it - and yes, they are impractical in certain ways - but that does not mean that they are bad tanks, or that they are badly designed. Things do not have to be designed for optimum efficiency to be well designed - and for many people looks do play an important part in their choice. My old smart roadster could only carry 2 people, whereas my estate car can carry five people and dogs - performance levels are similar in most other respects (0-60, mpg etc). That point alone does not make the roadster badly designed - it is all about understanding the limitations and living with them. The point that I will accept is that bi-orbs are often 'missold' due to people in fish shops telling you that you can have just as many fish in them, whereas I cannot imagine a car salesman ever telling a customer that a smart roadster would make a great family car.

[tenohfive]

therealpigdog said:

It's perfectly possible to change the filtration and substrate (just as with any tank - it is just that if you change the substrate then you have to change the filtration method).

Changing the filtration method is a bit of an issue though isn't it, as (more so with biorbs than biubes) fitting in an internal filter isn't very practical. Externals are an option but hiding the piping etc is somewhat more difficult as (correct me if I'm wrong on this) you can't fit a background, and I'm not sure how well you could attach the inlet/outlets to the side of a curved tank wall. So the aesthetics are ruined if you go for anything other than the stock filter - and aesthetics are the main seller of this sort of tank. No background is also an issue IMO as having an open tank with no background makes it more difficult for fish to feel secure.

My biggest issue with them is this lack of flexibility - with 90% of other makes you can upgrade, chop and change etc to either deal with issues, increase your options or simply to make the tank a better environment for the fish you're keeping. With the Biorb you're to a very large degree locked into the Biorb way. For people new to the hobby I firmly believe that flexibility from the start is paramount.

These tanks are often missold IMO - to quote from the Biorb website in reference to their 30L Biorb,
"it is ideal for most types of fish keeping."
Which is frankly very far from the truth - with any 30L fish tank there is only a small number of species that can be kept in there. AGoing back to your Smart car analogy, that is exactly the same as saying, "it's an ideal family car." The difference being that anyone can see a Smart only has two seats, whereas people new to fishkeeping rarely know the finer points of stocking, filtration, surface area and generally what to look for when buying a tank.

I agree that if you know what you're doing then it can be used to keep fish successfully, but the vast majority of people buying these tanks don't know what they're doing. I may be a little cynical from having spent a fair amount of time on other forums correcting bad advice given to new fish keepers (many of whom bought Biorbs) so apologies if this comes out as a rant - it's not directed at you, more the marketing of this tank. And it's poorly designed for "most types of fishkeeping" which is why I'm of the opinion it's badly designed for that purpose.

Edited by tenohfive on Monday 11th April 14:21

[therealpigdog]

tenohfive said:

Changing the filtration method is a bit of an issue though isn't it, as (more so with biorbs than biubes) fitting in an internal filter isn't very practical. Externals are an option but hiding the piping etc is somewhat more difficult as (correct me if I'm wrong on this) you can't fit a background, and I'm not sure how well you could attach the inlet/outlets to the side of a curved tank wall. So the aesthetics are ruined if you go for anything other than the stock filter - and aesthetics are the main seller of this sort of tank. No background is also an issue IMO as having an open tank with no background makes it more difficult for fish to feel secure.

My biggest issue with them is this lack of flexibility - with 90% of other makes you can upgrade, chop and change etc to either deal with issues, increase your options or simply to make the tank a better environment for the fish you're keeping. With the Biorb you're to a very large degree locked into the Biorb way. For people new to the hobby I firmly believe that flexibility from the start is paramount.

These tanks are often missold IMO - to quote from the Biorb website in reference to their 30L Biorb,
"it is ideal for most types of fish keeping."
Which is frankly very far from the truth - with any 30L fish tank there is only a small number of species that can be kept in there. AGoing back to your Smart car analogy, that is exactly the same as saying, "it's an ideal family car." The difference being that anyone can see a Smart only has two seats, whereas people new to fishkeeping rarely know the finer points of stocking, filtration, surface area and generally what to look for when buying a tank.

I agree that if you know what you're doing then it can be used to keep fish successfully, but the vast majority of people buying these tanks don't know what they're doing. I may be a little cynical from having spent a fair amount of time on other forums correcting bad advice given to new fish keepers (many of whom bought Biorbs) so apologies if this comes out as a rant - it's not directed at you, more the marketing of this tank. And it's poorly designed for "most types of fishkeeping" which is why I'm of the opinion it's badly designed for that purpose.

Edited by tenohfive on Monday 11th April 14:21

We're probably not that far apart - I agree with you completely on how they are marketed, which is wholly inappropriate. Pictures of a 30l tank with a couple of orandas, or 10-12 tropicals are just irresponsible. Like all nano-tanks, they should not be marketed as community tanks. If only the manufacturer respected this, they probably wouldn't have such negative reviews.

And yes, they do have an Apple-eque 'tie-in' - but as a stand alone unit, I think the design is pretty neat, especially the intelligent LED lighting system. I can't see the point of upgrading anything, but then again the tank meets my needs, and probably wouldn't recomend upgrading, as you say, it would be easier/cheaper to go down the more traditional route - besides, if you need an external filter on a 30/60l tank, then you probably need a bigger tank!

I've got a 60l Bi-orb and 35l Bi-Ube as 'show tanks' for my male siamese fighters - all 'managed' to keep the fish healthy. That said, for my 'regular' fishkeeping I have a variety of different sized tanks using more traditional methods. All breeding, community, specials and bigger fish get the requisite space, filtration, substrate etc to meet their requirements. The last thing I would want to do is create an unhealthy environment for my fish (or recomend that anyone else did the same). I just needed some smallish tanks for my fighters and felt that these were quite attractive tanks which meant that they could be on display rather than tucked away with my other tanks.

I didn't take your posts as rants - hopefully you haven't taken mine as similar (or worse trolling) - you certainly do seem to know your stuff on this and don't mean any disrespect. We probably agree that for beginners, the bigger the tank the better - so best to avoid all Bi-Orbs/Nano-Tanks and the like and just get a big six-footer!

[tenohfive]

Completely agree, and for betta show tanks they sound like a good shout. In fact now you've said that I'm tempted to set up another betta tank - although I prefer the looks of the small Arc tanks, theres something quite appealing about the look and overhead luminaire. Missus might kill me though, I'm already hunting for a new living room tank.

And like you said - the bigger the better for a first tank. (For the benefit of the OP or others, with bigger tanks you open your options massively for what you can stock - and because the tank is of higher capacity, any water chemistry problems take longer to kick in so you can manage them better. The bigger the tank the easier you'll find fishkeeping.)

Buying second hand some of the deals you can get are unreal - I've seen two different good condition 6x2x2 tanks (both with stands and filters) being sold for £100-120 near me recently. I've got as many tanks sitting empty as I have got set up just because I've seen them being sold cheap and picked them up just in case. A saved search on ebay for local tanks can lead to some real bargains.

[therealpigdog]

tenohfive said:

Completely agree, and for betta show tanks they sound like a good shout. In fact now you've said that I'm tempted to set up another betta tank - although I prefer the looks of the small Arc tanks, theres something quite appealing about the look and overhead luminaire. Missus might kill me though, I'm already hunting for a new living room tank.

And like you said - the bigger the better for a first tank. (For the benefit of the OP or others, with bigger tanks you open your options massively for what you can stock - and because the tank is of higher capacity, any water chemistry problems take longer to kick in so you can manage them better. The bigger the tank the easier you'll find fishkeeping.)

Buying second hand some of the deals you can get are unreal - I've seen two different good condition 6x2x2 tanks (both with stands and filters) being sold for £100-120 near me recently. I've got as many tanks sitting empty as I have got set up just because I've seen them being sold cheap and picked them up just in case. A saved search on ebay for local tanks can lead to some real bargains.

+1

[Hysteria1983]

I had a biorb for a few years, before I was serious about fishkeeping.

I kept a few zebras and tetras in there and that was it, they didn't do much, and as much as I still have my zebras now (going strong on 4 years old) their personality didn't really come out until they got put in my 350L.

If you want some proper fish, get a proper tank. I know that sems like crappy advice, but the biorb market is mostly just for show, rather than fishkeeping.
You cannot really change anything with regards to filteration and lighting, and because of the shape of the tank you will struggle to get a heater in a good position, and you cant really have a background.

The shape also produces distorted views of the fish, so you never really get a good look at them, and the poor surface area is unhealthy for the fish.

Oh and on a side note, a beta probably won't like this biube if the filter is the same as a biorb, as they tend to like the wather quite still, and I recall that the biorb had quite a feirce outlet of bubbles.